For multi-species hunts in Alaska (not including brown bears), would a Browning BAR Safari rifle in .338 mag be okay or is the semiauto action too finicky for this type of environment?

I would not recommend a BAR in this harsh, wet & cold-frozen environment. I have seen other hunters experience action malfunctions in the past. Use a quality bolt action is my advice!
Good Hunting!

mz, do not count on it being fully reliable in all conditions. Too many variables in hunting conditions and surely you would like to make it home in one peice. Buy a bolt or a levergun.

Thanks for the advice guys.

Would the same advice apply if I was talking about a sporterized Garand in .338 mag? I am under the impression that this is an extremely reliable semi auto action.

It will do, the Browning BAR is one of the most reliable semi autos you can buy. But all rifles need care in the field. Keep it clean, I an old friend of my Uncles hunted with nothing but and I don't recall hearing that he ever had a problem. While I would not hunt with one, that dose not mean it would not work well for you.

I shoot a BAR due to no longer having the full compliment of fingers on the trigger hand. One third of an index finger makes shooting a bolt action a painful experience, read recoil transfer from bolt to stub equals bloody stub...

My BAR is very reliable when it is clean and shooting QUALITY factory ammunition. It doesn't have consistent appetite for reloaded ammunition. I would not hesitate to use a BAR if there were no other viable alternatives available.

My buddies dad uses nothing other than a bar in 7mm mag for 90% of his alaskan big game hunting, sheep, goats, moose and carabou have all fallen to his 7mm bar. THe trick is to keep it fairly clean and a minimum of lubrication in cold weather.

A BAR 338 is the rifle that I carry almost all of the time. Given only one choice, that would be it and I have used Ruger, Browning A-bolt, and winchester model 70, all in 338. Couldn't imagine having an autoloader until I met 3 brown bears at very close range and my conversion occurred rapidly. My ss bolt mod 70 felt slightly more useful than a baseball bat at that point. I worry less about malfunction of the autoloader than malfunction of the operator in working a bolt very quickly under stress. I haven't thrown the mod 70 away though since it is easy to keep working when the temp is extremely cold. I do keep the BAR reasonably clean. It is accurate and has been completely reliable. Also, I like the balance. (It has a factory 20" barrel).

That is a really unusual position to take from one experience. I wonder why all the big bear guides in Alaska or the PH's in Africa that do dangerous game are not all clammering for semi-autos?

Interesting.....but I do not buy it.

I think the Bar will work fine as long as the owner takes painful care with cleaning and the type of lubrication, loads, etc. But given the nature of the hunting in the west coast brown bear areas and inclement environment, a semi-auto would not be my first choice.

No sensible guide will let you carry a rifle with a round in the chamber. Dropping the bolt on a BAR hard enough to seat the cartridge will scare every bear within a quarter mile.

Yep.....there are two sides to this of course and it always reflects on peoples personal experience, or sadly in a lot of cases no experience, but opinion.

I have personally guided hunters that have had their semi-autos jamb on 3 occasions and have seen them frozen twice and a lever-gun frozen as well.

With the bolt-actions, one failed to work due to a frozen firing pin (more correctly it was slowed by thick forzen oil). A couple of times guys have short stroked them on a follow-up shot but they had already put one in the animal.

quote:

Interesting.....but I do not buy it.

I would not buy it either. If this is a recommedation for the purchase of hunting a tenacious animal I would not recommend it at all nor would I ever offer it to either of my sons as a gift. wish you well.

I am looking at this rifle for everything BUT brown bears. The only reason I am considering something like a semiauto .338 mag is if by chance I happen upon a brown bear intent on making me it's dinner. If it there was no chance of confronting one of these monsters, I would look at a bolt action .300 mag. Considering what the M1 Garand must have went through during WWII and Korea.....surely it is a reliable action in nearly all weather conditions (though I wasn't there, so I have no idea). If I had to have a semiauto, is a sporterized Garand in .338 mag a better option than the BAR?

Why don't you just buy a good bolt-action in .338 and quit worrying about the bears.

Starting with a bolt action 338 is exactly what I did. But experiences accumulate and preferences change. For me it has meant over 25 years using 3 bolt action 338's (Ruger, Browning, Winchester) and a BAR 338. Still have the Ruger and mod 70 but the BAR is the one that I prefer. Ironically, the only one that failed for me was the Browning A bolt "Alaskan". Had the first SS 338 that showed up in my area. Nice balance,very accurate and I used it for several years until the safety locked up completely on a couple of occasions. Once was enough!

Have fun with whatever one(s) you get.

Nobody likes the idea of a sporterized Garand in .338 mag?

quote:

Originally posted by Mikelravy:
No sensible guide will let you carry a rifle with a round in the chamber. Dropping the bolt on a BAR hard enough to seat the cartridge will scare every bear within a quarter mile.

+1, spot on.

combat is not hunting. in a combat zone there is always a round in the chamber. while hunting there should only be a round in the chamber, when i target is presented.

The only reason some people consider auto loaders, or large capacity magazines for use on bears is that they are afraid that they will be unable to accurately place their first shots, and hence need lots of quick backup shots.

From what I've seen of police shootouts (the largest body of data relevant to how people shoot in stressful situations), and some studying of shots at dangerous game, I'd have to say in the majority of situations:

If you can't accurately place your first shot or two, your accuracy won't get any better no matter how many followup shots you have!

This is a very simple yet important fact to grasp. Also, you can only expect to get off one or at most two shots at a charging animal. It is very unusual to have the time to get off many shots.

As to bolt actions not being abled to be fired rapidly, all that is required is practice.

paul;

a lot of truth there....

One of the reasons bolt actions are the standard for hunting dangerous game is that doing so is really not that dangerous. Statistically, the dangerous game "loses" in 99.9 % or higher of encounters and the hunter and guide(s) are tired but unscathed. This is not intended to diminish the skill and effort required by hunters of dangerous game. (although the scariest hunting that I can imagine is for goats.)

For a surprise encounter, it is a very different circumstance and that is my main concern. People do get mauled and sometimes chomped pretty good. I am not hunting brown bears, I just happen to be where they are when I am hiking, hunting, or just wandering thru the woods. Overwhelmingly, we each stay out of each other's way and they seem pretty willing to do that. With a surprise encounter, the idea that one good shot will work and that with practice a bolt action is as fast as fast as an autoloader are not comforting when there is one person and more than one bear. Few brown bear hunters seem to claim one shot kills.

Finally,when I am alone, I usually do have one in the chamber. Otherwise, in a surprise encounter, I am once again holding a very nice steel and wooden baseball bat.

For those who have complete confidence in their bolt action with an empty chamber, I envy you. I once felt that way too and would much prefer to return that state of mind.

One of the reasons that I am considering an auto in.338 mag is because I do not want to hunt deer and caribou with a .375 or larger size rifle.....and I am concerned that it may take several quick shots from a .338 to stop a brown bear, as opposed to one shot from something like a .416 rigby bolt action.

I THINK it is safe to say that one of the REAL heavy reasons for guides wanting empty guns behind them is because there are soooo many moneyed idiots out there today who feel the urge to become manly men by slaying the great beasts, even though they have problems finding their way out of their home walk-in closets. I wouldn't want those guys walking down a paved street behind me with their loaded 900magnum dinostomper either.

Skill at arms allows for different rules than those who are the unskilled. I say that from having been a ghetto cop for over 20 years and being first through the door on more hard raids than I would ever care to remember. There were some people I worked with at street level I wouldn't want behind me armed with a rubber band gun, yet I had no problem with guys behind me armed with toys ready to rock and roll.

I watched my dad carry a BAR in 30-06 though LOTS of Michigan hunting seasons and he was a minimalist care type of person. It seemed to work well in everything including one Thanksgiving hunt where it dropped to -20F.

A LOT of what we do in the dark and deep is also based on our psychological way of dealing with whatever demons we feel we may have to confront.
I know lots of folks who swear by the BAR in .338 and wouldn't think of hunting anywhere without it. Equipment is only as reliable as the owner. you already stated you aren't looking to poke the bear with the stick, you just don't want to feel disadvantaged if taken by surprise. In that case you will still only probably have just one chance, one shot, to "do it right." So, go with what makes you comfortable and shoot well. Confidence is a great equalizer in those surprise situations.

It seemed to work for Bell who shot elephants with calibers we would hesitate to use on an enraged pitbull.

lawcop;

no doubt what you are saying is sadly true.

however, guide muzzle discipline and weapon handling is lacking as well. i am sure you read about the recent tradegy about the guide who while trying to dispatch an escaping bear shot his hunter in the head. whatever happened to watch your muzzle at all times, know your target and what lies beyond, never point your muzzle at anything that you are not willing to destroy, well you get the idea. safety is not what it used to be....

I don't know about WW11 or Korea, but in Viet Nam rifle malfunctions in the early years were all too common.

I know this is the Alaska forum but have you ever seen the way a lot of African PHs carry their rifles. And don't ever walk in front of a government game scout if you can help it. Enough to give me the willys.

Talk about a timely Topic...

I've recently had open heart surgery and am currently taking Coumadin ( again; for a while... ).
I may never get to shoot my Remington 700 / .375 ULTRA more than a few times, if ever.
Hence, I started thinking of replacing it with a Browning BAR / .338 Win.Mag.
This would give me the opportunity to have a softer shooting 'mid-bore' that wouldn't bruise me ( see 'Coumadin' ) and keep me in the game for 'elk/moose/bear' guns.

I've read the thread and there are some compelling arguments for both sides of the story.
Still, the BAR/.338 seems to be a very good choice for hunting where bears might be, even if they aren't the game you're after.

LAWCOP's answer was very good.
I agree that safety is paramount, and exercise that at all times.
The fact that the BAR worked so well for his Dad, especially in sub-zero temperatures, is good to know.
Also, knowing that the bolt CAN be closed quietly is reassuring. ( I've done the same on my BAR MkII Safari/BOSS in 7mm Rem.Mag. and it works ).

In the spirit of keeping things civil... ...
What would be a good way to lube the BAR for cold weather operation?

BASICALLY it was well cleaned just before season, then very very lightly oiled with a teflon lube then he wouldn't touch it again no matter how wet or cold or nasty it got until the season was over with. I have seen the gun come in from a hunt just soaked. He would wipe off the outside and set it in the corner until the next day. in 17 years it never malfunctioned. It is an original Belgian Grade IV that looks like it was dragged behind a truck. He didn't think anything of using it to hold down a barbwire fence or ... never mind the thoughts are too horrible to recall.

When I was in the Army they had a special oil for cold weather.They use it in Alaska even now,i.e the Alaska Gaurd.The Army only uses automatic weapons unless your a sniper.They have no problem with their weapons.Nor did I on TDY to Germany also it gets cold as a well diggers butt in Idaho on the DMZ.
Fact of life with a auto,clean your piece.
To the gentleman with the heart conditon,get you a bar with a Boss system on it,it Will take away alot of recoil,course it's LOUD as hell when it goes bang.An you'll heard a buzzing sound in your ears for acoulpa hours.
I guess I couldn't ever go on a guided hunt in Alaksa,sorry I haven't ever not had a round in the chamber of any weapon I was using while I was hunting in my entire life.Course I'm not a trophy hunter either,what I shot I eat,except for coyotes.

I would prefer a Mauser-style bolt action, but I would use a garand in Alaska. However, as the prior owner of 2 BARs, I would not take them into any harsh conditions as they are not even completely reliable at the shooting range.

what about the blaser 93

I have never shot anything bigger than deer and hogs. I know what a .300 win mags does to these guys even with less than perfect shot placement. My concern is that a less than perfect shot from a .338 mag won't stop an angry brown bear....but my thinking is that two quick shots might make him change course or at least give me a chance for a third. If it weren't for the threat of brown bears I wouldn't even be considering something as large as a .338 mag, or a semiauto for that matter. I am now steering more towards a sporterized Garand in .338 mag.

msr3yt ----- Two quick shots are better than one, IF YOU HAVE THEM. Only one shot and you could be in trouble if that first one is not a killing shot on the Bear. --- I hunted for several years with two BAR's in .300 win mag. This was normaly Elk hunting in the thick black timber. The first time I used the BAR I was high on the mountain above timber and jumped two Bulls at 80 yards and was able to put three quick shots in the killing zone of one of the Bulls so quick it made my head swim. I shot the first shot at what I thought was the correct behind the shoulder spot, he kept running, I shot again, the same thing happened again. After the third shot the Bull started turning backward flips back down the mountain. All three shots could be covered by my two hands, finally when the Bull ran out of blood he was done for. I was quite impressed with the BAR, especially with the fact that the kick of the .300 win didn't knock my shooting eye off the target and crosshair. The next year was very cold and snowy and when I got my shot the BAR did not cycle and I had to pull the case out by hand. My first shot was good, so it did not matter, but awakened me as too what could happen. More experience in the field revealed that with many days of hunting and heavy trash or ice could make the auto cycle less than 100 percent. IF YOU ARE FACING A BEAR this would not be good. I took a 91/2 ft. Brown Bear near Cold Bay Alaska and after the shot faced three more big Bears at less than 50 yards, that encounter turned out OK, but you can see what could happen. As for me, you will not see me Bear hunting with a BAR. Take that for what it is worth from someone who has been there and experienced the BAR and the BEAR. Good shooting.

Issues with the BAR in poor conditions are what is steering me more towards the Garand. Does anyone know anything about Garand reliability and durability in poor (i.e. cold, wet, dirty, etc) conditions? I have no problem cleaning my rifle each night, but I don't want to have to field strip the rifle out in the middle of the timber.

JUST OUT of curiosity, have you ever seen anyone offer a Garand in .338? I ask because I an somewhat familiar with the system and I believe you would have to do some SERIOUS plumbing to make it feasible AND SAFE.

If someone tells you all you have to do is throw a new bbl on it, I would ask for LOTS of verifiable references on the previous conversions and see if any of those folks are still alive.

The bolt rollers and locks and gas system just aren't designed for the kind of pressure you will generate in the .338

really curious who is willing to do the conversion.

as for the system itself, an awful lotta GIs dragged that puppy through African dessert, in Europe over the mountains in the cold.
Through the pacific
Up and down the hills of Korea in tougher conditions tha you would hunt in and they seemed to think it worked OK.

A company called McCann Industries does the conversion. They also do a .458 win mag. Do a search under .338 garand.

Went to the site. interesting.
LIKE I said, it requires SERIOUS replumbing of the gun to do something it was never designed to do.

If that concerned with quick 2nd and 3rd shots close up have you considered the BLR in the WSMs they are offering? Not as fast as an auto but much faster than a bolt and BLRs are very accurate for lever guns.

i have never heard of a garand in any caliber other than .308 or .30-06.

if guys are so concerned about a fast second shot, then they should consider using a double rifle, which would be completely reliable. i do not feel that the b.a.r. would be.

the main thing is the place the first shot where it needs to be with a large enough cailber to do the job with authority using heavy for caliber premium ammo. then the rest is academic.

http://www.gokart.net/shop-utopia/mccann/rifles/rifles.html

here is the company website.
like I said I would like LOTS of references on this one.

For assured reliability, just use a military Garand in 30-06 or a Sprinfgield M1A in .308.

500grains
How hard would it be to rebarrel a Grand to 9.3X62? I don't think any mods other than a new barrel would be needed.

Dr B