The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting Alaska Hunting Forum Nice job Phil ShoemakerGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Can't speak for anyone other than myself, but in the past I've recommended spray over firearms for people like yourself because I don't think you've got what it takes to dlp a bear. As I've mentioned several times before and Shoemaker mentioned above, there is paperwork involved after the fact as well as the task of skinning and be heading the bear you killed and delivering it to adf&g. You don't get to wait til your vacation is over, you don't look for that convenient time and location, you stop your vacation/ trip, pull out your Leatherman, skin and decapitate, and deliver to the nearest adf&g office. Not agent, not field camp, po box or last known sighting, their office. Killing a bear you didn't need to and completely screwing up a much anticipated Alaskan vacation is phenomenally stupid. | |||
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I don't hang with people that would risk my life or my family's life over paperwork or a vacation. Bear coming at me, I better see brass catching sunlight....I'll help with the paperwork. | |||
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Now, now, Jake, you're taking on P-Dog, the self-acknowledged bear defense expert here on AccurateReloading.  Dave | |||
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As apparently you're a big game guide like Shoemaker, I'd think you'd have enough sense and the capacity to properly assess and execute a scenario where deadly force is required. On the other hand, many and possibly most tourists do not have that ability I assume you do and further, do not have the wherewithal to properly and legally meet dlp requirements. The lack of skinning knives, pack frames and saws to decapitate being easy examples. Maybe you've noticed some of your tourist clients aren't used to or prepared to roll around an Alaska sized bear? Sort of one of the reasons they pay you maybe? As to "hanging with", .......well I'm sure we all have plenty of things to occupy our time individually or in other company. | |||
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Scott I see what your getting at. | |||
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I absolutely mean no disrespect to Shoemaker nor do I in anyway intend to intentionally or unintentionally insinuate any thoughts or advise he might offer, but I think now, after this 9mm dlp he was a part of there will likely be some that will loudly tout the 9mm being a "Use Enough Gun!" for Alaskan bear, based on his incident. Recently, right here on AR we had one fellow tell us about never removing his .44 from his body while here in our country and even going so far as to sleep with the revolver strapped to his person. To me, unsettling to say the least. Jake, I believe it is in all Alaskans best interest, especially outdoor enthusiasts like ourselves, and even more so those involved in the outdoors professionally to advise common sense and moderation on these topics and travels. Gun toting, bullet slinging hysterics do us no favors and in fact commonly lead to bad press and unhelpful legislation. Cecil the lion generated much bad press for the African safari, that wolf pack up in McKinley Park has generated bad press for hunting and hunters there. I think it better for us all to pursue and advise tactics while in the outdoors that do not require state trooper intervention and possible further recriminations. Another way to think of it may be to note that Shoemaker or other certainly will not be making $15-$25k off that bear he just 9mm'ed. | |||
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On the other hand I will not be spending 10 to 100X that amount on lawyer and court fees for clients maimed or killed by "that bear" I'd call that a good deal. Plus they were friends ! Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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http://forums.accuratereloadin...321097271#3321097271 http://forums.accuratereloadin...821009571#9821009571 I well say it again good shooting Phil. I glad you defended your clients successfully. Seems kind of ironic that some one who has pushed spray so hard used a handgun to defend his clients One can read Phil's comments on spray in these two links a quick search revealed them. For those who keep saying that I don't have what it takes to kill a pissed off bear. I have killed several wounded pissed off bears at muzzle touching distances with hand guns. How many of you have done that? I would love to read your stories. One was a 500 pound plus bear that was mauling a hound my 41 mag left powder burns on its head. Personally I found going into the thick stuff after wounded bears to be a little less dangerous then searching buildings and woods for armed felons and murder suspects. | |||
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So many Monday morning quarterbacks ... You know when I was a kid in NYC two uniformed cops armed with 38 Special revolvers would take on almost anything short of a riot. Now, at least in Colorado Springs, they are ready to call in the SWAT team if someone is pulled over for a traffic stop. I'm voting the wounded grizzly bear in the thick stuff as more dangerous Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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Its certainly not for me to say you should have done anything different. | |||
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Chuck have you done either one. Having had it having taken on armed felons and won, having taken on wounded bears in brush so thick they had to be shot at inches and feet not yards. I'll take the bear any time. Bears have to touch you to do harm. A firearm armed human can inflect damage from a long ways. Humans are far more dangerous then any bear. | |||
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Glad you posted those links p dog! Phil recommended bear spray to folks visiting Alaska and to individuals also said he'll still always carry a gun. I would imagine as someone that is responsible for others, bear spray isn't what Phil would count on. When you build a soapbox to make accusations off of make sure it's got a better foundation than those two threads.... | |||
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And what accusations am I making I am just stating the facts and asked a simple question. Phil thoughts on spray is stated in both of those threads many times. The truth is he didn't use spray when the time came to defend the lives of his clients. | |||
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Different situations call for different solutions. Is that so difficult to understand? For someone who has never been in the situation of trying to stop a determined charge to criticize is extremely hypocritical. velocity is like a new car, always losing value. BC is like diamonds, holding value forever. | |||
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I just don't understand why it even matters p dog?! So he recommends bear spray, he also recommends guns. I just don't see why this is such a hang up.... | |||
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I recommend bear spray as a first line of defense for the same reason that cops carry pepper spray. You don't always have to kill things. One would think any real cop would understand that. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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I would also add, I've had charges from Browns come down to three or four yards but shooting wasn't needed. Bear coming in high, ears up making a scene, I was loaded and ready but not gonna drop the hammer till I felt in danger, then again I've dropped bears 30' out on full charges, low fast, ears down hackles up. Pissed off bears are different that bully bears. They don't all need to be shot. Sounds like the one Phil was dealing with wouldnt let it go and pressed it to almost making contact. I think the gun was a better choice than spraying his friends and the bear with pepper spray. Only shot one aggressive black bear. He was a foot off the muzzle of my 416 when I let it go. Didn't want to shoot it but at that range There's to many unknowns about his intentions, he was almost 8' on the northern end of the ak peninsula. No regrets. I would have tried spray if I had it in my hands. But I didn't. | |||
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In the book "Grizzlies don't come easy", Stan parkenson or something, he says that the more he guided and hunted black bears the less he respected them and the more he guided and hunted grizzly/Browns the more he respected them. To the point he recalls a large black bear that took his mt goat he shot, so he walked up and beat it with a stick until it crawled off his goat!! Given that I deal with both kinds of bears I would in no way consider them similar as threats. I don't even load my backup gun when a client shoots a black bear. That being said I would rather neither of them chew on me. But I would be more apt to trust pepper spray on a black bear and bullets on a brown bear. | |||
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Phil, at least it wasn't Tia this time. Just got back from Kentucky and had a chance to visit with Cousin Dan. His bear sure looks good in his house. Say hi to the family for me. Jim fur, feathers, & meat in the freezer  "Pass it on to your kids" | |||
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I have taught use of force for over 40 years LEOs do not carry spray to use in deadly force situations. Spray for a LEO is an intermediate use weapon falling some where in between no force and deadly force. No use of force instructor would recommend use of an intermediate weapon in a deadly force situation unless back up by lethal means. Then only against non stand off weapons. Defense against people has a very different distinction then the defense and use of force against animals. Why do you think that an animal armed with edge or impact weapons needs to be treated differently then a person threating you with edge or impact weapons. Would you really want to relied on spray against a human threating you with a weapon. LEO's don't and don't recommend it. With a bear you have some thing armed with edged and impact weapons that is very strong and very fast. I don't think spray is the proper response when being attack by a bear. Phil can say he does but when it came down to it he responded properly with deadly force to stop the threat. Phil why didn't you spray the bear first you know it just might have worked and saved the bear./S/ | |||
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Those that have been in truly life threatening situations usually keep it quiet and are modest when talking about it. Some are much more boisterous seeking glory....I respect the quiet ones much more.
Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum | |||
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I do too ... Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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https://www.americanhunter.org...zly-with-9mm-pistol/ | |||
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The same with bears. _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Not for some people. Bears seem to hold special stasis when it comes to using force. They hold them up on a pedestal. | |||
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I respect Phil, because he talks with knowledge, class and humility.
Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum | |||
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pdog, you are right that people treat bears differently but unfortunately most have little or no understanding of them. After hunting and guiding for them for nearly as long as you say you have taught police I can assure you that most bears, like most humans, are not a threat. I deal with them on a daily basis all summer and fall and in the wild have been within 20 feet of hundreds of them, many less than 5 feet, and seldom felt in danger. So choosing lethal force as the first line of defense seems like a pretty narrow minded opinion. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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Your lifetime of experience would no doubt make you feel that comfortable and confident. Others will less experience would probably hammer a lot more bears, perhaps needlessly. Fantastic job. | |||
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I 100 percent agree it is the 1 out of the many you have to deal with that is a problem as you found out. But to blindly recommend spray as the end all is wrong also as some have done. | |||
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Guys, Regardless of anyone's previous experience or lack of with brown bears I think any criticism of Phil's action in this situation is uncalled for as none of us were there. Anything we might think we'd do differently is only speculation, nothing but speculation and of little value. I personally would be very comfortable in the bush with Phil knowing he has such a cool head under fire. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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That is pretty interesting, Mr. Shoemaker can you recall how many unwounded bears have acted aggressively or charged in your time on the field? | |||
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Thank you.... So true.
Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum | |||
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Good grief!  Brett DRSS Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member WSF Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick. And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too. May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep. May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip. -Seth Peterson | |||
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Not every action in life is a political statement. Use of bear spray or recommending bear spray is not a denial of the appropriate use of a gun. P-dog, the more you bluster, the less credence I put in your stated life experience. Most LEOs, SpecOps, SEALs, and military operators I know are a lot more respectful of other's experience and opinion (and personally humble about their accomplishments). I would suggest that if you think non-lethal force has no place in the wild or in police-civilian encounters, that is a problem. While some people and animals "just done need killin'", too many assholes spaz at the sight of a bear and hose off shots for no good reason other than that they panicked. If you're going to trust anyone's opinion on "use of force" against a bear, I'd put my money with Messrs Phil and Jake. Everyone has an opinion, but some are worth more than others. Dave | |||
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+1 Amen. velocity is like a new car, always losing value. BC is like diamonds, holding value forever. | |||
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This is one of the very best posts I have ever seen on AR!!!!!!! The few members on here that know me , it doesn't bother me when they give me crap. It's the ones that have never met me and call me a liar that raise my bp . I'm very glad Phil had his gun and shot it well and the bear died without any people blood bring spilt. Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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Also, I very much appreciate the time Phil and his daughter took to document the performance of the BB bullets. My wife packs a 9 as her everyday carry gun . I'll find some of this ammo for her. Tho she is more likely to have a cow moose problem than a bear problem where we now live. , The same penetration issues are present. Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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As I stated, over the past three decades I have had hundreds of close encounters with bears, both wounded and unwounded ones but, although I have faced quite a few agressive bears at very close range, I was always been able to "grin them down" as Davy Crocket is credited with saying. This last one was the only time in 33 years that I felt the need to kill an unwounded bear. If it hadn't been standing between me and two clients, and basically on their feet I would have waited even longer before killing it. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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Cool story and great outcome. And that was some fine shooting! Hunting: Exercising dominion over creation at 2800 fps. | |||
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I'm glad everyone is OK. I always pack a Glock 27 in 40sw while hunting. There are not very many grissly where I live. I am looking at purchasing a Glock 20 in 10mm for my next Montana hunt. Hopefully it will be enough. I refuse to use Bear Spray to protect myself and loved ones. | |||
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