https://www.ammoland.com/2018/...ents-by-caliber/amp/


Very interesting read.

I still say shot placement, is king. Shoot what you can draw quickly and place accurate hits with.

I will bet that some here will know some of the survivors involved in the cases studied. LOL.

Very interesting article. Thanks for posting.

"Bear spray was utilized but only extended 10 feet into a light head wind and did not reach the bear. The bear would not disengage. It kept coming back and getting closer. The aggressive bear was finally shot with the 9 mm pistol at close range."

This clearly illustrates why I do not want to put all my eggs (or my life) in the bear spray basket. I'd rather have a gun, or at least a gun in addition to bear spray.

Thanks for posting. Interesting data.

As some of us have posted on this subject, a pistol beats a stick or fist any day.

And according to these stats, it's 97% effective. Good enough for me...

Those of us who didn't fall for the false data put out by the pepper spray manufactures and save a bear at all cost people.

Knew all along that when needing to stop a determined attack by an armed opponent a good reliable firearm is better then spray.

Yes bears are armed with cutting, stabbing, slashing and impact weapons let alone size and speed to use them very effectively.

Spray does have it uses but stopping an determined attack it is 2nd compare to a good relievable firearm of decent caliber

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
Those of us who didn't fall for the false data put out by the pepper spray manufactures and save a bear at all cost people.

Knew all along that when needing to stop a determined attack by an armed opponent a good reliable firearm is better then spray.

Yes bears are armed with cutting, stabbing, slashing and impact weapons let alone size and speed to use them very effectively.

Spray does have it uses but stopping an determined attack it is 2nd compare to a good relievable firearm of decent caliber

Pepper spray can work just fine. Lots of people use it in places with real bear problems. Brown bear country. While I have no problem with anyone carrying a gun for bear defense (as I frequently do) I also recognize not everyone entering bear country is Wyatt Earp. Bear spray has its place and isn't some conspiracy theory. Bears have extremely powerful/sensitive noses. The sound and cloud can be enough to deter a bear. The pepper spray in that nose is definitely a deterrent. Perfect? Of course not, but what is?

Brett

quote:

Pepper spray can work just fine. Lots of people use it in places with real bear problems.

As I have previously stated spray has its uses. The most common and probably the best use is harassing problem bears.

When I am camping my group has a can or two around just for that purpose. It is much simpler to spray the problem bear then shoot it.

For people who can't by law or who are adverse to carrying a firearm it is better than nothing.

For this it works just fine for stopping determined attacks it is lacking.

Agree. The 10mm AUTO in a Glock 20 or G40 is awesome personal protection while out & about in the AK bush.

The Danish Sledge-Patrol Sirius soldiers carry 10mm G20s loaded hot, in the event a polar bear suddenly attacks or charges into camp. They operate in the northern regions of Greenland.

SPS guys are also issued the .30-06 1917 bolt rifle, but if they're caught without it when a polar bear shows up, they go to their G20s.

Then it's O.K. Corral time.

I've got Jake with his 416 Ruger backing me up. Bob

I've always wondered how good is bear spray when a bear is determined to charge, and you are spraying INTO a heavy & strong wind, or even a full value wind at right angles to the spray direction. That is not a problem with a gun. Is it a problem with spray?

quote:

Originally posted by surefire7:
I've always wondered how good is bear spray when a bear is determined to charge, and you are spraying INTO a heavy & strong wind, or even a full value wind at right angles to the spray direction. That is not a problem with a gun. Is it a problem with spray?

At the link below you well find a interesting picture of a bear, spray and sprayers hat.

http://gunwatch.blogspot.com/2...ifles-worked-on.html

Well, cute pictures of bears simply don't make up for when bear-spray fails.

The bear be pissed and the Tyro gets dissed - as in dissected - at which point there's hell to pay back at the dumbass store where the Tryo bought this bruin-ineffective sheit.



Skip the Beta-Male crap ...

Pack a properly loaded 10mm pistol and a rifle, but if the rifle gets too heavy and you set it down to do something else, keep your 10mm within reach.

That's what the 'Sirius' Pros do.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

quote:

Originally posted by surefire7:
I've always wondered how good is bear spray when a bear is determined to charge, and you are spraying INTO a heavy & strong wind, or even a full value wind at right angles to the spray direction. That is not a problem with a gun. Is it a problem with spray?

At the link below you well find a interesting picture of a bear, spray and sprayers hat.

http://gunwatch.blogspot.com/2...ifles-worked-on.html

Wow.

Great article p dog.

Just about what one would expect in the wind.

I thought his summary was quite good: Spary is good for persons who do not want to carry guns, but not as good as a gun itself!

I would concur.

The only thing that can stop a bad bear is a good bear with a gun.

Or something like that.

Bear spray or gun, neither is likely to be of much help, unless you see the bear early enough to deal with him. Lot of attacks, it's a total surprise, for one reason or another.

Grizz

quote:

Originally posted by Grizzly Adams:
Bear spray or gun, neither is likely to be of much help, unless you see the bear early enough to deal with him. Lot of attacks, it's a total surprise, for one reason or another.

Grizz

Well most of the people mentioned in the stories above had time to use their defensive tools before the bear made contact.

Why do you keep perpetuating the myth that one does not/will not have time to use their defensive tools.

Please feel you post a list of all these sudden attacks where people didn't have time to use defensive tools and could not fight back even then.

Or are you saying some one shouldn't fight back even if the bear makes contact. Thus bending over and kissing your Ass good bye.

Personally I decided if someone or something attacks me I am going to do my very best to stop that attack with the beast resources I have.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

quote:

Originally posted by Grizzly Adams:
Bear spray or gun, neither is likely to be of much help, unless you see the bear early enough to deal with him. Lot of attacks, it's a total surprise, for one reason or another.

Grizz

Well most of the people mentioned in the stories above had time to use their defensive tools before the bear made contact.

Why do you keep perpetuating the myth that one does not/will not have time to use their defensive tools.

Please feel you post a list of all these sudden attacks where people didn't have time to use defensive tools and could not fight back even then.

Or are you saying some one shouldn't fight back even if the bear makes contact. Thus bending over and kissing your Ass good bye.

Personally I decided if someone or something attacks me I am going to do my very best to stop that attack with the beast resources I have.

I can think of at least three cases locally, where a bear victim was found with a loaded weapon by his side. My point is, when you are in bear country, your first line of defense is awareness of your surroundings at all times and possible danger locations. I've spent many years in bear country, including Grizzly and I still have my scalp.

Grizz

quote:

I can think of at least three cases locally, where a bear victim was found with a loaded weapon by his side

Produce the facts. Not just I heard from a friend of a friend or Joe told me so.

Bear killings and attacks are normally well documented. Produce the documentation and the facts.

Then compare the amount of successes to the failures.

I live in bear country and I traveled and camp in Grizzly country on a regular basics for decades also, your point is.

I still have my scalp also.

quote:

Originally posted by Grizzly Adams:

* * * My point is, when you are in bear country, your first line of defense is awareness of your surroundings at all times and possible danger locations. I've spent many years in bear country, including Grizzly and I still have my scalp.
Grizz

Agree with the awareness point, but the Big Bruins are rarely known to take scalps when killing humans.

Overwhelmingly, a fatal mauling is preferred.

quote:

Originally posted by Grizzly Adams:

* * * I can think of at least three cases locally, where a bear victim was found with a loaded weapon by his side.
Grizz

Tyros most likely, and clearly from one of two causes:

the victims either froze in terror or were simply too slow on the draw, having failed to practice 'bear engagement' drills with their sidearms - for which there should be training classes given using electronic moving 'bear targets' to somewhat replicate a bear's charge, or at least a bear 'in motion,' as opposed to just a stationary target.

Those with the heavy-recoiling boat-anchor wheelguns will not like such training and after a range session consisting of an hour or so of shooting drills will quickly head to the nearest AK gun retailer to trade in their Mega-Magnum boat-anchor for a 10mm Glock model 20 or 40.

quote:

Those with the heavy-recoiling boat-anchor wheelguns with not like such training and after a range session consisting of an hour or so of shooting drills will quickly head to the nearest AK gun retailer to trade in their Mega-Magnum boat-anchor for a 10mm Glock model 20 or 40

I would agree that compared to the extra large size of the X frame smiths or the large size BFR revolvers in 460 or 500 and some other rifle type calibers.

That Glock 10 mm is lighter to carry and a bit faster to get out of the holster and allows ones to have faster follow up shots.

Superior to other auto loaders and revolvers besides some less weight no. Having carried many different types of handguns every day for defensive purposes for decades.

Having been a LEO and civilian instructor for many decades having trained into the thousands of people to use firearms to defend themselves.

Having shot well in excess of a 100 thousands rounds through various handguns. Having studied ballistics, tested hundreds of rounds of ammo in a lot of different materials.

Having use hand guns for defensive purposes, shot in many and took first place in matches.

Took the high shooter in two police academy classes. Having hunted with and shot many heads of game with handguns.

Having shot bears, some at very close ranges with handguns. Having seen many other bears shot by others.

Having studied and researched bear attacks for decades.

I found good firearm is a very useful tool for defending ones self.

I have access to and own and could carry about any type of handgun you want to mention. Shot and carried many of them.

When it comes to carrying out in the woods for self-defensive purposes.

A good revolver is hard to beat.

But what I carry or what you carry is a personnel choice.

It would be interesting to know what the 3% have to say.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
It would be interesting to know what the 3% have to say.
Cal

Most likely I wish would have been a better shot and practiced more.

Having interview many survivors and victims of personnel assaults where they had to defend themselves.

That is what I have found to be one of the things people had to say after being in a self defense situation.

Most guys do not practicce enough and or have not gotten enough Professional training and will under stress default to their lowest level of skill mastery. I find it hard to beleive that given the above, that guys will shoot their hand cannon as well as they would a lighter caliber.

After all, it is about fast, well placed shots to stop the attack.

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Zero:
Most guys do not practicce enough and or have not gotten enough Professional training and will under stress default to their lowest level of skill mastery. I find it hard to beleive that given the above, that guys will shoot their hand cannon as well as they would a lighter caliber.

After all, it is about fast, well placed shots to stop the attack.

I found that after training knowing a lot of gun people in and out of law enforcement.

The numbers break down like this 90 percent of gun users hardly ever shoot or train with there firearms.

7 percent train on a some what regular basis once to a couple times a month.

3 percent are the gun people they eat sleep guns shoot weekly, get training, shoot matches, reload and or shoot what most other gun owners would think is a reticules amount of ammo.

Owning and using guns are huge part of their life's.

There can be overlap in all categories and depending on where one is at in ones life it can vary a lot.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
It would be interesting to know what the 3% have to say.

The dead are not known to be chatty about the particulars of their demise, much less assign blame to themselves.

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Zero:
Most guys do not practicce enough and or have not gotten enough Professional training and will under stress default to their lowest level of skill mastery. I find it hard to beleive that given the above, that guys will shoot their hand cannon as well as they would a lighter caliber.
After all, it is about fast, well placed shots to stop the attack.

Agree. Well said.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Zero:
Most guys do not practicce enough and or have not gotten enough Professional training and will under stress default to their lowest level of skill mastery. I find it hard to beleive that given the above, that guys will shoot their hand cannon as well as they would a lighter caliber.

After all, it is about fast, well placed shots to stop the attack.

I found that after training knowing a lot of gun people in and out of law enforcement.

The numbers break down like this 90 percent of gun users hardly ever shoot or train with there firearms.

7 percent train on a some what regular basis once to a couple times a month.

3 percent are the gun people they eat sleep guns shoot weekly, get training, shoot matches, reload and or shoot what most other gun owners would think is a reticules amount of ammo.

Owning and using guns are huge part of their life's.

There can be overlap in all categories and depending on where one is at in ones life it can vary a lot.

Not sure about training, but I'm in the once or twice a month category. Just shoot my 45 and 45 Super so no hand canons, typically am just fine out to 25 yards then my old eyes betray me

quote:

Not sure about training,

Training can be relative to what you are trying accomplish.

You can train yourself as long as you can recognize the mistakes you are making. If your making any.

But going to the range and making the same mistakes over and over just reinforces bad habits.

Blasting ammo down range just to blast is not training.

Professional help can save you time and money in the long run the cost can be the price equal to a few boxes of ammo it is easy to waste that much if you don't know what you are doing.

I haven’t found a good way to train for 400-1500lbs of gonna tear you apart coming at me. I can practice shooting. But I haven’t found a way to train for that oh crap moment. Having been in that oh crap moment and know what actually happens, I don’t think there is a safe way to recreate that moment.

You react in the OH CRAP moment the way you train.

It has been demonstrated many times over.

Myself included and many people I have interviewed that have had an OH CRAP moment.

Whether it is bear trying to tear you apart a criminal or enemy solider trying to kill you.

If you train properly you well react properly for the most part. Along with proper mine set is normally a winning combination.

Here is prime example a young trooper from my former dept. first day off of field training in a cruiser by himself.

He was following a murderer and bank robber waiting for back up the suspect lead him into dead end parking lot and ambushed him as he rounded the corner.

Despite taking two fatal hits from a FN 5.7 pistol he was able to exit his cruiser draw his pistol and place several fatal rounds into his attacker before dropping dead.

He had never been in a fire fight before.

Mind set and training, training and mind set.

How do you train for a bear charge you get bear targets and you shoot them from different distances. You set them up as movers and chargers.

You turn you back to them and turn and fire you have some else yell bear then you react.

You think and train if this happens I am going to do this or that. You play the what if game what if this happens what am I going to do.

Then you practice and practice. You mount your rifle or draw you handgun over and over until it becomes 2nd nature,

You dry fire, you live fire you condition your mind to react, not stand there and say oh crap what am I going to do.

Best of all you develop a heighten sense of what is going on around you. Then hone your reactions to warning signs.

So you are reacting instead of just standing there wondering if it is really happening to me.

That is how you train and develop good solid defensive skills.

Then when the OH CRAP moment happens and you end up winning. And you are wondering afterwards most likely you well say that is how I trained.

Good response.

Prime example of training to react and not stand there.

My wife likes picking wild berries we have a large bear population that likes them.
My wife who is a very good shotDecided to carry her handgun.

So I decide to giver her some bear defense training.

We walk out the back door to my range. I set up a target and tell her when I yell bear to shoot the target.

Then I hand her a ice cream bucket she goes what's that for I said that is bucket full of blueberries.

I asked she ready she says what should I do with the bucket I yell bear SHOOT SHOOT SHOOT.

She stands there holding the bucket with dumb look on her face.

Then I asked her why she didn't shoot she says I was holding the bucket.

Then I said don't you think dropping the bucket and shooting the bear would be a good idea.

After a couple of times she no longer holds onto the bucket,

I would do the same drill with new officers and citation books.

I would tell them even through the citation book is important. Drop the dam thing and get into the fight.

Training and mind set, mind set and training.

Also good to train for it being a bluff charge. I’ve had bears stop at three or four yards and just stomp their feet and huff. Luckily I didn’t just start shooting as soon as they were charging, it just didn’t look right....

quote:

Originally posted by Fourtyonesix:
Also good to train for it being a bluff charge. I’ve had bears stop at three or four yards and just stomp their feet and huff. Luckily I didn’t just start shooting as soon as they were charging, it just didn’t look right....

Doesn't matter.

The Self-Defense law doesn't require you to be clairvoyant and somehow read the bear's mind (if bruins had one) to discern a 'bluff' charge from a real one. Hesitation will get you killed.

Only animal-rights Nazis would insist that you're required to wait 'til the Grizz is nibblin' on your nads before it's 'okay' to shoot him off you.

Oh it matters! I ain’t gonna waste a bear just cause it’s running my way. There is a point where I feel like it’s to much, that’s when guns go off.

quote:

Originally posted by Fourtyonesix:
Oh it matters! I ain’t gonna waste a bear just cause it’s running my way. There is a point where I feel like it’s to much, that’s when guns go off.

Then that's on you.

Your 'point' or 'line in the sand,' ain't everybody else's. It's all subjective in these circumstances, unless you hesitate too long, and then you're just dead meat.

quote:

Oh it matters! I ain’t gonna waste a bear just cause it’s running my way. There is a point where I feel like it’s to much, that’s when guns go off.

One has to decide through their knowledge and experience what is the proper action to take.

That very well could be a half a second decision.

Over the years I have had a couple bears pop their teeth, stomp their feet at me. But I was ready if one can't place a round or more then one round on target when you have that target in your sights.

One needs more practice.

I didn't shoot either of them because they decided not to press the issue.

Dealing with a bear you shoot in a DLP shooting is a real royal PITA.

So if one does not have to shoot one it is a better thing.

Then when a bear is worth thousands of dollars alive to you there is even more incentive not to kill them under the DLP law.

That said I well not hesitate to stop a bear from making contact with me.

Honestly the hassle of packing out a dlp bear from who knows where and ruining someone’s hunt weighs more on my mind than the bear being worth thousands to me alive. Even if it wasn’t worth anything to me, I don’t have the blood lust to just kill something if I don’t feel like my life or those with me is being threatened.

But I understand feeling threatened is a variable term depending on each persons experiences.

I toted my 454 Ruger redhawk 7.5 inch barrel 11 of 12 years in Alaska for bears .I made a easy too flap Holster and added a Rifle sling to.carry it mAde it was easier to carry .I could write a book about close encounters with the grizzlies and coastal bears of Alaska .I had then try to get into my tent ,Bronco ,camper,house you name it .The worse time was at the glacier park in Juneau before you could carry pistols .A baby bear rolled off the hill to our feet then cried for its momma.I saw the sow come running and I.pulled my girlfriend as hard as I could away from the bear.The sow was easy 8'6 -9 foot and hauling butt .We ran till we meet couple with a stroller and warned them .I got up on a Rock and watched till I located the bear .That couple wanted to go away from the bear but the bear circled us and got.behind them quick .I waited till the bear was clear to move from the high Rock .It was getting dark so I.helped the couple with.The baby out of the park .I told my gf at the time no more park adventures or anywhere we could not carry a gun ! There was a nurse that got mauled shortly after that near Juneau .Then a guy shot a ten foot bear at some place they had a live feed camera in a field .I was glad he shot that bear someone would have gotten eaten by him .I always had problems with them the first nights of summer .Then an moose season .
I.toted that 454 fishing ,hunting ,hiking.camping took it in the car everywhere when I just riding in the northern part of Alaska and bought another one .I saw bears bedside the dump pull car doors off like opening.A can of sardines to get food inside .I shot crap out of that 454 too full loads always and could hit stumps easy out to 100 yards with it .They are awesome guns .I have to clean below the ejector rod where powder built up .I always carried 300 grain bullets should of had hard cast bullets .Bear spray is a bad joke a gal got eaten by a bear last year above where I use to live trying to use it on running bear .All the Bush planes I few in.wouldn't let you carry bear spray in their planes .They had a few cans go off by accident and almost crashed because of it .