Well done Mr Shoemaker, aka 458Win. Not an easy feat, and glad you had your wits about you.

If this has already been posted I did not see it.

http://www.wideopenspaces.com/...r-with-a-9mm-pistol/

Phil Shoemaker, an experienced Alaskan hunting and fishing guide, was guiding a couple of clients on a salmon fishing trip in the Becharof National Wildlife Refuge in southwestern Alaska when they had a close range encounter with an angry bear. Fortunately for everyone involved, Phil stopped the raging brown bear with a 9mm pistol at close range. Phil and his two clients walked away from the incident without a scratch.

Gun enthusiasts will likely debate the merits of his decision to carry a S&W 3954 handgun in 9mm for defense for years to come, especially considering the fact that he also owned a S&W 629 chambered in .44 Magnum but chose not to carry it. Regardless of what you think of his decision, this episode shows that with good ammunition, good shot placement, and a little luck, it is possible to stop a bear with a 9mm pistol, even though it is not known as a great cartridge for a bear defense gun.

One of the major limitations of using a cartridge like the 9mm Luger for bear defense is the lack of penetration of most 9mm bullets compared more powerful cartridges like the .454 Casull or .500 S&W. In this case, Phil was using 147gr hard cast bullets made by Buffalo Bore that are designed specifically for deep penetration, which mitigates some of the risk of using a 9mm against a bear. On the other hand, one of the benefits of using a 9mm for bear is that most 9mm pistols have larger magazines and offer the shooter the ability to take multiple rapid follow-up shots, which certainly came in handy in this case.

Below is the story of how it all went down in Phil’s own words in a letter he wrote to Buffalo Bore ammunition:

Two days ago I was guiding a couple from NY on a fishing trip and decided to pack my S&W 3954 pistol. When we were approaching the stream we bumped into a large boar who must have been sleeping as we were talking loud just so we wouldn’t suprise one. Over the past 33 years I have lived and guided here on the Alaska peninsula I have never had to kill a bear in defense of life, but this bear was different.

We were in thick brush and I was only 8 or 10 feet from the bear when he started growling and huffing. I began yelling and it eventually ran around, behind my two clients, into the brush. But within 15 seconds it came charging back from the area behind us and popped out of the brush 10 feet from me! I had the little S&W in my hands and was thinking I was probably going to have to shoot it but as it cleared the brush it headed toward my clients. The man had enough sense to grab his wife and fall backwards into the tall grass. The bear seemed to loose track of them, even though it was less than 3 feet away from them and it was highly agitated! It then swung toward me, I was 6 or 8 feet away, and I fired the first shot into the area between the head and shoulder. It growled and started wildly thrashing around, still basically on the feet of my clients. My next shot hit it in the shoulder and it began twisting and biting at the hits and I continued firing as fast as I could see vitals. Five shots later it turned into the brush and I hit it again and it twisted and fell 20 feet from us!

Brown bears are big, tough animals and it pays to be well armed and to shoot straight if you ever encounter one that’s mad at you. I don’t necessarily recommend carrying a 9mm pistol for defense if you’re in bear country, but it will clearly do the job in the right hands.

Hey, if you stick it in their ear, doesn't much matter what you use.

Grizz

Ya man you missed the carnival rides and popcorn that came with this circus.

quote:

If this has already been posted I did not see it.

Read all about it.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...551077322#6551077322

My bad, was just "republished" in that mag a couple weeks ago . . .

No worries Dom. It probably deserves to be front and centre again.

Question, Except for the initial report I gave Tim Sundles , and he passed on to the NRA, I have not written up a full report on either the testing I did that led me to believe that the 9mm was "enough" , nor a full report of the entire episode.
I have photos of both.

I approached the editor of Handloader and Rifle magazines as I wrote for them for over 20 years and was told that " no one is interested in reading about using handguns for bear protection "

I would like to write up the story for folks who want facts, rather than fanciful melodramatic speculations , that will reach the most people.

Suggestions ?

quote:

I approached the editor of Handloader and Rifle magazines as I wrote for them for over 20 years and was told that " no one is interested in reading about using handguns for bear protection "

Editing with his head where the sun doesn't shine. Tell him to do a internet search about bears and handgun 100s of article and you tube videos out there

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I approached the editor of Handloader and Rifle magazines as I wrote for them for over 20 years and was told that " no one is interested in reading about using handguns for bear protection "

Are they crazy? It's been a long time since they've had knock out issue. They should be begging you to write that article. I'm getting bored reading the same old articles rehashed.

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Originally posted by 458Win:
Question, Except for the initial report I gave Tim Sundles , and he passed on to the NRA, I have not written up a full report on either the testing I did that led me to believe that the 9mm was "enough" , nor a full report of the entire episode.
I have photos of both.

I approached the editor of Handloader and Rifle magazines as I wrote for them for over 20 years and was told that " no one is interested in reading about using handguns for bear protection "

I would like to write up the story for folks who want facts, rather than fanciful melodramatic speculations , that will reach the most people.

Suggestions ?

a book of all your adventures.

I would like to see the article in Petersen's Hunting!

quote:

Suggestions ?

It is called the internet Phil.

www.ammoland.com

www.thetruthaboutguns.com

Both would love your article.

Most likely wouldn't pay as much but could reach hundreds of thousands of readers.

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Originally posted by p dog shooter:
* * * Tell him to do a internet search about bears and handgun - 100s of article and you tube videos out there.

Yeah, ... and I'm sure there are oodles of articles & vids where guys used S&W 9-minimeters firing heavy-for-caliber 'boutique' hardcast loads to put down aggressive bears.

C'mon, let's get serious. Please post the links to all those gazillion articles. Can't wait to read 'em.

Phil's case is simple. He got lucky killing an aggressive bear with 9mm Buffalo Bore hardcast ammo out of a no-longer-serviced Smith 3rd Gen auto.

Good for Phil and good for the folks he was guiding. Everyone got out unscathed.

But because the AK Game enforcers consider Phil to be a 'known commodity,' and therefore credible, he got an easy DLP pass which a different person, in exactly the same circumstances, may not have .. especially a non-AK person.

So, the lesson here for you hard-thinkers: when it's O.K. Corral time in the bush, you do what you have to do, but once the smoke clears it's always good to have 'buddies with badges' when the local gendarmes show up.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
Question, Except for the initial report I gave Tim Sundles , and he passed on to the NRA, I have not written up a full report on either the testing I did that led me to believe that the 9mm was "enough" , nor a full report of the entire episode.
I have photos of both.

I approached the editor of Handloader and Rifle magazines as I wrote for them for over 20 years and was told that " no one is interested in reading about using handguns for bear protection "

I would like to write up the story for folks who want facts, rather than fanciful melodramatic speculations , that will reach the most people.

Suggestions ?

I second the idea of a book.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
Question, Except for the initial report I gave Tim Sundles , and he passed on to the NRA, I have not written up a full report on either the testing I did that led me to believe that the 9mm was "enough" , nor a full report of the entire episode.
I have photos of both.

I approached the editor of Handloader and Rifle magazines as I wrote for them for over 20 years and was told that " no one is interested in reading about using handguns for bear protection "

I would like to write up the story for folks who want facts, rather than fanciful melodramatic speculations , that will reach the most people.

Suggestions ?

Interesting

I would have that Mr. Scovill being the cast bullet guy that he is would have welcomed an article like that. Oh how times have changed at that magazine.

Maybe one of the NRA mags or Guns & Ammo would run it?

I recall an article written by dave scovill on handguns for bears.also one by brian pierce. have saved those issues especially interesting. anybody remember the article abt "old groaner"-fascinating.

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"old groaner"-

Is a tale that has been told for many decades in various platforms.

Is it true could be but certain aspects of it just don't ring right.

quote:

Originally posted by A.J. Hydell

Phil's case is simple. He got lucky killing an aggressive bear with 9mm Buffalo Bore hardcast ammo out of a no-longer-serviced Smith 3rd Gen auto.

Good for Phil and good for the folks he was guiding. Everyone got out unscathed.

But because the AK Game enforcers consider Phil to be a 'known commodity,' and therefore credible, he got an easy DLP pass which a different person, in exactly the same circumstances, may not have .. especially a non-AK person.

So, the lesson here for you hard-thinkers: when it's O.K. Corral time in the bush, you do what you have to do, but once the smoke clears it's always good to have 'buddies with badges' when the local gendarmes show up.

Of course I got lucky, I will be the first person to admit it, and I have been lucky a lot of times over the past 40 years on quite a few charges more serious than this.
But luck seems to favor those who plan ahead and use familiar weapons with proven performance. I left a Glock in the airplane because I had more faith in the S&W. I also carry a Mauser that is no longer serviced when backing up bear hunters too!


Maybe that is why F@G asked me to sort out some problem bears and hunters on Kodiak two months after this incident .

Which did you use to sort out the "problem Hunters" ?

What are they going to publish instead? A rehash about the 270 vs. the 30-06 with new powders? I can’t think of anything more interesting than the article you described. They’re nuts.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
Question, Except for the initial report I gave Tim Sundles , and he passed on to the NRA, I have not written up a full report on either the testing I did that led me to believe that the 9mm was "enough" , nor a full report of the entire episode.
I have photos of both.

I approached the editor of Handloader and Rifle magazines as I wrote for them for over 20 years and was told that " no one is interested in reading about using handguns for bear protection "

I would like to write up the story for folks who want facts, rather than fanciful melodramatic speculations , that will reach the most people.

Suggestions ?

quote:

Originally posted by Use Enough Gun:
I would like to see the article in Petersen's Hunting!

Magazines like PH would be much more interesting if they published more freelance stories by guys like Phil or even other members of AR. Unfortunately, most guys with great stories can't write well but I would take an entertaining tale any day over a story written by a guy on a sponsored industry hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
Question, Except for the initial report I gave Tim Sundles , and he passed on to the NRA, I have not written up a full report on either the testing I did that led me to believe that the 9mm was "enough" , nor a full report of the entire episode.
I have photos of both.

I approached the editor of Handloader and Rifle magazines as I wrote for them for over 20 years and was told that " no one is interested in reading about using handguns for bear protection "

I would like to write up the story for folks who want facts, rather than fanciful melodramatic speculations , that will reach the most people.

Suggestions ?

Get in touch with Scott Olmstead at the NRA, they have published numerous handgun hunting articles. I’d love to see your complete write up.

I skip magazines altogether now because of the volume of ads and lack of content. I can read about beating a dead horse on AR.

quote:

I skip magazines

the only ones I read is the American rifleman because it comes with my life membership.

The American hunter because I trade my rifleman for it..

And any one some one gives to me..

I think the NRA might reach the most folks. Am thinking the American Rifleman rather than the Hunter.

Comments ?

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

quote:

I skip magazines

the only ones I read is the American rifleman because it comes with my life membership.

The American hunter because I trade my rifleman for it..

And any one some one gives to me..

I get the rifleman as well with my life membership. Sometimes it’s months before I actually pick it up. Hunt and fish Alaska send me magazines every month trying to get me to advertise in there. Same five guys writing the same five arcticles seems like. Sometimes I’ll skim those to look at
Pictures. So I guess I don’t skip them altogether, but I don’t read them for content. Unless I see a 416 arcticle, which isn’t very often, and I’ll read that just to see what someone who lives and dies by the numbers has to say.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
I think the NRA might reach the most folks. Am thinking the American Rifleman rather than the Hunter.

Comments ?

Put it in American Hunter !!! Then write a book !!!

quote:

Originally posted by Fourtyonesix:
I skip magazines altogether now because of the volume of ads and lack of content. I can read about beating a dead horse on AR.

quote:

Originally posted by leemar28:

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
I think the NRA might reach the most folks. Am thinking the American Rifleman rather than the Hunter.

Comments ?

Put it in American Hunter !!! Then write a book !!!

I have two book projects in the works now but have learned that they require a lot of work !

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
I think the NRA might reach the most folks. Am thinking the American Rifleman rather than the Hunter.

Comments ?

Yeah I would think the American Rifleman would be the better choice.

I don't really know what the circulation is for gun and hunting magazines nowadays. I doubt it's what it once was. Too many younger folks are unfortunately not hunters anymore but would rather blast away with their AR's.

I still take Rifle and Handloader but they are but a shadow of what they once were. I also subscribe to Sports Afield which is an excellent magazine after its resurrection some time back.

So if I had to guess I would think the NRA magazines at least have a more dedicated audience that would like to read what you have to say. I know I would.

PS: and yes a book someday would certainly be in order.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

quote:

"old groaner"-

Is a tale that has been told for many decades in various platforms.

Is it true could be but certain aspects of it just don't ring right.

I know the guy that owns the rifle that killed Old Groaner. I've never seen it or handled it. Handlogger Jackson really was an absolutely amazing man. If you ever spent time in Yes Bay , Margarita Bay , Behm Canal . Revilla Is and surrounding mainland and islands, and saw where he handlogged. You would be very impressed too. He did pan and mine up the Unik river and other places. The book , Handlogger is a great read.
I don't think Mr Pierce got all the details just right in his article.

I agree that I would love to read an article about that bear event. I am amazed by the vitriolic response to that incident.
Phil had all the gun with him that he thought he would need that day. And used it to great effect ! What's there to get bent out of shape about?
Considering how many people own and can actually hit what they want to with a 9mm autoloaders compared to a 44 mag 45 Colt or larger handgun. I would think an editor would love to get their hands on that story.
It might induce ammo companies to offer improved ammo for all kinds of common service weapon cartridges.

I'm sure that had Phil used a ssa Colt ( Peacemaker) in 44/40 or some such. That editor would have grabbed at the story. Or maybe a blackpowder Sharps or something.
A very prejudicial bias imho.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
Question, Except for the initial report I gave Tim Sundles , and he passed on to the NRA, I have not written up a full report on either the testing I did that led me to believe that the 9mm was "enough" , nor a full report of the entire episode.
I have photos of both.



I approached the editor of Handloader and Rifle magazines as I wrote for them for over 20 years and was told that " no one is interested in reading about using handguns for bear protection "

I would like to write up the story for folks who want facts, rather than fanciful melodramatic speculations , that will reach the most people.

Suggestions ?

Exactly why I dropped my subscriptions to both at the turn of the century. The magazine were more interested in 270 vs 30-306 than something useful and a fresh topic. Perhaps, you should write a book?

I have arthritis in my hands and it hurts to shoot anything bigger than a 9 mm. wonder if that might be the reason for carrying the 9 mm.

As I was told by Tim Sundles, the owner of Buffalo Bore, the reason he developed the heavy loads for smaller calibers was for people who did not want to purchase a heavy caliber , for whatever reason, but still wanted something that was capable of using for the off chance that they need it for protection from large animals.
Which is why, and how I tested it, and ultimately came to be carrying a 9mm rather than either my 44 or 357 magnum that I had been carrying for the past 35 years !

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

quote:

"old groaner"-

Is a tale that has been told for many decades in various platforms.

Is it true could be but certain aspects of it just don't ring right.

I know the guy that owns the rifle that killed Old Groaner......

It might induce ammo companies to offer improved ammo for all kinds of common service weapon cartridges.

I'm sure that had Phil used a ssa Colt ( Peacemaker) in 44/40 or some such. That editor would have grabbed at the story. Or maybe a blackpowder Sharps or something.
A very prejudicial bias imho.

An excellent point. A previous post referred to "boutique hard cast loads". Alaskans have relied on those "boutique" loads for years since the major ammo companies fill the shelves with 240 grain hollow point 44 mag boxes. Before BB and HSM, there was a guy who sold packets of 44Mag with 300 grain Barnes - I even bought them on base at the Elmendorf PX. Heavy hard cast lead loads by BB, HSM, etc don't stay on the shelves long as summer approaches. "Boutique" for Lower 48 is every day carry in AK.

Haven't had to shoot any bears with it, but my Springfield V16 Longslide loves the BB 255g hardcast 45 Super loads at 1100 fps. Recoil, as always, is gentle with the V16.

Nice pistol should work well.

I’m 70 years old and I say this to put a time frame on this.... when I was a teenager I remember reading a story in either Outdoor Life or Sports Afield about a hunter who defended himself against a black bear attack with a 9mm Browning pistol.

There was quite a few follow-up letters about this hunters choice of weapons. I’m sure there has been other occasions where “inadequate” firearms have been used to save a life.

quote:

Originally posted by Uncle Grinch:
I’m 70 years old and I say this to put a time frame on this.... when I was a teenager I remember reading a story in either Outdoor Life or Sports Afield about a hunter who defended himself against a black bear attack with a 9mm Browning pistol.

There was quite a few follow-up letters about this hunters choice of weapons. I’m sure there has been other occasions where “inadequate” firearms have been used to save a life.

Much better than hitting it with a rotten stick as it chewed on you.

As the 70 year old who was involved, I agree