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The worth of the game animal is in the eye of the shooter. It isn't always about my horns are bigger than your horns | |||
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| One of Us |
I amount of town at the moment. Can this show still be viewed? After reading this, I want to see it. | |||
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| One of Us |
Without even getting into the debate entirely, I have a question. Why is it that on EVERY long range show, they have to be 500+ yards away, before taking the shot? You cannot tell me that they never have opportunities at shots in the 100-300 yard range. So, when these opportunities arise, do the back up a few hundred yards?? | |||
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Not sure Larry, the shows on The Outdoor Channel/Sportsmen Channel roll over on Sunday as I recall. So this week may be a new episode (how exciting). I watched the trailer on The Best of the West website and it did not show the shot. All you really need to see is the last ten minutes of the show. I have it recorded on my DIRECTV DVR but I have no idea how to do anything with it. Mike | |||
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I just wasted 30 minutes of my life watching Best of the West/Gunwerks videos online. To sum up most of the kill shots...well, I guess a hit anywhere in the body is success in the long range world. Buy a rifle, take the class and you to can be the next Carlos Hathcock. | |||
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And at the thousand yard F class match in Worland Wyoming there is a distinct lack of these experts competing........ | |||
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I've wondered about that also. Some of these long distance guys aren't set up for a normal range shots . They seem to only shoot frangible bullets like Berger Hunting VLD or Hornady ELD X. The long range guys never talk about the failures to penetrate. I think the Nosler ABLR is the closest thing to a combination bullet. Expands at long range and somewhat holds tgether at normal to close range. . Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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Just because someone does not play a certain game does not mean they can not shoot. I hear the same between hi power, bench, and any other game that is played with firearms. They all think they are better shooters then the other ones. | |||
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I took that comment to mean that 1000 yard F class winners can't do what some of these long range hunting guys claim, eg, a 1000 yard shot is a "gimme." Frankly, I have been 100 percent on 800 yard shots the past two months with my Lapua (one shot per week, no sighters, but with pretty gentle wind conditions), but I still would not risk a tag on a long range shot, and that is what you are doing in AK if you wound an animal, to say nothing of the price the animal pays, of course. Yesterday I shot at 800 then followed up at 1290 yards. The TOF of a bullet at that range has to be seen to be believed - you can literally shoot, recover from the recoil, get back on the target, and see your bullet splash - with a 338 LM. | |||
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Come on now, poor taste to even think the name Sgt. Carlos Hathcock while discussing these monkey's Have a GREAT NEW YEAR ALL!!  | |||
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Why did you watch it? You should have TURNED IT OFF!!! | |||
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No, these f class shooters WONT shoot at animals at a thousand yards. It's remarkable to watch two guys that have spent their lives shooting for a living completely miss a wind or mirage change and miss the target at a thousand yards. So how many barrels burned out does it take to become an accomplished rifleman at long range? My point is, that these people in Cody Wyoming wont drive a hundred miles to showcase their rifles and talent in public at known distance. | |||
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Cold Trigger Finger.... Please don't compare the ELDx with Berger VLDs. Totally different bullet. I have used each and their terminal results are quite different. Ski+3 | |||
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No they aren't. Not from shooting heavy and/or dangèous game stand point. They both are thin jacketed , not bonded core , cup and core bullets. Designed for rapid expansion. The minor differences they display in soft tissue , if any is not like the difference between either of them and a tough bullet like a TSX, TTSX BT ect. Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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I don't understand this post. How far would the Cody boys go to shoot ? Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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I think what 450AK is saying is that if they can kill game at 1000 yards under field conditions then shooting F class with F class bipods, sighters, wind flags, etc. would be a cinch - and really good PR for their gear, techniques, etc. Personally, I don't like F class for a number of reasons, the primary being hunting is all about being successful on the first shot - reading the conditions, etc. - not shooting 20 to 60 shots. | |||
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Ok, thank you. Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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One of Us |
Absolutely no reason to take a head shot, ever, for sport hunting. I would seriously question it even for subsistence hunters as most of those types are excellent woodsmen and have plenty of opportunity to get closer and put one behind the leg. I've yet to see anyone eat lung or miss the few ounces of rib meat damaged by these shots. Two, bear heads are thick and very sloped. Plenty of chances to have a bullet hit at an oblique angle and cause a horrific, but non-fatal wound. Look at it this way, hunting is not certain. Long range shots are not certain. Even if you're 9 out of 10 on your 500 yard shots, what's the result of the inevitable 10th shot? Will it be 1 less point on a target, or crippling wound on a lost animal? Finally, I look at shooting small animals at long range a little differently. The amount of energy a fast moving .22 brings to a prairie dog is orders of magnitude greater than a .30 caliber bullet brings to a large animal. Miss the head on a prairie dog and rip off the entire side of the body; still a rapid death. Miss the head on a bear, horrible wound that may or may not kill the animal in a reasonable time. | |||
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Wounding a bear at that distance or any at any distance can spell bad news for some poor trapper or indian who gets himself in the wrong place at the wrong time, It happens anywhere DG exists.. Almost all those Alaskan shows today are a disgrace to real Alaskans, and the hunts are contrived, someone kills an animal and they film the dead animal hunt after the kill, common practice... Only last night on Alaska the last frontier, it showed a woman shoot a deer, she held the rifle offhand, in such a way that you couldn't possibly see thru the scope, add to the fact she was looking over the scope and yanked the trigger!! Then the guy that gutted the deer stuck a long butcher knife in the deers chest and sawed thur the guts and everything..He had no clue how to gut a deer, then at the beginning of the show another wife is aiming a rifle right handed and left eyed, that will really create some recoil..also none of them can shoot worth a damn.....It just gets to be ridiculas..Then we have the Browns, jeeeze! what an abortion..Seems all these folks are old hippies from the 50s that left the communes..Im sure some of them are legit and it takes only a little while to sort them out.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Ray, You are bursting my bubble! Next thing you will tell me is that every minute is not life-or-death for the Kilchers! Tom | |||
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Yet, they are scheduled to be teaching shooting ethics at the FNAWS Sheep show. Thomas Kennedy | |||
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| One of Us |
I dont see anything wrong with head shots. As long as the shooter can put the bullet where its supposed to go. Since I dont believe in shooting bears at much beyond bow and arrow range. . No reason to ruin any cuts of meat on a ruminate if a person can shoot. Thats really the whole issue . Being able to shoot well without taking much time to do it. Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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Not a fan of head shots. Last year while deer hunting with my daughter. I had to put down a doe that came by the stand as she had her lower jaw shot off. The doe was in bad shape and had part of her tongue just hanging there. It was my daughters first time seeing something like that and she was very disgusted. She wanted to stop hunting but I talked her into staying. A person can do as he/she likes but the risks are too great on a small moving target just to save a little meat. I will always go for the heart/lung shot. | |||
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| One of Us |
velocity is like a new car, always losing value. BC is like diamonds, holding value forever. | |||
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A few years ago the AK F&W protection ( our version of game wardens ) were notified that some residents were bear hunting on the beach during spring bear season and called the air taxi that had dropped them off. They were requesting more ammunition as they had been shooting at bears up on the mountain side and were almost out of ammo !!! I think the F&W troopers tuned them up on long range shooting at bears. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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And what was the exact violation I don't think there is a law limiting the range you can shoot a critter at. | |||
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I didn't say there was a violation but state regulations does say that any wounded animal does count against you bag limit. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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Personally, I think if any law was passed, it would be a shooting competency law with the rifle anyone was going to hunt with. That would weed out alot of the culls right there. Course if I had my way , no one would be allowed a bear tag unless they qualified with at least a 35 Whelan or 338 Winchester. But, that ain't gonna happen. Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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So the old guides and hunters who survived using rifles in the power relm of the 30-40 Krag & 30-06 were wrong ? And those who use them now with Nolser Partitions, Barnes TSX and Swift A-Frames are not adequately armed ? Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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Originally posted by Cold Finger Trigger Personally, I think if any law was passed, it would be a shooting competency law with the rifle anyone was going to hunt with. That would weed out alot of the culls right there. [/QUOTE]Kinda like Norway moose hunting? You have to pass a shooting course on moving moose targets at a certian distance before you are allowed to hunt. | |||
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Phil; I said if I had my way , I also said, that ain't gonna happen  Yup. Like some other countries have . I'm sure those associated with the commercial services board will have some push back. But, it would sure cut down on the wounded game. Since the guide has responsibility , as much as is doable, to insure any game shot is recovered. So perhaps they may be given a pass. But , All residents And out of state guides that come up to work guiding clients. Personally I think that if clients had to qualify, it would make the guides job alot easier by at least being able to hit a reasonable size target at a reasonable range from several different positions . Not from the bench !! Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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Or just by the reduction of clients they could be out of work. | |||
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It would be difficult, to say nothing of hypcritical, to require non-residents to use a larger caliber than those required for remote resident, natives and trappers, who seem to be getting by just fine with their 223's and 22-250's And due to a number of factors, usually rifle familiarity, I have seen more one shot kills by hunters using 30 calibers or less than by those using larger calibers. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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I'm more concerned with liscensed hunters actually being able to hit a good vital spot with what rifle/handgun/archery they will be hunting with than a caliber/cartridge restriction. Young people have to go thru hunter edjucation . With some tags , the hunters have to go thru orientation, a rifle, handgun, or archery qualification should go right along with it. It would spur people on to shoot more pre hunting season and would weed out alot of the heavy drinkers and dopers . And by shooting more with what they would qualify with liscensed hunters would be familiar with what they were shooting. Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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Personally I believe in less government regulation then more. | |||
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| One of Us |
That works so long as people act responsibly like grown ups . . . taking head shots at grizzly bear at 500+ yards is not acting responsibly like grown ups. Mike | |||
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The only Best of the West show that I've watched was a black bear hunt. They shot a bear at over 700 yards, but the bear was very small. I was amazed that aired the hunt. Go Duke!! | |||
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| One of Us |
I did not watch this show but last weekend I watched Steve's outdoors and they shot a bear on the Penisula at over 500 yards and hit him just before he reached the top of the ridge. Luckily the bear turned and ran back at them, a second shot put him down at 475 yards. What if the Bear had ran the other way over the hill? | |||
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| one of us |
There are a what of what if's in hunting I have seen a lot of game disappear in thick cover at the first shot not allowing time for a follow up. | |||
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