I'm kind of torn. I love my 500 Jeffery and could have CZ put a synthetic stock on it for about $400, or I could get a synthetic stainless Weatherby Vanguard in 300 Weatherby for not much more. The 375 Ruger Alaskan or Remingtion XCR in 375 H&H are other choices. I've got about 3 years before I can afford to go, just pondering the choices ...



Chuck

In the past thirty some odd years I have seen a lot of bears taken with a lot of different calibers and personally killed bears the 30-06, 9.3x62, 9.5x62, .375 H&H, .375 Ruger, .416 Rem, .458 Win and .505 Gibbs. I have a good idea of how big bears react when shot.

In my experience how well the client shoots is the single most important factor in killing any animal. And, contrary to what a lot of hunters claim, I have never met a person who could shoot a heavy rifle as well as a lighter caliber - unless they couldn't shoot either well. If it were possible then olympic target shooters, and prairie dog shooters would all use large bore rifles as they allow for a larger margin of error.

Second, assuming proper shot placement, bullet performance is of more importance than bore size or power.

And finally, IF the hunter is comfortable and confident with a big bore rifle, then I too recommend they bring it but - 99% of the time, when clients brings big bore rifles they can not shoot them well.

We are not arguing about which caliber puts bears down quickest. the 505 wins that argument hands down - but what caliber the average bear hunting client should use. A gut shot bear with a .375, 416 or 458 is a lot more dangerous to everybody than one with a 180 or 200 grain .30 caliber bullet through both lungs.

weve heard the guide take on the 30 cal and im not argueing with anything said if you are with a guide, but if you are hunting alone think about this. within 10 miles from where im setting right now in 2009 ther were at least 7 brown beat attacks that i know of , most made the news or inernet, 3 unarmed women swatted ,2 guys (from best they can figure )woke sleeping bear one got bit and got off a shot w 3006 it ran off so he's not sure if it was hit .the other guy killed a 9' 6" monster at about 8 feet w 3006 shooting from hip ran reload shoot some more. i think his first shot hit it rite in the teeth( ill have to ask him and im not sure he knows for sure) another killed by f&g, and one shoulder shot with 338 378 bullet failure 160 gr , charged and had to be shot again. that was 2009.
most stories ive heard in years past bears shot with 30 and smaller run off , locals for the most part dont hunt bears but jump one at about 10 or 15 feet or call one in.most see a bear lookin at them for 10 ft just shoot i havnt heard anybody say he was thinking shot placement
one guy was charged by a sow and 3 big cubs killed them all with a 338 the cubs will charge too and 2yr olds arnt small .
i had some leg bones from a 9+ bear that i tested some 3006 loads on, at about 50 feet box full of dry news paper with legbone in front . the 06 blew the bone allapart just fine but all the bullets disengrated and didnt penetrate more than a a few pages of news paper. none were premium bullets
like clint said "you gotta know your limitations"
and i heard the guy who shot the 9'6" bought a 338

Gentlemen;

When you have two people on this thread with a lot of bear hunting experience, it is wise to head their advise...

I have not met 458 Win in person, but his reputation is well known...

I have met and spent some time with Akshooter., and he is a down to earth, no nonsence kind of guy. SO WHEN these two fellas with a lot of AK experience agree, it is worth taking note....


I can also say, that Akshooter can cook KING CRAB to perfection...
As well as Florida Gator....

Over the years I've spent a bunch of time with guides from SE and guides who've worked a bunch down there, the've all said the same thing. SE is the bear wounding capital of the state. Maybe its because of the jungle tight to the beach which makes follow-up shots near impossible,maybe because of the jungle bears don't show up until people are on top of them,maybe its because a person who books a boat hunt is not up to the rigors of a hardcore bear hunt and hasn't trained & shot in preparation of the hunt,possibly residents aren't used to SEEING bears roaming around most of the time and get rattled when 1 jumps up at 15'. Whatever the reason is maybe a 416 would work better but it didn't help the guide who got chewed up a few years ago. Possibly hunting from skiffs and getting close to a bear a couple times a year doesn't take the edge off like a penisula guide or hunter who lives with the bears for the duration or there hunt or season. Maybe the bears that were wounded due to poor shooting with 30cals are meaner and a bigger rifle is needed to subdue their killer instinct, but I still know a 30-06 or 300 would bring the nastiest bear SE has to offer to a stop posthaste.

the starter of this tread was strapped for money so ,no i wouldnt buy another gun, just being unfamiliar with it is enuf reason.
but i dont see the 338 bein anymore difficult to master than the 300.
around anchorage an southcentral the 300 is almost a standard.
i southeast on the islands the 338 is so common you can always pick up a used stainless for 3 or 4 hundred .
at the rifle range most anyone shooting somethin bigger than 338 even just a 340 375 is more likely a gun nut type that shoots a lot as well as hunts a lot. now i dont know if being a guide or assitant makes you a crack shot, but most carry 375 or 458 funny thing i almost never see these guys at the range , onece in a while out with a client sighting in. but i only know one that is a regular at the range.
now waterrat mentioned wounded bears.
of the bears i mentioned earlier 2 of them had bullet wounds
the one shot w 338-378 had 2 healed over probably 223 holes in abdomen, and it was really pissed when it got shot again
the guys skinning the 9'6" one found a couple bullets under the hide, it was killed with an 06 but one of the recovered ones was 375, and he did upgrade to a 338

Just goes to show, a bigger magnum doesn't help if you don't shoot it as well as your 30-06 or 300 Mag. Still have to hit it in the right place ...


Chuck

In the brush in Southeast . If you see a bear , that may be the only time you will see it ,it might spend all day within 50 yards of you , but if it was a sleeping 992 Cat end loader you couldn,t see it either ...Unless a bear is out on a grass flat , putting the sneak on one is by and large a pipe dream . Blufin and Calgary Chef have posted some good pics of the terrain as did another member who hunted with Dale Adams ..... Theres the beach , and the wall . thats where the timber starts .. If it,s healthy vigorus timber with a sealed tight canopy there won,t be much brush and other vegetation on the forest floor which generally means your shots can be as far as 150 yards away in a rare case , but mostly will be within 100 feet or so ... Big bears are big , but when they walk behind a 5ft diameter spruce tree that is stooled up and is 15ft across at the base , well you get the idea ... If the timber is over ripe typical old growth , there are plenty of dead trees "snags" , snags let in alot of light which allows a very vigorus ground cover to grow .. Fuckle berry brush . young spruce and hemlock regeneration , salmon berry , devils clup .and skunk cabbage ....It is pretty much a jungle ...... when you can see a bear may be the only time you see that bear .......... Also as there are plenty of deer hunters in Southeast who are 06 commanders , they get deer taken away from them which really doesn,t help other people deal with that bear ....... Most people in the brown bear areas of southeast get Very used to having bears around them all the time ....... Not alot of people hunt brown bear in Southeast , most people try to avoid bears and the bears know when they can push someone around .. They will follow you around , stalk you , they can and do remember where you normally go and will meet you along the way if you commonly spend alot of time there ...... From what I,ve learned of Penninsula bears , most of the time no one is in their area unless they are there to kill a bear ... Bears figure that out so there is more fear of humans in those areas ......... Most Southeast brown bear arn,t too scared of people .. Bears learn that people can,t see after dark ........... But bears have 1 failing that is real helpful if you are well prepared ....
They love an easy meal ....... If they havn,t winded you a deer distress call will get them moving thru the brush often to try to pick up the scent , or just flat charging out to snatch up lunch ......... In southeast , you gotta be able to see the bears .. the brush is so thick , you can,t !!. Knowing you are trying to find a wounded bear is all the world different than going deer hunting , or mushroom picking , berry picking ect .......
.It,s pretty much the height of blank blank for people with no experience in an area to claim that what experienced people in that area do is wrong ........
.
.If an 06 or 300 was a half decent bear round , I would use one ...
.
The 06 is considered a minimum bear round and is considered a kids or ladies round .... If something goes wrong , which is about 50%,, a man with a real bear rifle should be there to solve the problem ... I guess that is why people hire guides ......

Oh , and the guide who got chewed up on the south end of Admarilty that had follow up shot that bear with his 416 , that bear had been wounded by his clients 300 ....... Did the guide then go and buy a 300 so he could shoot better , No , his shooting was not at fault as after mauling the guide the bear dropped dead .. That guide got a 458 LOTT .. Heres the thing ... The client was so freaked out by that bear not falling down by his great 300 ,,,,and the guides 416 that he wouldn,t even step inside the beach fringe to help the guide after the bear died ..............

.. So , to beat a dead horse a little more .. The 30 cal will work fine if everything else works fine .. If something goes wrong it ain,t gonna work so good ......Caliber doesn,t make up for bad shooting . but a small caliber and good shooting doesn,t make up for things going wrong ....
.
. ...
. I,ve been thinking about it again so now I,m poed again ... Layne Simpson had an article in Shooting Times or Rifle , or some mag. a few yrs ago ... He sighted bears killed per shot . It was written down in a log book at someones guide camp on the Penn. if I remember correctly .. The small bore guys like to bandy that about as the 30 cal.s are easier to shoot and so they are the best .... What he failed to mention is those bears were all open country bears , Trust me this northern brush isn,t thick brush. And how long every bear that was shot , and ran into the brush was allowed to bleed out before anyone went in to find it .. Like the next day or something .......... Or were the bears followed up much sooner and a finisher shot used because the bear was still breathing ...........

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
In the past thirty some odd years I have seen a lot of bears taken with a lot of different calibers and personally killed bears the 30-06, 9.3x62, 9.5x62, .375 H&H, .375 Ruger, .416 Rem, .458 Win and .505 Gibbs. I have a good idea of how big bears react when shot.

In my experience how well the client shoots is the single most important factor in killing any animal. And, contrary to what a lot of hunters claim, I have never met a person who could shoot a heavy rifle as well as a lighter caliber - unless they couldn't shoot either well. If it were possible then olympic target shooters, and prairie dog shooters would all use large bore rifles as they allow for a larger margin of error.

Second, assuming proper shot placement, bullet performance is of more importance than bore size or power.

And finally, IF the hunter is comfortable and confident with a big bore rifle, then I too recommend they bring it but - 99% of the time, when clients brings big bore rifles they can not shoot them well.

We are not arguing about which caliber puts bears down quickest. the 505 wins that argument hands down - but what caliber the average bear hunting client should use. A gut shot bear with a .375, 416 or 458 is a lot more dangerous to everybody than one with a 180 or 200 grain .30 caliber bullet through both lungs.

I think THAT pretty much say's it all!

quote:

Originally posted by gumboot458:
.. So , to beat a dead horse a little more .. The 30 cal will work fine if everything else works fine .. If something goes wrong it ain,t gonna work so good ......Caliber doesn,t make up for bad shooting . but a small caliber and good shooting doesn,t make up for things going wrong ....
.
. ...
. I,ve been thinking about it again so now I,m poed again ... Layne Simpson had an article in Shooting Times or Rifle , or some mag. a few yrs ago ... He sighted bears killed per shot . It was written down in a log book at someones guide camp on the Penn. if I remember correctly .. The small bore guys like to bandy that about as the 30 cal.s are easier to shoot and so they are the best .... What he failed to mention is those bears were all open country bears , Trust me this northern brush isn,t thick brush. And how long every bear that was shot , and ran into the brush was allowed to bleed out before anyone went in to find it .. Like the next day or something .......... Or were the bears followed up much sooner and a finisher shot used because the bear was still breathing ...........

Gumboot, you may be right. I saw that article, and thought it was Craig Boddington, but now that I think about it, I think it was Layne.
I believe he said that the only one shot stop was with a .270 as well. And as caliber size increased, so did the number of shots taken to stop the Bears. But they were all about the clients shots, which goes to show that most clients come unprepared for the bigger bores.
I know for myself, a good .375 is the largest I am able to shoot as easily as a .243. As soon as I cross over to a .416, I have to hold my tongue just right. So, I stop at the .375s.
Cheers!

quote:

Originally posted by gumboot458:
......Caliber doesn,t make up for bad shooting . but a small caliber and good shooting doesn,t make up for things going wrong ....
.
........

In my experience GOOD SHOOTING ALWAYS FIXES THINGS THAT ARE GOING WRONG

Some random thoughts:

When I took my B. & C. B.B., my Guide had been mauled the year before. Originally, I wanted to take my Winchester Classic Stainless Pre 64 with BOSS in .30-06, a 3/4 MOA gun with Factory ammo. The guide said too small, I won't take you get a bigger gun.

I then found a lightly used German Weatherby in .300. I called back, he would not take me with that either.

I then bought a new Stainless/Sythetic Mark V Weatherby in .340. I thought this would be plenty of gun, as it hits like Thor's hammer. long Story short I hit him 4 times in the chest, knocking him down each time and emptying the gun. He then gets up a fifth time and starts running like a thoroughbred going uphill toward 10' high alder thicket. I threw one in the chamber and hit him in the neck with the last shot. He dies in mid air, half in and half out of the alder thicket. Each bound he was taking was huge.

I have it all on video too.

Based on the above. I shoot all 3 of the above guns equally well. If you do not want to shoot the bigger gun due to recoil, you need to:

put a recoil pad on it
put a brake on it
shoot it more, until you are used to it.

Use the biggest gun that you can handle. That is the best thing to do for the animal, the guide and you and the money you spent on the hunt. Although, a .30 cal can get the job done, I consider it the bear minimum for that hunt. In my situation with a .30-06 or ,300 Wthby, the bear would have made it into the Alders, not good.

The 340 is a great bear killer for sure. What bullets were you using in the 340 and after skinning the bear exactly where did they hit and how did they perform?
Bears are not bullet proof - although as this and many other stories indicate they sometimes act like it if not hit correctly - but I have never seen one that was correctly hit that lived long. Although they can get into the pucker brush amazingly fast, even with fatal wounds.

As for muzzle brakes - there are a lot more guide in this world who refuse to guide hunters with sissy slots on their rifle than those who will refuse to guide a hunter using a 30-06.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
The 340 is a great bear killer for sure. What bullets were you using in the 340 and after skinning the bear exactly where did they hit and how did they perform?
Bears are not bullet proof - although as this and many other stories indicate they sometimes act like it if not hit correctly - but I have never seen one that was correctly hit that lived long. Although they can get into the pucker brush amazingly fast, even with fatal wounds.

As for muzzle brakes - there are a lot more guide in this world who refuse to guide hunters with sissy slots on their rifle than those who will refuse to guide a hunter using a 30-06.

I went with the .340 over the .375 HH because I thought I could use the .340 as an elk, or Moose gun and likely would never use the .375 again.

Well, I am glad that I have high quality VHS video taken of it. Last year I had it transferred to DVD. It is just like being there. You can count the seconds from the first shot, till the last. The reload was lightning fast, if I do say so myself, courtesy of a buttstock shell holder.

Dan Montgomery and some of his guides saw it as well, the last time I was in their camp and they too said it was the biggest thing they ever saw. They watched it 3 times. In 2009 they took the new World Record Muzzle loader Brwn bear. They know bears.

I used Weatherby Factory ammo with 250 Gr. N.P.. I did recover one of the bullets, perfect mushroom, found in the skin on the far side of the animal. One of the exit holes in his lower chest was big enough to fit my size 8 hiking boot in.

In my opinion, the 10' plus bears are a different animal than the 8-9' foot bears and are much hard to kill. They can absorb much more punishment.

I had a 2.5-8X VX3, range was abotu 230-240 yards. This was the year before Bushmell released their first laser rnge finder, or I would have had one.

I have only taken two animals that required more than one shot. My hunts are alomst always one shot affairs. I train oftern and pride myself on my marksmanship.

As for the sissy slots, I wear ear plugs an dmake sure my guide has a pair as well. I see nothing wrong with using a piece of equipment that will improve your shooting. In fact, it is the smart and ethical thing to do. No different than using a Range finder, or Kestrel to give you info' to help your shot. It is fair to say I have been on a fedw hunts and am yet to have an Outfitter deny to take me, due to my Muzzle Brake and I do inform them of that and the specifcs of my set up before I book with them. We will have to agree, to disagree on that.

As for the Autopsy, both shoulders were broken with the first shot and again with the follow up shots, the hard, lungs and liver were all hit as well. The boar was dead on it's feet, but just did not know it. I do not understand to this day how the bear was able to walk, let along run uphill at battle speed.

The fifth and final shot hit at the top of the C Spine, where it does into the skull. The bullet did leave a graze on the lwer back part of the skull itself, which I had mounted on a plaque.

D. & C. Expediters in Anchorage prepped it for travel and told me that was the largest bodied Boar they ever had in their shop, as did a Master Outfitter who was in their shop and saw it too. I have not been to a show, SCI, SHOT, etc. where I have seen a larger bodied bear than this one. It is much larger than the 10'4" bear taken on Hitchinbrook Island, of internet fame. There was no internet when I took that bear, or no one would even be talking about the Hitchinbrook bear. My bear would have eaten that one.

It sounds like you killed a super trophy.
I am not doubting any of your story but you said that your first shot broke both front shoulders and then your second shot broke them both a second time and the following shots also took out the heart, lungs and liver yet the bear was still able to get up and sprint uphill. That was one unbelievably tough bear.
What was it's skull size as measured by AK F&G or B&C? And who did your mount?

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
It sounds like you killed a super trophy.
I am not doubting any of your story but you said that your first shot broke both front shoulders and then your second shot broke them both a second time and the following shots also took out the heart, lungs and liver yet the bear was still able to get up and sprint uphill. That was one unbelievably tough bear.
What was it's skull size as measured by AK F&G or B&C? And who did your mount?

I waited for the first shot, to present the perfect angle. The Outfitter was saying all thru the video to keep shooting. I beleive the first shot broke both shoulders and took out the top of the heart. Just what I was looking for and a perfect shot. I never thought he could get up from the first shot, or the second shot, or the third shot, or the fourth shot.

If I did not see all these things with my own eyes, I would not beleive it and still can not uderstand how that bear could get up five times and still run at top speed uphill with all that damage. It is some exciting video and like sitting next to me, as it unfolds.

I retired from Brwn bear hunting after that, even though I have had a couple good opporunties to go again. It would be pointless, I could never find another bear close to this one. While I am usually a numbers guy all about the score, that bear was just what I was looking for and taken on the first day. There was another bear near this one well over 9' and I passed him up to try for the alpha male.

If memory serves right, I got a post card about 15 months later from AK F&G saying the bear was over 20 years old, from the tooth they pulled and I think they scored it 28 1/2"? I do know for sure that SCI was 28" 3/16 and B and C was 28" 1/16 85 days later. I should have scored on on the 60th day, yound and dumb at the time. 1 st trip to AK and did not know any better.

That bear was like a tank and could absorb punishment like I would not have beleived, if I did not see it with my own eyes and I am very glad I insisted on the Outfitter doing video instead of shooting. I thought it would be a one shot affair.

The house I had at the time had tall ceilings, but only a 36" front door. The stomach girth was 81", he would not fit inside the house. The Smithsonian and Cabela's both offered to take the bear from me. I heard from Cabela's again about 1 year ago.

The bear is inside a refrigerator, tanned, but still not mounted. The house I have now only has 8' ceilings, except near the fron door were I have 13', which would barely fit with a pedestal. I did not have the heart to mae a rug out of a bear that size, seems criminal. He needs to be life size mounted, standing up to do him justice, like you see at the shows.

You know I respect you, but after seeing that, I do not recomend guys to take marginal calibers on that type of hunt. Plenty of gun, does give a margin of safety and success. Who wants the guide to shoot their bear?

That was a good expiriance and I see why after that, you would feel like any desire for an Alaskan bear would have been satisfied.

I have seen this happen with smaller bears as well, They have tenacity equalled by none other.

If a guy can shoot a heavy rifle well and is willing to carry it why not.

I feel fairly certain that had your bear made it into the brush without that last shot you would have found him dead by the time you got there. Also had that final shot been from a .30 cal rifle in the brain stem I think it would have anchored it just as fast.

It is because bears are big and tuff that I say you need to approach making a shot on a big boar as though everything needs to be perfect similar to the mindset of a bow hunter.

It won't surprise a bow hunter when a deer runs after a properly placed arrow, The important thing is placing the arrow properly.

Would a bow hunter shooting a 55 pound bow say "I need a 70 pound bow because my 55 lb bow makes them run" I don't think so.

The peception that the deer hunter gets on his first bear kill will almost allways be that he needs a bigger gun because "that bear did'nt drop right there like all the deer I shoot"

Actully for a bear hunter with little expirance that bigger gun can give a false since of ones ability to get the job done. Your advantage over the bear on your hunt is your brain. You will be far better off useing that, than trying to muscel your way with a bigger gun

I'm not promoting everyone who go'es on a brown bear hunt take his favorite deer rifle. There is a limit to how effective good shooting can be when the bullet can't even make it into the vitals. One time I had a Swedish hunter show up with a 6.5x55 for his bear. I said no but I have an extra .375 you can use. That guy got a 9&1/2 foot bear and I'm glad he used the .375.

I do reccomend that a hunter bring a .375 or .338 if they have one. Most hunters can shoot them especially the ones that allready have them. For the guy who tells me he likes his .300 and shoots it well and its his favorite gun I'll tell him bring it on.

The point is MAKE THE SHOT COUNT. For some and I won't say most but for some this will be best served with a lessor rifle.

One other point to think about. The muzzel energy of a good handloaded 200gr. bullet from a .300 magnum will be looking real hard at 4000lbs A good handloaded 300 gr. bullet from a .375 will give you 4500 lbs from the muzzel.

Now thats the differance between a bee sting and getting run over by a tank.

Cold Zero, great informative story and a fantastic trophy. Congratulations. Stories like yours show just how tough and tenacious out big bears can be.
I may be a bit old fashioned but I have shot a few bears and seen a lot more die and from my experience there is not as much difference between a 220 gr .308 dia bullet and a 250gr .338 bullet as most folks imagine. My experiences have taught me that a properly placed 200-220 Partition, Swift or TSX from a 30-06 or any of the various 300's is all that is required to safely and successfully hunt any bear.
Now if someone feels better carrying something larger and can handle it I certainly won't argue with them but - as I said in my earlier piece with the photo of last season's bear - anyone who tells me that a 30-06 is not enough for bears either has not used one or is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.

Those comments are for sport hunters and, as your story so well illustrates, a guide who absolutely might have to stop a wounded bear ( as opposed to simply killing it) I recommend nothing smaller than a .375 and, since I scare easily, I prefer my .458 or .505

Thank you.

Although, I have went goat hunting, I did not take one. I hear the larger Goats are also like tanks and if you do not anchor them, they jump off the nearest cliff, which would horrify me. Neck shot.

Although, I shoot magnums for most of my hunts. I am not a magnum snob. I love the .30-06 and think with the right load you can take all N.A. has to offer with it.

I understand that for those who handload there are now 250 gr. bullets for the .30-06. I think a .30-06 250 Gr NP in a premium load from a co like Federal, etc. would be a very good seller. It would pound the day lights out of Black bear over bait, Moose or Elk in the Timber, etc. A 200 Gr NP is a good compromise to do all with. But, it would be nice to have the option of a 250 gr bullet. Factory loading with 220 gr bullets are few and far between with poor quality bullets.

I once shot a 300 lb. Whitetail in Saskat'. I was going to shoot him in the chest, but at 50 yds. that was just too easy. I shot him in the neck with a .300 Wthby and 200 gr. bullet. He dropped where he was standing, in the bait pile and was dead before he hit the ground. When he was skinned out, I saw that the Weatherby Hornady Round nose bullet had hit the C Spine and fragmented. Poor bullet performance, likely due to the close range and high velocity that the bullet hit at. This is why I like premium bullets only.

Your comments about the difference between .308 and .338 bullets is very interesting. That is a dilema for many new BB hunters and I will defer to your ecperience, since you have so much of it. I guess you are saying that with the .308 200-220 gr bullets you get complete penetration, but the wound channel will still be smaller. I doubt if I would have gotten complete penetration on my bear with a 200 gr NP .30-06, just too wide. The hide was like a wet, rubbery conveyer belt hide that stretched, very tough to puncture.

I know a guy who took the Weatherby .30-378 when it first came out in 1997 BB hunting with 180 gr bullet. He wanted to be the first guy to kill a BB with that rifle. I told him what a poor choice that was and that a 180 gr. bullet was a deer bullet and too small for BB, irregardless of how fast it was going. The recoil was also hellacious and he later ended up selling it due to the recoil, without ever having taken an animal with it. I would have preferred a .30-06 with 200 Gr. N.P. to that Wthby.

Do you agree that the 10' plus bears, take more killing punishment than the smaller 8-9' bears, from your experience ?

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:

Those comments are for sport hunters and, as your story so well illustrates, a guide who absolutely might have to stop a wounded bear ( as opposed to simply killing it) I recommend nothing smaller than a .375 and, since I scare easily, I prefer my .458 or .505

Agreed. There is a big difference between a rifle chosen for a hunter and a Guide's rifle chosen to be a stopper.

If I were a Guide, I would go .416 Rigby or Remington short barrel, with a 400 Gr Woodleigh or the like, Premium bullet, with stainless and synthetic with a 1-4 scope quick detach mounts and a Red Fiber optic front sight.

I'll have to answer that with a definite maybe. i don't know if they are actually tougher or simply so much bigger. An extra foot may not sound like much but if you compare a 5 foot man to a 6 foot man to a 7 foot man you can see that mass virtually doubles each time and it is the same with bears.
Your 10 foot+ boar with 28" skull probably weighed somewhere between 1100 and 1500 pounds and that is a lot bigger than a 700# 8 1/2 to 9 foot bear. Under the right conditions they all can take a pounding

Understood.

Mine was on top of a very Large Bull Roosevelt Elk, it had killed and eaten a large amount of. I'll bet by 31 Oct that this bear was 1,500 lbs just from the Salmon it had eaten and then it killed and ate a couple of hundred pounds of Elk. It was so bloated, it did not want to get up from the Elk and was wateling, as it slowly walked away from the kill. It seemed like it could barely move, until it got shot.

There were several other bears that we were looking down into the valley that were waiting for that bear to finish his turn on the Elk, so they could get on it.

Great story! However i just can't stop thinking about. . . . . . .
The sissy slots!

Well, Phil and Akshooter, I'll be putting the theory to the test in about 8 weeks. I'm headed to south Kodiak (Red Lake) with my 30-06 and 220 NPs. I didn't feel undergunned until I started reading this! I love my 375 but my 06 is a better brush/foul weather gun and has always done fine. I like Akshooter's bow hunting analogy. When (assuming!) I come back I'll report the results.

Bob

Shoot your 06 straight and you'll come back with a bear hide.

quote:

Originally posted by Omnivorous_Bob:
Well, Phil and Akshooter, I'll be putting the theory to the test in about 8 weeks. I'm headed to south Kodiak (Red Lake) with my 30-06 and 220 NPs. I didn't feel undergunned until I started reading this! I love my 375 but my 06 is a better brush/foul weather gun and has always done fine. I like Akshooter's bow hunting analogy. When (assuming!) I come back I'll report the results.

Bob

Bob, place your shots. Be safe and lucky. We await your hunt report.

Bob
On my previous posting I made the comment that a hunter would not be able to "muscel his way with a bigger gun" on a bear.

That 4 bore of yours might be the exception to my statement.

O-Bob I'll be about 40 miles east of you at the same time on my personal bear hunt. We'll compare notes in late May after the guiding season on the Penisula. I'll be using my 358 Norma with 280 swifts.

Pardon me ,thats 40miles WEST!!

Got lucky and drew a spring Grizzly tag. While I could take something 30ish, what better use could there be for my .416 Rem. with 350 TSXs. I shoot my big guns all the time so no worries about shot placement.

cold zero,

would you be willing to post a link to that video you have? i think it would be extremely informative. Perhaps Phil would even be willing to lend some constructive commentary where applicable regarding anything he sees. I think it would be excellent for all of us who wish to someday hunt such a magnificent beast.

Yeah! I want to see this video too! Hopefully you have some photos somewhere that you could post. Congrats on the big brown.

As Phil says, a good penetrating bullet from a .308 will do the job. Check out what standard NATO armour piercing ammo will do at the website below. It is no more powerful than standard FMJ ammo, it just has a tungsten steel core inside the copper jacket. Only 174 grain bullet.

http://www.outlawperformance.com/theplate.htm

Cheers!

Military ammo will certainly kill but because it does not expand at all it required very precise placemeent and if not there is a noticible difference in how fast the animal dies. In addition, due to it's shape, it has a tendancy to vear widely off course when fired from up close, if it hits anything solid or as it slows down. A good heavy for caliber soft nose that holds together will penetrate plenty and kill faster.

Phil,
Since you get asked this question all the time I will ask again. If I come up this year bear hunting, should I bring my .300 Weatherby again or my .375? What bullet for the .375? I assume the same bullet I used for moose would work for bear in the .300 Weatherby. I feel I shoot both guns the same. I do have a new Z6i scope on the .375 that I have not used in the field. So I would prefer the .375

so much good info here, thanks to all who have commented. There is nothing that can take the place of experience. thanks, Tony

quote:

Originally posted by jsl3170:
cold zero,

would you be willing to post a link to that video you have? i think it would be extremely informative. Perhaps Phil would even be willing to lend some constructive commentary where applicable regarding anything he sees. I think it would be excellent for all of us who wish to someday hunt such a magnificent beast.

I lack the skills to do that. It is a great idea. I will seek out some help and see if I can get that done.

He will say I shot it from too far away

I should have listened to the Guide to keep shooting. I was convinced he was done after the first shot and he had no chance to get out of my sight picture. He was never able to take a step,until I ran the gun dry.

I had his number that day and could not miss. Even a running shot over 300 yds, hit where I aimed that day.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
Speculate all you want -- but if you want the facts the bear got into the bushes because the client did not want me to shoot until he had hit it four times - rear leg, guts, ass and high on back - with a bigger rifle that he obviously could not shoot well.

Some gratitude. I hope you at least thanked your client for slowing the bear down for you before sending you into the thick stuff after it!

quote:

Military ammo will certainly kill but because it does not expand at all it required very precise placemeent and if not there is a noticible difference in how fast the animal dies. In addition, due to it's shape, it has a tendancy to vear widely off course when fired from up close, if it hits anything solid or as it slows down. A good heavy for caliber soft nose that holds together will penetrate plenty and kill faster.

I agree completely Mr. Shoemaker. I was attempting to point out that what you say about a 30 cal being enough to penetrate and quickly kill a large Brown bear if the shooter will do their part is true. This Cheechako has 220 Partitions loaded in my .30 cal when I plan on going fishing and taking it along in case I need it. I, and I am sure others, appreciate your honesty and experience and willingness to share it with us.

Cheers!