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Yo ! Been going on guided hunts since I was 24 and have paid for these trips in many different ways ... Nothing down and pay for the hunt at the end ... all the way to paying 100% way in advance. (I prefer 40% down and the rest at the end of the trip ... but that is just me ..) Come to think of it ... I was once offered an elephant bull on the installment plan (1/2 down and the rest next year .. I was already hunting ... and I took the fine man up on that deal) I just found out that the outfit that I hunted brown bears with the last two years has been sold and the new owner is not planning to hunt commercially this year .. I have no idea what will happen to the guys who paid already to hunt this year nor the chap that worked in the camp for the last 4 or 5 years in order to get a 'free' hunt ... this very year .. ?????? I am sure that they will be treated fairly but all things considering ... I like my idea of 40% down ... and settle up on the last day ... (I am sure that I would be a lousy business man) | ||
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I have been in this business now for 33 years and virtually all our clients are honest folks : but it only takes one unhappy client - whether they didn't like the rain, or the rugged terrain, or didn't see everything the booking agency ( who had never stepped foot in Alaska ) had promised them, etc, etc to decide not to pay and the majority of a season's profits are gone. Not that I am an expert on it - but I always liken it to prostitution where everyone is excited to start but once it's over it's good by and easily forgotten. Deposits are another misunderstood thing and lost of folks want to know if they can have theirs back if they decide they can't come. If that were the case there is no reason to ask for one but just assume everyone who says they would "like to come" will show up. A deposit means you are buying the hunt and that the outfitter can count on you and will not sell the spot to another. They have fees, insurance, food, preparations and hiring of help expenses well before the hunt begins and that money is spent before the hunt begins. But hunting together is one of the relationships that formed us as humans and often creates lasting friendships. There are many times I will take such a clients word and trust them to do as they say. You certainly must be one of those. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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I would NEVER agree to 100% in advance for the example you stated--guides sell the business, go bankrupt, become sick, get into plane crashes--whatever--and there goes your deposit. Operating from a distance, your chances of legally recovering the deposit are slim to none. Put down the smallest deposit you can. | |||
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That's why you get references. I expect to pay in advance, but I don't hand over the money to somebody I don't know anything about or who started the business last week. | |||
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Phil, I can't even add anything to what you said except that in the years I've been going on guided hunts and the 10 years I've been in the business I've never been on a hunt I did not pay for up front nor have I sold a hunt that did not get paid for up front. It's the industry standard. I don't know one hunt or safari operator that would let a client pay after the fact. It's just poor businees practice. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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Well Mark, I only paid the daily rates up front and the trophy fees after the hunt ( the last evening) to Madubula Safaris...and they are on the top shelf as far as safari operators go...and they hunt many african countries. I hunted SA with them. So..now you know one. | |||
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I understand this is just my experience. But as a hunter I've always had the hunt paid for before being in camp. In many years of hunting I've yet to be burned. The guides I've had, if situations changed for them. They always made arrangements for me. When I get to camp all I have to do is hunt and tip at the end of the hunt. As I said this is my experience. | |||
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Woodrow, I should have seen that coming. Your absolutely right. Trophy fees normally are paid after the fact. Mark MARK H. YOUNG MARK'S EXCLUSIVE ADVENTURES 7094 Oakleigh Dr. Las Vegas, NV 89110 Office 702-848-1693 Cell, Whats App, Signal 307-250-1156 PREFERRED E-mail markttc@msn.com Website: myexclusiveadventures.com Skype: markhyhunter Check us out on https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 | |||
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My Mexico hunts have a base fee and a trophy fee. 50% deposit due at booking and the remainder of the base fee is due 30 days prior to the start of the hunt and the trophy fee is paid only after an animal is killed. I have been screwed in the past, had a guy cancel a check on me one and I was out $6000 for his trophy fee and remainder of base fee. That one stung. I have also had guys back out on the day they were to show up and still owed half for their hunt. I lost money on that as well as I still paid the guide and the cook, I had committed the work to them and the deposit he left didn't even cover the cost of the tag on that ranch. I operate on a tight budget because I don't overbook my hunts. Some operators will take hunter after hunter on their ranches so if they lose a few guys its no big deal. I have some ranches where I purchase 6 tags and only take 4 hunters all season long. I just eat the other two tags every year and because of this my margin is smaller BUT its a quality hunt and its enjoyable for me. | |||
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Mark I know you are and upstanding provider of good hunts. You mentioned it is the industry standard to pay 100% up front for the hunt cost. Who set that standard? I can rest assure it was not the client. Why is the honesty always in the deal, presumed to be the outfitter? if they are reputable they need to have as much trust in the client as the client has in the outfitter. Why is presumed with this policy the hunter is the crook? To me outfitter's that need every dime up front have no working capital and are working on a shoestring which may reflect all aspects of the hunt from terrible camp equipment, shabby boats and atv's failure or junk. And possibly crapy and insufficient foods. I have had bad experinces in Alaska not much fun getting screwed by the outfitter. I am a contractor and have never been paid 100% up front to do a job before I even break ground. I don't think you would or anybody else in this forum would do either. So my point is trust is required on both sides and this is a way to get rid of the shoestring operations. Just a sore spot with me that these guys think they are the only honest people out there and that I would screw them just cause I wanted to. Larry | |||
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You go to a grocer store or restaurant you pay before you eat the food. You get on a plane, bus or train you pay before you leave the gate. You go to Vegas and want to bet you pay before the event - not afterwards. As a contractor would you built something on someone else's property simply on a promise with no capital up front? Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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Can anyone name a restaurant where you pay BEFORE you eat? I have never ate at one..but the food must be something else to pay beforehand. At any rate, I believe it is fair for a business owner to decide the payment plans and he informs the client what the deal is up front. | |||
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I think the days of paying 100% up front are coming to an end. I no longer give 100%up front. I pay 50% up front, if the Outfitter does not like that, I don't go. I have not found that to be the case. In this economy, they take the 50%, instead of advertising cancelation hunts. If an Outfitter says to me 50% is not enough, "what if you don't come", I tell theem 100% is too much what do I do if you go out of business, die, get injured and can't go on the hunt. I beleive the you have half and I have half system, is fair to both parties. We all know, the hunter has very limited recourse to pursue an Outfitter thousands of miles away, to recover his 100% payment. The booking agent sure won't be of much help. Cold Zero | |||
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I wouldn't have thought Phil was such a fan of McDonald's and Taco Bell!  "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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I have always paid, in most cases, 100% up front except the trophy fees which are paid after the kill. If the guide must call the kill, then after I pull the trigger and the game is NOT as the guide called then the outfitter eats the cost of the trophy fee. | |||
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I, too, like the 50/50 split. On most hunts, particularly in Alaska, the ride back to town, or lack thereof, should be sufficient incentive to pay.  Just for the record, I am a contractor as well, and yes it is quite normal not to receive your first payment until you are 60-75 days into a project. | |||
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Cold Zero I agree. Like they say everybody needs some skin in the game. I am going on 2 years with a case in Alaska I was scammed for 10K. As you say almost no recourse for the hunter in any cases in Alaska. Many people do not know the regulation was change to protect the outfitters against any claims against them. They use to have a bond that was for claims against the outfitter but now all they need is a liability insurance policy. This only pays for personal injury or property loss not a defunct hunt. So this leaves you with using the local courts that can take 2 to 3 years Sure its a rare case but with the economy the way it is more and more services are failing. Even outfitters. The people I booked a very expensive moose hunt for 2012 shut their doors lucky got my deposit back. Well the consumer can control the market the business will push to the limit of what the market will bare. Oh well just my 2 cents Larry | |||
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I am not outfitter but on a personal level I have taken a lot of people with me on hunting, fishing and back backing trips. Their are very few people I trust to pay me after the trip. For those other people I get the exspense money up front. I have planed too many trips. Where I made arrangements for the party to have more the 50% back out at the last min. Leaving the rest holding the bag. And Iam not doing it as a job or for profit. I just like to take people along and show them a good fun time. Doing the things I enjoy and love. But it gets real hard when you get caught holding the bag for 6 people when only 2 show up. But when you have their money most well show up and do the trip very few back out then. | |||
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Golden Corral buffet. Pay as you go in the door before you get a table. | |||
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I surely can sympathize with the outfitters wanting 100% in advance.. Lots of expenses. Some one is always screwing it up for others ... Way back in '77 I was on my first safari ($850 down and the balance after the hunt (Ha! Ha!) and the PH John Coleman told me of some guys that were going on full safaris and paying with a cheque at the end of the safari ... The cheque would bounce and when the outfitter threatened to hold on to the trophies until the low lifes paid up ... the guys would just laugh at them ... they had a free hunting trip and could care less about bringing home the trophies ... so that 'trust' went to hell in a hurry ...  | |||
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ok, so the cheesy "choke-n-puke" eateries (they are NOT restaurants) make you pay first....for good reason! | |||
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Bottom line is that any contract is only as good as the participants involved. There are numerous cases of both sides being screwed out of their money. DUE YOUR RESEARCH, CHECK REFERENCES, AND MAKE YOUR FINAL PAYMENT AS LATE AS YOUR CONTRACT ALLOWS. If you don't trust the other party you probably shouldn't be hunting with them in the first place. It is easier to check a reputable guides history then it is for them to check an unknown hunter's. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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You beat me to it.
That is about as good and accurate way of looking at the situation as can be found.  Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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I don't know anyone who pays a Contractor in full, in advance, for something that has not yet been built. The last two Sheep hunts I went on, I did not send a deposit, as I had hunted with the Outfitter before. So, there are honorable guys still out there. One Sheep hunt I got the Sheep the other I did not, either way, the Outfitter still got his money in full, without having to ask for it when I arrived, nor was he worried about it. As 458 Win said, K' is only as good as those who signed it. Leaving trust out of it, it is good business for Outfitters to get paid in full up front, it is also good business for Hunter's to give 50% up front and the other half upon arrival in camp. If you are under the impression that all Outfitters require payment up front, then you should ask and negotiate the terms of the K', I don't care what the others customers usually do. In this economy, you would be surprised what can be negotiated. Dealing with an Outfitters who has a long established track record, does afford some level of protection, but certainly is not a guarantee that all terms will be lived up to. I know better first hand. I have taken screwings in Alsaka from Outfitters reknowned for the animals they specizie in, with 30+ years in the business as well as Outfitters in Canada. So, I have quite a bit of experience trying to resolve issues, or get a refund and I am here to tell you that the system is set up to protect the Outfitters, not the hunters and you will quickly find out that you are far behind the 8 ball, when you start the process. I recomend paying with a US Postal MO, for some small level of protection. I have paid Canadian Outfitters with US Postal MO and some will take it if you ask. Everything is subject to negotiation, if not and you don't like the terms, go elsewhere. The fact that Phil is a long time contributing member of this forum who communicates publicly with his potential and actual customers and has a long track record of happy and successful customers, does not mean that most Outfitters conduct their business as he does, I feel he is more the exception, than the rule. Be ware, mistakes can be very expensive. If you get paid well in advance and get a Cert' Check from your customers, the need to check them out is negated. You can interview them by phone about their level of experience, marksmanship, physical condition and so on. Any Outfitters, or businessman who takes a personal check has asked for the screwing, that a good business practice to do that. If payment is coming later, then specify, CASH, even CC check can be stopped these days, or Postal MO. Cold Zero | |||
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In that famous poem 'Desiderata' there is a line which says that the world is full of trickery. How true and how sad. In my hunting career, however, one of the finest compliments, if that is what it could be called (?) is going back to the elephant hunt on the installment plan. The ivory was already in my home before the balance of $3,500 U.S. was due. Yet another memory from days of yore ,,, It was 1989 and my lady and I had just finished a buffalo/tuskless hunt in the Chete. We were at the outfitter's camp at Kavija .. and I was paying off the late Dave Masson. When I handed him the final amount he yanked the wallet out of my hand !!! ???? He looked insided the rather flat wallet and said, ' You have no money left !' I assured the gentleman that we had enough to get back to Canada. No way he was going to go along with that. On the spot he gave me back $500 just in case..... I gave him a cheque and we left. These were men of men in my opinion. A special part of some wonderful memories of Africa. | |||
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Interview by phone? You must be kidding! Every hunter on AR will gladly type away ad nauseum regarding their bravery, marksmanship and physical fitness. I think your right, this weak economy does allow for some contract negotiation. I hope you are prepared for the shoe on the other foot and the businessman not only not being willing to negotiate terms but being un interested in doing business with fellows with your attitude at all! In my case, there are times when I've certainly been disposed to negotiate based on my need, but other times the price and terms are set in stone and I stop accepting phone calls from argumentative potential customers mighty quick. The internet is a beautiful thing. research regarding outdoor outfitters is easy with tools like AR and I'd feel comfortable meeting the contract terms of an outfitter I trust based on my research. I just had a customer offer to pay me in full in advance and I told them absolutely not! | |||
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Yes, Scott Outfitters do interview customers by phone, common questions asked What is your level of fitness how much do you weigh how is your health history do you have any special needs or requirements how is your marksmanship What level of expereince do you have have you hunted in Alaska before what rifle/caliber/scope set up are you bringing how close do you need to be and on and on I have experienced Outfitters who will alter their terms/normal mode of operating for me and others who would not. DO you think I lost any sleep if an Outfitter told me their terms or non negotiable, or do you think I just called someone else ?  Seems to me I get email on almost a daily basic from Outfitters who are looking for Hunters and or have "cancelation" hunts to unload. It says a lot about your attitude toward your customers that meeting in the middle at 50% deposit and the rest upon arrival is having an attitude, while you having 100% is just fine, talk about a one sided point of view. You can keep your slot, I will go with one of your many competitors. The first time an Outfitter gives me an attitude or fails to return my call in a reasonable period of time, when he does call me I tell him I already booked with someone else ! Feeling comfortable going with an Outfitter, is not the same as agreeing to all of their terms. Customers can have one, without the other. Next ! I take it as a sign that maybe it is better I don't go with them and have a problem, then go against my many years of better judgement. While you made it clear that negotiating in business is being arguementative, I just see it as doing business, nothing personal. Cold Zero | |||
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I've paid half up front,the second half on arrival, half up front the rest on leaveing, everything up front, and nothing up front. Trophy fees in package form have been paid in advance, and trophy fees have been paid on leaveing. On one occasion I sent the money after I got home. That's just about every combination there is. After being screwed royally once, I will never again hunt with an outfitter unless I'm holding onto some of the money until the end.Friends have been likewise cheated. If they don't like it, they can get a different client or I can find a different outfitter. There's lots of both out there. | |||
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My tags average more than what the 50% deposit covers so anybody that wants to try to negotiate will be looking for another outfitter. I do have "skin in the game" so to speak as I have a lot of overhead to do these hunts. In fact, my profit lies in the trophy fees that are assessed upon kill. One of the reasons we do the trophy fee is so the client knows that there is incentive on our part to put out a fantastic hunt. The other reason is because that harvest fee makes people a little more selective in the animals they choose to shoot and that benefits all of our hunters. I have had people try to "negotiate" in the past and I cannot think of a time I booked one of them. Its pretty simple really, if somebody doesnt like the terms of the hunt I offer they can go elsewhere, I'll even get them started in their search for a new outfitter by giving them some names and numbers. There is a reason that some guys will do anything to book a hunt | |||
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Just what I was sayin'! Drummond it appears you have some good mule deer hunting. If you have a niche like .458 has or Like a Save Conservancy operator does, it looks to me like you can set your terms and un compliant clients quickly become non clients. No loss for you since theres possibly ten clients waiting in line for the argumentative one to get booted out. I have a niche here in Dillingham and as I said above, sometimes my terms are non negotiable. The CZERO's of Dillingham sometimes are forced to play nice with me since in some cases I'm the only game in town. Yep, the boots been on the other foot more than a few times and I've had to deal in order to just get out with a sliver of my ass left. All I really said is business swings both ways on a circumstace by circumstance basis and hardline one way'ers like CZERO oughta be ready to sit home a year or seven. | |||
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Rich sport hunters can more easily bear the risk of loosing some disposable cash than can outfitters operating on a string. | |||
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In this economy, hardly likely, you have had enough of the shine. Take a break. Cold Zero | |||
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Cold Zero | |||
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By Mark H. "I can't even add anything to what you said except that in the years I've been going on guided hunts and the 10 years I've been in the business I've never been on a hunt I did not pay for up front nor have I sold a hunt that did not get paid for up front. It's the industry standard. I don't know one hunt or safari operator that would let a client pay after the fact. It's just poor business practice." _______________________________________________ The above is not my experience at all. I have been on trips with 3 different African safari companies, 2 different Alaskan Outfitters, 2 different Canadian Outfitters, 1 Argentine Outfitter, and 7 different Outfitters in the lower 48 and only paid up front once (that was 50% deposit and 50% at commencement of the hunt). All the others had the balance paid at the end of the trip. On a trip to Zim in 2001, the money was held in the US until after the safari was completed and then was wired to the PH. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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What a despicable way to live one's life. I'd have no problem seeing them shot on sight. | |||
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I typically require a 50% deposit up front and ask for the remaining 50% upon arrival and I only got burned once. I'm on the fence about changing to ask for the remaining 50% 14 days prior to arrival. The reason being not that I don't trust most people i deal with but it it's easier to make deposits and verify there good but it makes it easier to settle up with all our expenses beforehand as well, and I just hate having to ask for money when you arrive, for me it's just seems to be an odd situation and always put's a damper on things in your first hours in camp. I would rather have already delt with it and the hunt be nothing but relaxing, fun, challenging and successful all the way through. That being said I have made other arrangements with repeat clients as far as payment plans something like( 2 payments of 25% within 30 days of booking, 25% somewhere in the middle and 25% upon arrival) but this is mostly guys I've delt with more than once. I don't do trophy fee's because we expect every hunter to have a chance at a very good trophy, however we are not the ones pulling the trigger and making the shot. You have to understand most of our hunts are very physically demanding but we can adjust to your speed. The sheep on the other hand don't cut anybody a better break than the next and all we can do is our best and if it fails get moving again, find more sheep and try again. They way I determine if a property is fit for me to take you hunting on is wether or not I think me or one of my guides could kill a 30" sheep in the first half of the hunt by themselves. i think this offers everyone a fair chance in a full hunt and we can also still hunt or drive around on the ranger and try and get lucky or be prepared to make a long shot. Ya'll are definantly right about an outfitter or guide having to negotiate otherwise they can pass up business if the customer chooses. Everyone has a choice, just like any other business. Bar B Diamond Outfitters Specializing in Free Range Aoudad Sheep hunts. Also offering all Texas native game and many exotics. | |||
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mikelravy/ how selfcentered are you? "Rich sport hunters"? Lest you forget; there are lots of folks that save for years to fulfill a dream and book a guided hunt. Perhaps it will be their only opportunity to go on one. Some guy sweats in a shop for 3 or 4 years to set aside $$ and you insult them assuming that all hunters roll in $$$. This guy looks forward to seeing new country, meeting new folks, and if lucky, taking a representative of the species. Please let us know what outfitter you guide for so we can vote with our wallet. I have no problem with 50% to book a hunt that is a year or two off. Nor do I have a problem with a final payment 60 days in advance of the hunt. Perhaps you should view hunters as being cut from the same cloth as guides/outfitters. But my first Alaskan guided hunt was bad enough to sour most hunters for years to come. It cuts both ways/Chaz | |||
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Hey you Alaska guy's correct me if I am wrong I don't think legally you can even start a hunt in Alaska unless you have a completely excuted contract which I believe needs to be paid in full before the hunt begins. Might be wrong on the money part. I know there is a bunch of records the outfitter fills out and keeps record of when you get to camp. If you all go with the recommendations from some of these AR hunters who have been there and have the experience you will be happy with the deals Have fun on any hunt and remember most hunts have bumbs in the road and adds to the overall experience. Larry | |||
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elk, you are correct that Alaska requires a contract to be filled out before the hunt begins. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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I have never paid in full before the hunt on hunts in the lower 48 or Canada; I paid a deposit and settled up on the last day in camp. Most lawyers want a "retainer." I don't deal with lawyers who want retainers. You do the work, I will pay you when completed; my customers don't pay us until after we complete the work or deliver the software, so why should I be treated differently? I find I have no problem finding lawyers who bill me after the fact. | |||
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about it. I will still be going on hunts, long after you are out of business. With your attitude, no one will even miss you.