Will if one taking action to prevent injury or death in one area of ones life that has a miniscule risk.

Then taking action in the other areas of one life that have far greater risks.

Would just seem reasonable.

I have had both experiences in AK.

By far most of my hunting is the gun is loaded and on safe, but as far as I’m concerned, if I or the guide think there is an issue with loaded rifles, it’s fine to go with an empty chamber, although to me, time really isn’t the issue, noise is. A gun action being worked and loaded is a pretty distinctive, unnatural sound. That said, it hasn’t cost me much in the way of opportunity - I’ve fumbled with the safety more than loading.

I just don’t like being BS’d about how it’s an insurance issue. That is the universal statement the empty chamber guys have given me. When I have said don’t give me that crap- if you prefer unloaded, fine, just don’t lie about why, I’ve always gotten a litany of bad gun behavior. No big deal, if it makes folks more comfortable, it’s no skin off my rump.

Like Mark said, if communication is good, it’s not a problem.

Well gentlemen, If guided the guide makes the rules. However I have hunted all over Southern Alaska in many cases, especially along rivers, and in tight alder patches where bear scat is everywhere, and in many cases where you can't see more than ten feet in any direction. In one case I walked right up onto a half eaten Moose that was covered with moss, if that brown bear had been sleeping off a big meal before I saw him, I would not have had time to chamber a round in my rifle, and even if I did I probably wouldn't have had time to get off a shot before he would be on me or my hunting partner.

NOW! I was not guided, but was hunting with a friend, and I was nor hunting brown bear, but the bear certainly would not know that, or care that we weren't there to steal his food catch.

If I were hunting brown bear, I would have to be accompanied by a licensed guide because I am not a resident of Alaska, and in that case the guides rules are his right, but when traversing tight cover for any distance, he would get an argument from me, or we would simply skirt that tight cover all together because I am not walking into tight cover in Alaska with an unloaded rifle. If that pissed him off he would just have to get pissed! In Alaska I load my rifle when I leave camp, and unload it when I get back in my tent, and place my 41 mag handgun in my holster when in camp.

………………………………………………...

\

quote:

Originally posted by tsturm:

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
You are far more likely to get injured by a bear then you are to get shot by an unintentional discharge.

Many cases of bear attacks every year hard to come up with a unintentional discharge injury.

You & this bears are mauling every one is starting to get weird

Seems that way doesn't it.

quote:

Originally posted by tsturm:

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
You are far more likely to get injured by a bear then you are to get shot by an unintentional discharge.

Many cases of bear attacks every year hard to come up with a unintentional discharge injury.

You & this bears are mauling every one is starting to get weird

Your point is.

Every one has hobbies one of mine is researching and studying bear attacks.

It has been for 50 years.

Don't like the data prove it wrong.

Killing old wife's tales and myths is kind of fun.

But it sure rankles those who have believed them for so long.

I can understand guides trying to reduce risk as much as possible. For their sake as much as for the client's. If things go pear shaped and a guide is on the receiving end of a large caliber projectile - that leaves the client pretty much SOL. You are miles from help - in a place that may not be accessible by road/snowmobile/aircraft (weather dependent) - and a client from the Lower 48 probably doesn't have any idea about who to contact - if you have the means to summon help.

I understand the danger from bears - by reading and hearing of other's experience. But I know first-hand about the dangers of clients with guns. I used to guide upland game hunters. (NOT dangerous game, not in heavy cover, and not in a remote location). During the 6 years that I guided, I was shot at 9 times. The definition of "shot at" is WITHIN LETHAL RANGE AND THE SHOT CHARGE PASSES WITHIN 1 FOOT OF MY BODY".

In the short time a guide and client are together in the field - there is no way to accurately assess whether a client (or guide) is safe under pressure. And before you are tempted to say it - no, law enforcement or military are not exempt. I have seen many transgressions by those folks too.

While I may feel personally aggrieved because a guide doesn't intrinsically understand that I am imminently qualified to carry loaded - it is his decision. I place my entire well being in his or her hands for the duration of the hunt - whether getting to and from the hunt area or while afield. And if I have done my homework, I should be able to do so without losing any sleep about it.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

quote:

Originally posted by tsturm:

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
You are far more likely to get injured by a bear then you are to get shot by an unintentional discharge.

Many cases of bear attacks every year hard to come up with a unintentional discharge injury.

You & this bears are mauling every one is starting to get weird

Your point is.

Every one has hobbies one of mine is researching and studying bear attacks.

It has been for 50 years.

Don't like the data prove it wrong.

Killing old wife's tales and myths is kind of fun.

But it sure rankles those who have believed them for so long.

This debate reminds me of snakes and the chaps/boots vs nothing argument.

I was out doing some long range practice yesterday and nearly stepped on a rattler, but in the time I have lived in AZ I have learned a lot. I look for disc shapes and S sticks; totally unnatural in the desert. Unless they are sunning themselves, they like to lie near funnels. Days when the temps are 80-85 are prime time and I am doubly alert. I could go on, but you get the point. I feel comfortable not wearing snake boots or chaps but some guys don't walk off the road without them. Same goes with bears I would guess; those that live in the bush or spend a lot of time in it feel comfortable not being locked and loaded 24/7.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

quote:

Originally posted by tsturm:

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
You are far more likely to get injured by a bear then you are to get shot by an unintentional discharge.

Many cases of bear attacks every year hard to come up with a unintentional discharge injury.

You & this bears are mauling every one is starting to get weird

Your point is.

Every one has hobbies one of mine is researching and studying bear attacks.

It has been for 50 years.

Don't like the data prove it wrong.

Killing old wife's tales and myths is kind of fun.

But it sure rankles those who have believed them for so long.

Would be interested in seeing your data and statistics. From listening to the news I would think a lot more people are shot accidentally than mauled by bears.

And the survival rate from bear attacks is much higher .

I am traveling next couple of weeks hunting. So it could be away to compile it.

First off we need to decide what we will include and not include in the data all hunting mishaps or only those that could be considered unintentionally or so called accidental discharges.
As that what we really are talking about with carrying a unloaded chamber or rifle.

One can if they want come to a different conclusion if they do not have a solid base to work from.

As it is a totally different type of hunting mishap when one hunting partner mistakes you for game.

Then let's say tripping or dropping ones rifle and having it fire.

We are talking long guns so and handguns accidents would be excluded also.

Then are we only talking acidents where people die along with only where people are killed by bears.

Or all bear attacks.

Or when people are injured.
So there is much more to good analysis then raw numbers.

So I am working on a good data base and what and what well not be included.

Also remember there is a huge bias against firearms in media reporting

Typing on phone please excuse mistakes

And one could also argue that most bear mauling could be called "accidental" if the victim was not killed.
Simply a bear teaching a human some manners

Or just the opposite that the bear failing to kill it victims was accidental

But both only holds true if you believe bears think like humans

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
Or just the opposite that the bear failing to kill it victims was accidental

But both only holds true if you believe bears think like humans

If a bear has the intent to kill , they have the knowledge and ability .
And bears do have the ability to reason. They are much smarter than dogs.

I’ll wait here till you guys come back around again still with nothing resolved.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
Or just the opposite that the bear failing to kill it victims was accidental

But both only holds true if you believe bears think like humans

If a bear has the intent to kill , they have the knowledge and ability .
And bears do have the ability to reason. They are much smarter than dogs.

So a bears knows when to stop ripping and tearing so not to kill you.

Or that a life flight and skill medical help well save your life.

Bears like all large predators start eating a lot of their prey while it is still alive.

It has nothing to do with just scaring or wanting to kill it.

It is a fault of humans that they want give animals human traits.

There’s a lot of human faults....like assuming. Everything.

If bears, especially brown and grizzly bears, were actually attempting to kill you like they do full grown moose or other bears, there would be a lot less maulings and more deaths.
Lion and leopard maulings in Africa are quite similar as large predators are quite adept at killing things quickly.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
If bears, especially brown and grizzly bears, were actually attempting to kill you like they do full grown moose or other bears, there would be a lot less maulings and more deaths.
Lion and leopard maulings in Africa are quite similar as large predators are quite adept at killing things quickly.

Large predators are not quick and efficient killers.

I know we all heard the stories but for the most part they are just that stories.

Look at these and then continue to tell us how quick and effective they are.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzwbOZKfrUQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YipewEkakzA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nk-SrpaP8oI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8m6-n_kX96s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_VxxapxA6c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBCiohETt1k

Don't know how many examples you want if you need more just do a youtube search and you will find lots of them.

The idea that large predators are quick and effective killers is just another myth.

They don't kill relatively small prey fast let alone a full size moose.

That is why we have more mauling's then deaths.

Not because they can reason.

Feel free to find the quick "humane" kills you are talking about and post them.

I once watched a bear catch and release salmon. Which I though was odd. After about 10 fish it finally kept one and low and behold...stripped out the eggs. I kept watching. It was fishing for females.

I had a sow grizzly and three cubs in a bait barrel one day. Sow kept trying to push the barrel around the tree. But the two chains would bind up when she stood and pushed on the top. She sat down. Stared at the barrel. Then lifted it from the bottom so the chains are slack and moved it around the tree.

They reason. They kill and react with reason.
May not show up on the internet research or YouTube videos but there’s people who have seen bears do things others have not. Internet is not the only source of information.

Isn’t there that video of the grizz up on the north slope that kills two or three muskox babies in a row. Quick and fast and on to the next one? Buddy found three dead moose one day, heads all broke in half at the eye sockets where the bear would kill them. Was a 8’ grizz.

No hard fast rules with bears.

quote:

Originally posted by Fourtyonesix:
I once watched a bear catch and release salmon. Which I though was odd. After about 10 fish it finally kept one and low and behold...stripped out the eggs. I kept watching. It was fishing for females.

I had a sow grizzly and three cubs in a bait barrel one day. Sow kept trying to push the barrel around the tree. But the two chains would bind up when she stood and pushed on the top. She sat down. Stared at the barrel. Then lifted it from the bottom so the chains are slack and moved it around the tree.

They reason. They kill and react with reason.
May not show up on the internet research or YouTube videos but there’s people who have seen bears do things others have not. Internet is not the only source of information.

Isn’t there that video of the grizz up on the north slope that kills two or three muskox babies in a row. Quick and fast and on to the next one? Buddy found three dead moose one day, heads all broke in half at the eye sockets where the bear would kill them. Was a 8’ grizz.

No hard fast rules with bears.

Come on now, you know if it isn't on the interweb it never happened. How could people that work around/live around the biggest carnivores on the continent know more than the interweb searchers?

After forty years of guiding in Alaska I still see new things every year.
I don't need someone who vicariously watches You Tube to show me what happens as I watch bears kill moose, caribou and other bears every year.

Black bears are known for eating humans (occurs in about 80% of attacks where the human is killed by the bear).

Brown bears seem to be a different story. Either a quick mauling and out, or else they wait after the initial mauling and make sure you are dead.

However, the grizzly man and his girlfriend found out (actually the on-site responders) that they do occasionally eat people.

Never can tell with critters.

BH63

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
After forty years of guiding in Alaska I still see new things every year.
I don't need someone who vicariously watches You Tube to show me what happens as I watch bears kill moose, caribou and other bears every year.

Your statement doesn't answer the question.

quote:

Brown bears seem to be a different story. Either a quick mauling and out, or else they wait after the initial mauling and make sure you are dead.

There have been people who have survive double mauling's

It not that uncommon for bears to attack a second time.

Most likely behavior learned from knowing they didn't kill it the first time.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:Your statement doesn't answer the question it avoids it.

How much gas do you burn TROLLING?

Some times it is hard not to.

Well, since I started this thread and maybe to bring it back on track...

While I appreciate the predilection of Alaskan guides (as opposed to African Professional Hunters) to direct clients to carry cold, many of you here described a few scenarios where it makes perfect sense to carry cold, but I was specific in my OP:
Getting off the boat after spotting tracks and knowing bears are in the vicinity, I reserve the right to carry hot and it's something I would ask before I wrote the check for the deposit and if the answer is "no", I'll find another guide...

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Well, since I started this thread and maybe to bring it back on track...

While I appreciate the predilection of Alaskan guides (as opposed to African Professional Hunters) to direct clients to carry cold, many of you here described a few scenarios where it makes perfect sense to carry cold, but I was specific in my OP:
Getting off the boat after spotting tracks and knowing bears are in the vicinity, I reserve the right to carry hot and it's something I would ask before I wrote the check for the deposit and if the answer is "no", I'll find another guide...

That's super fair Jorge and should apply to any of your preferences.

" Blanket Statements" or answers are hard to honestly defend sometimes. " I never" or " I always" ,........ " I wouldn't let you,"

Well it just doesn't always work. The guide and the client need to work these details out on the ground face to face.

True, wear your seatbelt, no drinking while handling firearms and a few others do usually get generalized and it's good, but in your scenario, how thick is the brush? How competent have you demonstrated yourself to be with a firearm to the client? Are you hung over? Are you gasping for air after the first twenty steps? This isn't answerable via AR.

Given my very limited experience or exposure to pdog shooter, ( just here on AR,) as a guide I would pass on him as a client or guest. Pdog is to arrogantly opinionated to be "guided" in my opinion and I don't need the aggravation and danger of having a client with no experience insisting against and rebelling from my advise and guiding. If one is willing to argue ad nauseum with veteran big game guides using their YouTube collection as evidence, well,...........in front of the computer is where I think they should stay.

Id think that after a guide and client have established a comfortable relationship, especially after repeat times together a client Hunter could do whatever they darn well want with no intervention from the guide, it's between the two of them.

I do remember one lion attack where the client killed the lion as it was gnawing on the PH.
If the PH had been carrying the client’s bolt, no more PH.

And there have been cases where the guide has shot clients.

If a guide demanded to catarrh my bolt, I would let him/her provided they give me their bolt.

Fair is fair.



BH63

Africa, in elephant areas, I'm carrying hot.

Alaska or similar (Yukon, Kamtchatka, etc), I'm mostly willing to follow the guide's instructions.

I've got very limited experience with brown bears, being 2 trips to Kamtchatka. Both times, the Russian guides wanted me to cary cold while we were walking. Once we spotted bears, they wanted me hot while stalking.

I think we non-Alaska residents probably overestimate the immediate danger factor. I'm good with following the experts advice. BUT ... I'll keep my bolt thank you!!

quote:

" Blanket Statements" or answers are hard to honestly defend sometimes. " I never" or " I always" ,........ " I wouldn't let you,"

Which is precisely the ONLY thing I was trying to convey to a self-righteous individual on another forum/discussin

quote:

Originally posted by Fourtyonesix:
I once watched a bear catch and release salmon. Which I though was odd. After about 10 fish it finally kept one and low and behold...stripped out the eggs. I kept watching. It was fishing for females.

I had a sow grizzly and three cubs in a bait barrel one day. Sow kept trying to push the barrel around the tree. But the two chains would bind up when she stood and pushed on the top. She sat down. Stared at the barrel. Then lifted it from the bottom so the chains are slack and moved it around the tree.

They reason. They kill and react with reason.
May not show up on the internet research or YouTube videos but there’s people who have seen bears do things others have not. Internet is not the only source of information.

Isn’t there that video of the grizz up on the north slope that kills two or three muskox babies in a row. Quick and fast and on to the next one? Buddy found three dead moose one day, heads all broke in half at the eye sockets where the bear would kill them. Was a 8’ grizz.

No hard fast rules with bears.

I watched a bear fishing this fall catch a fish, rub the fish across the front of his nose, then throw that fish back in the water.

I have no doubt bears reason as well, they are incredibly smart, and the more time people spend in close proximity to them, the more a person would understand this.

One of my favorite examples of a bear reasoning was right after we put an electric fence around our meat shed.
We watched numerous sows and smaller bears get zapped, walk around and test each side and eventually give up.
Then one evening a massive old boar came by and walked up to the fence and got shocked.
He backed up and sat down, looked at the fence for a minute, then stood up and smashed the entire fence down with one swipe of his paw and walked right through it !

And their ability to think and reason is one of the reasons I don't feel any need to carry a round chambered -most of the time !
There are time I like to carry a round chambered. And also allow clients to chamber a round.
But I have learned that people who are so bearanoid and afraid to go without a round in the chamber at all times are more of a danger to me and my guides than bears.

Phil,

Do you tell your clients why you prefer them not to be loaded at all times except when told to (safety) or not?

Frankly, I can’t understand why anyone feels the need to have a loaded rifle while on a horse or in a vehicle, but some feel they need to. I trust my guide to know when I should chamber a round, and take their advice. I suspect that if there is game around, I will be expected to shoot at it, but only after the guide decides if it’s worth shooting.

I have also been told to load due to perceived danger that I did not see/feel the same level of concern... that was an eye opener. (Deer hunting with concern of illegal immigrants and drug running). I did as asked anyway, I’m paying them for local knowledge.

Hiring the professional services of a guide is similar to hiring an MD or accountant.
You don't have to take their advice but in the case of a guide, once you are on the hunt you do have to hunt with them

When in Africa, if the PH says to carry a round in the chamber, I do as he says as I trust his judgement.

I watched a sow and yearling cub walk up to a fence. All the cub did was drop his head and walk right thru it. So his nose didn’t touch the wire.
Then momma, bless her heart, buried the power source. She knew where the problem came from. Pretty cool animals.

At the USFWS camps I have watched bears walk around their electric fence and grab just the insulated handles on the gate.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
One of my favorite examples of a bear reasoning was right after we put an electric fence around our meat shed.
We watched numerous sows and smaller bears get zapped, walk around and test each side and eventually give up.
Then one evening a massive old boar came by and walked up to the fence and got shocked.
He backed up and sat down, looked at the fence for a minute, then stood up and smashed the entire fence down with one swipe of his paw and walked right through it !

And their ability to think and reason is one of the reasons I don't feel any need to carry a round chambered -most of the time !
There are time I like to carry a round chambered. And also allow clients to chamber a round.
But I have learned that people who are so bearanoid and afraid to go without a round in the chamber at all times are more of a danger to me and my guides than bears.

"most of the time" goes to my point, "round in the chamber" at all times is of course not needed. Bottom line is there are no absolutes, I just wish one of your "brethren" would get this simple philosophy. Then again from what I gather, his insecurities will keep him from admitting he's wrong. Easy call for me though, I wouldn't hunt with him on a dare..

Jorge, as you and other knowledgeable hunters know, every hunt involves variables. Just like flying.
And it pays to listen to the old guys who have survived.

Straight up truth, without absolutes