I never have a round in the chamber, unless I've been told to do so. Many times I've asked before we started a stalk if I should put one in the chamber. As best as I can remember, every time I've been told "not yet, I'll let you know when." That's been the case from Alaska to Africa and everywhere in between.

Must be nice to have someone around to tell you such things.

[BOLD] Death does not lurk behind every tree up here, so to be safe I carry magazine rounds 99% of the time. Only when I feel I might need that rifle to go to work quickly do I chamber.[/BOLD]

Alaska your paragraph above is what I have been saying all along. To me UN-LOADED means a empty rifle, While a rifle have the magazine full and the chamber empty IS NOT UN-LOADED, but is just a bolt work away from hot. When one moves into tight cover where there is sign of ANY dangerous animal being present it is time to chamber a round. As long as one can see any reasonable distance the chamber is empty. I fail to see how anyone can find fault with the opinion.
...…………......……......……......……...…………...…………......…….

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
Must be nice to have someone around to tell you such things.

From a guides perspective it nice to have someone around who listens to local expertise

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
Must be nice to have someone around to tell you such things.

I'd put your snark in check P Dog.

The point is not that anyone needs to be told what to do concerning a hot or cold chamber. It's more about reaching an understanding between two parties sharing close proximity to each other in potentially dangerous game animal areas regarding safety. I've hunted with guys that have very poor muzzle control that insisted on carry hot. I don't hunt with them anymore. I actually got kicked off a deer lease a few years back by a guy that was up to that point, my best friend. He was incredibly unsafe with guns and I called him on it repeatedly. He finally got tired of me chirping at him and disinvited me from the lease offer the following year. Luckily, he's not injured or killed anyone or himself yet, but I expect it's going to happen eventually.

Guides encounter all types and often don't know how a particular client's gun safety habits are until in the field. It's easier to just start off on the safe side, at least until they've had some level of assessment. And like it or not, when you hire a guide or PH, he's running the show in the field. (I'm still keeping my bolt though!)

Those of us who don't hunt in areas with big brownies often, should be willing to listen to the experts we've hired. The same way we listen to our PH's in Africa when in DG areas. The fact is that if in an area / circumstance not likely to produce a surprise encounter with a bear, there really isn't any reason to increase risk factors by having a hot chamber. It's a risk / reward scenario. No likely surprise encounter, the risk, even if minuscule, of an AD with a hot chamber is unnecessary. If in a high potential surprise encounter situation, the risk is justified. Who better to access that risk than the guys who spend a considerable time amongst those animals and in those situations?

quote:

if in an area / circumstance not likely to produce a surprise encounter with a bear, there really isn't any reason to increase risk factors by having a hot chamber. It's a risk / reward scenario. No likely surprise encounter, the risk, even if minuscule, of an AD with a hot chamber is unnecessary. If in a high potential surprise encounter situation, the risk is justified.

Well said Todd, and I think that's the same thing MAC and 98% of others are saying on this well worn topic. There is a time and place to chamber a round where the miniscule but usually unnecessary additional risk becomes worth it.

I think the OP is arguing for chambering door to door in all hunting situations, not just where bears/DG are a possibility, due to his exceptional gun handling skills. That's where we respectfully agree to disagree, and apparently no amount of argument will change anyone's mind on this topic, mine included.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
Must be nice to have someone around to tell you such things.

It really is. I've made many friends with the various outfitters & guides I've had the pleasure to hunt with.

Besides, who better to learn from than someone who does it for a living....

And finding lifelong friends is one of the major perks of guiding as well !

It always pays to keep an open mind

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
Must be nice to have someone around to tell you such things.

I usually keep an empty chamber when I'm by myself, unless I'm planning on shooting imminently , or there are animals around that might take offense. When I'm hunting with somebody else , empty chamber and I expect the same from them.

Grizz

I've hunted for four plus decades, mostly in the West (Arizona, Colorado Montana) but also hunting bears in the cedar forests of the Adirondacks. When still hunting or folloing p an animal (usually for someone else) I always have a round in the chamber unless I have to climb over deadfalls etc, then I stop, empty the chamber and make sure it's clear. Otherwise I always have an unloaded chamber. I've only been on two guided hunts (not counting where I was an assistant guide), in those cases I do whatever the guide tells me.

I can't think of a better way to add tension to a hunt than argueing with your guide, who you trusted enough to pay your hard earned money to have a successful hunt and then arguing over a chambered or unchambered round..This is where common since comes in handy...but probably a good idea to settle that before you book along with any other little imagined problems you might have...As a hunter you SHOULD know when to chamber a round and when not to an when to ask, if its confusing!!

I'm curious how you fellas feel about double rifles.

A double is either loaded with two in the chamber, safety on, or it is completely unloaded. This is the Alaskan hunting forum, so I suppose this applies mostly to African hunting, but I have read once in a great while a person taking a double to Alaska. Anyway, be it Alaska or Africa, I believe it applies to this discussion of rifle carry condition while hunting.

My observation of PHs I've hunted with in Africa, and ones I've observed on TV shows, have loaded their doubles when they got off the truck before beginning the general hunt. I am now hunting with someone who has a loaded chamber, safety on. When I hunt, I do the same, and demand to be allowed to do so. Is there a 'double standard'(pun intended) with doubles here? They do not know my gun handling safety and are right to be concerned if this is my first hunt with them. However, I do not know their handling safety either, so I can be just as concerned. I have watched PHs carry their loaded doubles with the rifle over their shoulders in the 'African carry' style, barrels pointed right at the tracker(s) in front of them. If the PH expects me to allow his chamber to be loaded, I expect the same consideration. He has his safety concerns and I have my own.

As I stated in my previous post, I am not upset if a guide/PH demands I hunt with an empty chamber. It is his right, and I respect his rules. I too have my rules and concerns when hunting dangerous game. Either we agree or we don't. No hard feelings on my part. I just book with a different company that shares my rules. Simple solution for everyone.

quote:

Originally posted by surefire7:
I'm curious how you fellas feel about double rifles.

A double is either loaded with two in the chamber, safety on, or it is completely unloaded. This is the Alaskan hunting forum, so I suppose this applies mostly to African hunting, but I have read once in a great while a person taking a double to Alaska. Anyway, be it Alaska or Africa, I believe it applies to this discussion of rifle carry condition while hunting.

My observation of PHs I've hunted with in Africa, and ones I've observed on TV shows, have loaded their doubles when they got off the truck before beginning the general hunt. I am now hunting with someone who has a loaded chamber, safety on. When I hunt, I do the same, and demand to be allowed to do so. Is there a 'double standard'(pun intended) with doubles here? They do not know my gun handling safety and are right to be concerned if this is my first hunt with them. However, I do not know their handling safety either, so I can be just as concerned. I have watched PHs carry their loaded doubles with the rifle over their shoulders in the 'African carry' style, barrels pointed right at the tracker(s) in front of them. If the PH expects me to allow his chamber to be loaded, I expect the same consideration. He has his safety concerns and I have my own.

As I stated in my previous post, I am not upset if a guide/PH demands I hunt with an empty chamber. It is his right, and I respect his rules. I too have my rules and concerns when hunting dangerous game. Either we agree or we don't. No hard feelings on my part. I just book with a different company that shares my rules. Simple solution for everyone.

I think it still just depends on the situation.

Where I moose and bear hunt there's no real good opportunity for either a self defense shooting or a snap shot on game. I generally don't and stalk from an elevated position looking down or sit and spot and call. There's usually ample opportunity to load or even reload.

a) I'd advise not bring a double on a hunt with me. A nice rifle will likely be damaged in the boat/ tent/ trail/ butchering process. My preference is a reasonable to carry and use scoped rifle.

b) if you just had to have your double or any firearm loaded while out and about and if I was concerned, I'd just have you walk in front of me. I'm not a guide, if you're that wound up about something like this you can lead the way. Here, I know what I'm doing and what works, if you insist you know better, off you go.

Sounds reasonable to me Scott.

And as I said, I respect your decision to hunt any way that makes you feel safe. It's your life after all.

And that is how I feel when hunting DG in Africa. It is my life, and I will not put it solely into the hands of someone else. If my PH can back me up and even save my life with a well placed shot if I missed mine, I am happy and grateful. But I will not abdicate my right to save my own life. And that is how I feel when someone tells me I must hunt with an empty chamber while hunting DG. But that's just me I suppose.

Perhaps hunting in Alaska is very different than Africa. I dunno. Never hunted in Alaska. So, I will bow to your experience. But I will never hunt DG with an empty chamber. I suppose in that case, I should not hunt Alaska...

quote:

Originally posted by surefire7:
Sounds reasonable to me Scott.

And as I said, I respect your decision to hunt any way that makes you feel safe. It's your life after all.

And that is how I feel when hunting DG in Africa. It is my life, and I will not put it solely into the hands of someone else. If my PH can back me up and even save my life with a well placed shot if I missed mine, I am happy and grateful. But I will not abdicate my right to save my own life. And that is how I feel when someone tells me I must hunt with an empty chamber while hunting DG. But that's just me I suppose.

Perhaps hunting in Alaska is very different than Africa. I dunno. Never hunted in Alaska. So, I will bow to your experience. But I will never hunt DG with an empty chamber. I suppose in that case, I should not hunt Alaska...

We're still making absolutes where there needn't be.

Come up and hunt Alaska, but be flexible.

Thank you for the welcome to Alaska Scott.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
Must be nice to have someone around to tell you such things.

From a guides perspective it nice to have someone around who listens to local expertise

Do the guides also tell their hunters when to wipe their butts?

Look, if the hunter is a newbie who the guide feels isn't safe, that's one thing. Then the hunter shouldn't chamber a round until the guide tells him to.

But if this a repeat client who's proven safe in the past, or a hunter who's obviously experienced, then the guide should focus on what he's been paid to do, which is to lead the hunter to the animal, not micro-manage how the hunter wants to hunt.

Again, if the hunter acts in an unsafe manner, that's different.

quote:

Originally posted by Nick Adams:

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
Must be nice to have someone around to tell you such things.

From a guides perspective it nice to have someone around who listens to local expertise

Do the guides also tell their hunters when to wipe their butts?

Look, if the hunter is a newbie who the guide feels isn't safe, that's one thing. Then the hunter shouldn't chamber a round until the guide tells him to.

But if this a repeat client who's proven safe in the past, or a hunter who's obviously experienced, then the guide should focus on what he's been paid to do, which is to lead the hunter to the animal, not micro-manage how the hunter wants to hunt.

Again, if the hunter acts in an unsafe manner, that's different.

At least here on the internet, it doesn't appear that you are able to play well with others, much less handle an Alaskan guided hunt.

That's ok really, you're a minority and you won't be missed.

Seems very self defeating to me to hire a professional that in some cases has decades of "what works here," experience and then disagree with them.

Wherever the location it seems amazing to me that someone wouldn't follow a competent guides directions. After all you did hire them for exactly that.

quote:

Originally posted by Nick Adams:

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
Must be nice to have someone around to tell you such things.

From a guides perspective it nice to have someone around who listens to local expertise

Do the guides also tell their hunters when to wipe their butts

Bathroom habits of clients are just one of the myriad things guides are forced to deal with.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:

quote:

Originally posted by Nick Adams:



Do the guides also tell their hunters when to wipe their butts

bathroom habits of clients are just one of the myriad things guides are forced to deal with.

Well put Phil!

Ive always loaded my double when out of the truck and on the track in Africa, like most..I am then damn careful where its pointed and you can use the African carry unless your a total idiot, thank about it, the muzzle is in your hand, surely you know where its pointed, you can point it to either side or your body or forward..Its a subject that's never come up with me in my many hunts to Africa....I don't take a double to shoot Brown bear, I use a bolt gun so its a no issue on this side of the pond.

If the guide asked me to unload my double, I would do that under most circumstances, no big deal to me. To start with I would know my guide before I booked with him..I imagine I could just break open my double and carry it that way, Ive done that before for several reasons..

But whatever you do, someone can summon up a perinoid circumstance wherein your a villain and unsafe to have in camp, at lest on the internet!! And with all the opinnions, Ive yet to kill any animal with an unloaded gun..

not too many asking what does guide do in off season maybe a boxboy I never see many guides out at shootin range yet its sort of assumed he is as cool as clint eastwood and could shoot a flying golfball

Actually Ive seen a few PHs in Africa, that couldn't hit the side of a barn, mostly RSA farmers as a matter of fact, the started out in PG hunting and moved into Zimbabwe, and Tanzania..I know some old timers more or less that can't shoot but are about as good a hunter as you could find anywhere...

They are just folks, some are good at their business and others are not..I figure when you sight in, checking your rifle, ask your PH to shoot. Some refuse, so................!!

I am very paranoid about gun safety. Why I like the Blaser R8 so much - I like cocker and decocker safety.

I do as I am told by my guide or ph. I pay them for some expertise (hopefully ).

I make sure I try and never sweep anyone. My ph and tracker after 10 days of hunting recently never once said they were swept.

I have been swept plenty by phs and it is not fun. I don’t like looking down a barrel of a 470 double every time the ph glasses something and the rifle changes position on the sling. I won’t hunt with anyone who Africa carry over the shoulder.

Most African ph admit they consider unsafe gun handling by some clients a far bigger risk than any dangerous game in Africa.

Mike

Well you answered your own question, you wont hunt with a PH that uses the African carry, that's quite a limiting challenge as 99.9 % use the African carry and use the barrels for bracing their binocs..It's nothing I have ever worried about..but in your case the answer is a given, work that out with your PH, prior to booking, its your hunt and your decision, end of story.

quote:

Originally posted by anukpuk:
not too many asking what does guide do in off season maybe a boxboy I never see many guides out at shootin range yet its sort of assumed he is as cool as clint eastwood and could shoot a flying golfball

Absolutely nails it right there.

Running around with a cute little 'Guide' patch on your hat means zilch in terms of safe gun-handling skills or marksmanship. Especially the assistant guides ... as seen here:

http://forums.accuratereloadin...7621043/m/6881095152

quote:

Between 2009 and 2014, avid hunter and Toutle native Jeffrey Cooper made several visits to northern British Columbia through Wistaria Guiding, an unincorporated hunting business specializing in guided hunting trips for moose, bears, mountain goats, wolf, upland birds and fish.

But when a grizzly bear, which Cooper shot and wounded the night before, came charging out of the brush the morning of May 26, 2014, Cooper and two guides reacted instantly and fired, dropping the bear. Cooper, standing in front of one of the guides, was inadvertently struck and killed, according to Canadian court documents.

Let's see ... Real skittish ass't guides. No muzzle discipline, finger inside the trigger guard. Yeppers, best to stand behind those dudes.

And some guides here are worried about whether the hunter has a round chambered? Ah huh ...

In fact the skill of the average hunter coming up to Alaska to hunt caribou, moose, or bear probably dwarfs most guides in both areas.

quote:

If your gonna be dumb, you gotta be tuff.

A self-motivational theme following an all-night binge, I take it?

'If you can't do something smart, do something right.'

Ya hear that one a lot from the Oklahoma moron contingent.

quote:

Originally posted by A.J. Hydell:

In fact the skill of the average hunter coming up to Alaska to hunt caribou, moose, or bear probably dwarfs most guides in both areas.

Come on up and hunt Moose or Caribou all by yourself. Bear (Brown or Grizz) you can't without at least a dwarf guide.


Tough luck!!

Cheers
Jim

[QUOTE]Originally posted by A.J. Hydell

Running around with a cute little 'Guide' patch on your hat means zilch in terms of safe gun-handling skills or marksmanship. Especially the assistant guides


And some guides here are worried about whether the hunter has a round chambered? Ah huh ...

In fact the skill of the average hunter coming up to Alaska to hunt caribou, moose, or bear probably dwarfs most guides in both areas.

quote:
Originally posted by dpcd:
After I finished watching Life Below Zero, I watched the series, NORSEMEN; on Netflix. It's only 3 seasons and I didn't like the way it ended, but you will see.
I highly recommend it.
Totally historic and accurate depiction of the way the Vikings livcd.
Totally, just like Life Below Zero in Alaska. Without politics.


'Life Below Zero' was great show! That Glenn Villenevue is a real bear & moose killer.

Better still are the episodes of 'Buying Alaska.' ... Real Alaskans 'seeking to get a small stake of the Alaskan experience.'

rotflmo Gotta love that hook line!

Last show I saw (a re-run) featured a pretty black-haired gal who turned out to be the former Miss Alaska and her husband. He's in the Mil service and stationed up there.

Still, the best series was always 'The Last Alaskans.' Bob Harte (R.I.P.) really made that series shine.

Unlike some of the bush-people wannabes living in Wasilla. Roll Eyes

All The Best ...



Great bits of wisdom from a Texan who admits getting his expertise on Alaska from reality TV shows

quote:

Originally posted by A.J. Hydell:

quote:

Originally posted by anukpuk:
not too many asking what does guide do in off season maybe a boxboy I never see many guides out at shootin range yet its sort of assumed he is as cool as clint eastwood and could shoot a flying golfball

Absolutely nails it right there.

Running around with a cute little 'Guide' patch on your hat means zilch in terms of safe gun-handling skills or marksmanship. Especially the assistant guides ... as seen here:

http://forums.accuratereloadin...7621043/m/6881095152

quote:

Between 2009 and 2014, avid hunter and Toutle native Jeffrey Cooper made several visits to northern British Columbia through Wistaria Guiding, an unincorporated hunting business specializing in guided hunting trips for moose, bears, mountain goats, wolf, upland birds and fish.

But when a grizzly bear, which Cooper shot and wounded the night before, came charging out of the brush the morning of May 26, 2014, Cooper and two guides reacted instantly and fired, dropping the bear. Cooper, standing in front of one of the guides, was inadvertently struck and killed, according to Canadian court documents.

Let's see ... Real skittish ass't guides. No muzzle discipline, finger inside the trigger guard. Yeppers, best to stand behind those dudes.

And some guides here are worried about whether the hunter has a round chambered? Ah huh ...

In fact the skill of the average hunter coming up to Alaska to hunt caribou, moose, or bear probably dwarfs most guides in both areas.

quote:

If your gonna be dumb, you gotta be tuff.

A self-motivational theme following an all-night binge, I take it?

'If you can't do something smart, do something right.'

Ya hear that one a lot from the Oklahoma moron contingent.

I have had guides that were carpenters, commercial fishermen, taxidermists, worked at a fishery, and who knows what else. They all knew more about the game I was hunting than me.

As for gun safety, I have no complaints about any guide I have ever used.

The worst guide I ever had was a plumber with no knowledge of the local area who was dropped off at our Williams, AZ hotel to "guide" a friend and me on a elk hunt booked through Blair.

But other than that single experience I have had the pleasure of hunting with, and learning from a lot of exceptional guides all around the globe. And unless the situation at the time dictated it, chambers were always empty.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
The worst guide I ever had was a plumber with no knowledge of the local area who was dropped off at our Williams, AZ hotel to "guide" a friend and me on a elk hunt booked through Blair.

But other than that single experience I have had the pleasure of hunting with, and learning from a lot of exceptional guides all around the globe. And unless the situation at the time dictated it, chambers were always empty.

I was speaking of Alaska; I did hire a guide for a mule deer hunt in AZ that thought riding forest service roads on ATVs was the ticket to a monster. One of the few hunts I decided I would better off by myself...

But my last AZ guide was great: Shane Koury; he called in 6 bys every morning and evening. Shane is a realtor when not hunting.

I’ve yet to have a guide with less local knowledge than myself.

I’ve had a few who weren’t that great of hunters, but we got along and I had fun.

If you have to obsess on the guide’s behaviors and mannerisms, you would probably be better off sticking to golf... without a caddy.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by A.J. Hydell:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by anukpuk:
not too many asking what does guide do in off season maybe a boxboy I never see many guides out at shootin range yet its sort of assumed he is as cool as clint eastwood and could shoot a flying golfball

* * *

quote:

I have had guides that were carpenters, commercial fishermen, taxidermists, worked at a fishery, and who knows what else. They all knew more about the game I was hunting than me.

Knowledge of game, or their whereabouts, isn't the issue. It's primarily safe gun-handling, and secondarily, competent marksmanship if the guide is backing you up on a DG hunt.

quote:

As for gun safety, I have no complaints about any guide I have ever used.

Good for you.

Did you by chance check into their certification paperwork?

That now dead veteran hunter in the Canuk case, who was also a repeat hunter with that particular guiding outfit, assumed he wouldn't be 'back-shot' by an ass't guide who was probably somebody's nephew working a seasonal job.

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbite
* * *
Come on up and hunt Moose or Caribou all by yourself. Bear (Brown or Grizz) you can't without at least a dwarf guide.

Huh?

Dude, seriously?

The issue isn't about 'guide v. no guide,' but about not getting back-shot by a nervous-ninny of an ass't guide who lacks the experience or credentials to safely guide and back-up a client during the hunt - whether for bear, moose, or other critter.

You don't have to be Sherlock Holmes to get this. Larry Holmes gets this.

quote:

Great bits of wisdom from a Texan who admits getting his expertise on Alaska from reality TV shows.

Phil, you do know that Sue Aikens recommends not trying to shoot a Grizz in the ass with multiple doses of 9mm hardcast rounds?

Neither do I !! What is your point ? She actually told you that? Or said it on a reality TV show?
And Sue does not live in Brown bear country but I am sure if any bear was threatening her or her friends she might rethink that.

Awesome thread thanks guys I needed some entertainment

Happy New Year!

Other than the few trolls it has been interesting listening to the reasoning for and against carrying hot while hunting.
A good percentage of African PH's , who do most of their daily traveling in cruisers with unloaded rifles, prefer their rifles be carried with a round in the chamber once you dismount.
While most Alaskan guides, who do all traveling on foot, want their clients to carry rounds in the magazine but not in the chamber until close to the quarry.

Both have their reasoning due to the differences in terrain, game densities and animal behavior.

First, I’ve never hunted in Africa (yet) and I’ve never hunted in Alaska with a guide. I’ve hunted in Alaska since 2016 and lived here since 2016. I mostly hunt alone or with my wife. Most of my hunting has been at lower elevations in South-Central Alaska (moose and bear country). When hunting big game with a rifle, I almost always hunt with a loaded chamber. Up here I exclusively use rifle that have safeties that lock the bolt (Win 70 or Ruger 77) but I’m very careful when transiting with vehicle, vessels, and planes to have an unloaded chamber. I also hunt with loaded chambers when hunting upland game (moving) and waterfowl (usually not moving) and shotguns are far more likely to discharge when falling than a rifle (most people don’t see a problem with that). Further, I don’t consider myself paranoid, but I often travel around the countryside with a sidearm and/or bear spray even though I know I’m more likely to be injured by a moose than bear. I also know that only 1:100 bear encounters end with an injury or death but we did have a spat of mailings and killings a couple years ago. I guess I just feel more comfortable with a fully loaded firearm than not. However, if I was hunting with a guide, I’d probably follow his direction or I’d need a guide with who felt more comfortable.