The rather touchy issue of carrying "hot" (bullet in chamber) vice cold.

In Africa, it was my experience once you got off the truck and on spoor, you loaded your rifle, engaged the safety, off you went and as always, exercising common sense with muzzle control.

On another forum it was mentioned that guides in Alaska will 100% not allow a client to carry hot until the final approach to game, including the big bears. I can see where carrying cold is the way to go if you are say, out in the tundra glassing, but if you are hunting near heavy cover as in for example you are floating down a river and either see a bear (or moose) or their tracks and debark to follow into the alders, I as a client are compelled to keep a cold chamber until instructed by the guide to do so. I must confess I would not be comfortable with this practice, so I would love to hear from all of you. Thanks in advance. jorge

i would guess that the rough terrain and the possibility of a fall has a lot to with it - as well as firearms safety is much more stressed here
as for me = i alwayscarrey empty unless i'm closing in for a shot

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
The rather touchy issue of carrying "hot" (bullet in chamber) vice cold.

In Africa, it was my experience once you got off the truck and on spoor, you loaded your rifle, engaged the safety, off you went and as always, exercising common sense with muzzle control.

On another forum it was mentioned that guides in Alaska will 100% not allow a client to carry hot until the final approach to game, including the big bears. I can see where carrying cold is the way to go if you are say, out in the tundra glassing, but if you are hunting near heavy cover as in for example you are floating down a river and either see a bear (or moose) or their tracks and debark to follow into the alders, I as a client are compelled to keep a cold chamber until instructed by the guide to do so. I must confess I would not be comfortable with this practice, so I would love to hear from all of you. Thanks in advance. jorge

Not a guide or a client but,
If I have never hunted with you, you are not going to walk behind me with one in the pipe. I have witnessed muzzle control issues with far too many newbies - experts (Cops/Troopers)alike. Aint gonna happen!

quote:

you are not going to walk behind me with one in the pip

Of course I can respect that. How about if I am in front?

It just depends on the person and circumstance.
I strongly advise my fishing clients to not bring a gun at all. They get in the way and we're 100% not going to need it, and if "lightning" does strike, there's other options than they having a gun.
When hunting, again I think it's circumstantial. I wouldn't mention gun safety unless I needed to, nor would I mention loaded chambers if I didn't think I needed to.
If I think I should address both I will.

Thanks, Scott. Makes perfect sense.

jorge,

I don't think the empty chamber thing is universal in AK at all. I think it is dependent on how the guide feels about the situation. As you know I lived in AK for many years. If I was hunting I had one up the spout always. I've hunted with folks that were fumbling for their rifle to get it loaded and the moose was gone.

Mark

Thanks Mark!

Circumstances certainly dictate when and where I have one in the chamber when guiding. For my sheep hunts, and the majority of my guiding, I nor the client will carry one in the chamber.

The exception is when I guide SouthEast Alaska brown bear hunts. We are often still hunting over extremely tight covered salmon streams. In these situations, we carry one in the chamber. Sometimes if we have to scale a log jam or other awkward terrain, we will pull one out of the pipe.

As a guide, there is no worse feeling than turning around and seeing a muzzle pointed at you, that is for sure.

We have just wrapped up our peninsula bear season and during the decompression sessions with the guides and packers the scariest stories always revolved around gun handling by clients.

When following up wounded bears we naturally have rounds chambered , but otherwise never !

Thanks Phil. Appreciate the feedback. My only purpose of this exercise was to see if this was a "blanket" rule with ALL Alaskan guides and from what I have gathered here and elsewhere, that is not the case. How about as I described in my post above?

When seconds count.


Attacked by Grizzly


Joe Ferronato

Sep 30, 2019

In the evening hours of Sept. 6, two Alaskan moose hunters ventured out for a quick glassing session. Scott Willis and Shane White, both Alaska natives and lifelong hunters, are no strangers to bear country. They were prepared—it is Alaska after all—but an attack was the last thing they expected.

White owns a cabin near the Eureka Roadhouse in the Matanuska Valley east of Anchorage. He says it’s bear country, but he’s barely ever seen them nearby. The pair took off on four-wheelers, traveling about 5 miles from the cabin to glass.

“When we were going out that evening we were only going to go out and glass until it got dark, then head back to the cabin,” Willis said.

They located a good bull and wanted to get a better look, so they hiked about a mile closer. The moose was still far off, so they weren’t concerned about being loud hurrying through brush. They were making enough noise that they didn’t believe they would startle a bear.

As they came into the bottom of a small drainage, a 7-foot grizzly appeared out of the brush.

“When I first saw her, she was already at full speed, ears pinned back coming out from behind the bush. She was set on Shane,” Willis said.

However, the bear turned wide and targeted Willis instead. He was able to get his rifle off his shoulder and chamber a round.

“I remember bringing the muzzle up to her and she was about a foot away when I was able to pull the trigger,” Willis said. “I heard a shot go off. I could see the blast from the muzzle kind of ruffle her neck. She didn’t act hit.”

Unfortunately, the shot didn’t connect with bone or vitals. Later they found that the bullet just grazed the fur on the side of the bear’s head. The bear overtook Willis, knocking him to the ground.


“The actual [time with] her on me was pretty blurry. I remember she had my boot in her mouth and she was doing a head shake and going to town,” Willis said. “Then I remember she let up and that’s when she reared up and she brought her two front paws up and she started snapping her mouth.”

The last thing he remembers is when the bear bit into his head—her upper jaw on top off his head and her lower jaw down behind his ear on his neck.

White was standing just 10 yards away from Willis. When the bear first came out he took a cartridge off the stock of his gun and loaded it, then he heard Willis scream. The bear was on top of Willis, bouncing up and down. White got right next to the bear and fired.

“She blew off and was on her back and her toes were pointing straight up in the air,” White said.

Interesting comments. Thanks.

During the short period that I worked in AK packing, I wasn't super impressed with our clients muzzle control. We asked the people we were guiding not to put a round in the chamber and on one occasion were a little shocked at the end of the day to know that the muzzle we had seen pointed everywhere throughout the day had a loaded round at the opposite end of it.

Lee

I could generalize and say around here I never have sure, steady footing. Tall grass, slippery aluminum boat, ungroomed game trails, tundra, fallen trees, bushes etc, (oh, I forgot the damned dog bolting to and from, here and there, forward and back,) all seem to conspire to get me to stumble.

I wouldn't say I fall down alot, but the footing isn't like on a concrete sidewalk.
I can see gripping my rifle as I lurched and having a disaster.

How does anybody hunt game in the rough when a quick shot means going home with game or empty handed.

Swamps and other hard to walk areas are not exclusive to AK.

One would never shoot a flushing grouse or running deer if one had to load a your fire arm at the flush or jump.

I think excitement, terrain and overall not knowing the client is ( as a client ) I will keep one out until the time comes
And as a guide in my younger days, clients can be more dangerous then charging griz
Job as a guide is to communicate with client way before the hunt commence and stress gun safety, fast loading gun when time comes to shooting and everything involved prior to that, as safety first. Nobody comes back from the dead...

p dog shooter,

Exactly! I grew hunting flushing grouse and running whitetails as you described. I didn't know until many years later that folks ever hunted without a cartridge in the chamber. Only two outfitters in 30 years have suggested they would be more comfortable if the chamber was kept empty until the moment of truth. Of course I gave them no argument and the hunts lent themselves to this discipline. Both guides were very conscientious about telling me when to load or unload and all worked out fine. Having said that I can see at that final moment as a client standing there waiting for the go ahead to load up, it never comes an the shot opportunity is lost.

Mark

Flushing grouse and running deer for an afternoon with known friends is not the same a leading a complete stranger, many of whom are unfamiliar both with firearms and bears, across rugged terrain for over a week.

Phil,

I certainly don't find any argument with your logic for obvious reasons but it also does not negate what I wrote. As I wrote the two guides that wanted the chamber empty until you were ready to shoot were excellent about communication as when or when not to load up. On the other hand I can see a less experience guide getting caught up in the moment and just not communicating to his client that he needed to chamber a round thus causing a lost opportunity.

Mark

Just because a guide has a client do something.
I do see a guide not wanting a client who doesn't know what he is doing having loaded firearm behind him.

Doesn't mean the rest of the world has to follow suit.

I seen this no round in the chamber being pushed by many in the hunting communities.

As Mark I grew up hunting where ones chance might only be a split second.

I have only went on one guided hunt. We used horses I didn't see a problem with placing the rifle in the scabbard. With out a round in the chamber.

When game was spotted and we got off the horse a round was chambered.

When I shot my elk that trip from the time it stepped out and I pulled the trigger maybe 3 seconds.

The extra time it would have taken to chamber a round most likely would have resulted in a missed opportunity.

Hunting in areas where the game doesn't stand around to let one look at it for minutes. Where the woods are thick and visibility is sometime measured in feet not yards.

One learns to carry ones firearms safely and ready to use. Then one learns to shoot fast and accurately.

Dumb stuff happens.

I do not carry with one in the chamber.

If it takes me an 1/2 second to charge a rifle, and I die in that time, I'd rather die by bear that get killed by another idiot with a round in the chamber.

Maybe I am just being too picky, but after seeing two people die from accidents with " unloaded" rifles and sporting a scar I'm my thigh from another unloaded rifle I am not likely to change my opinion.

And one of my younger guides, who was being chastised by a hunter older than his grandfather who was adamant about his right to carry a chambered round because he "had always done it that way " simply replied that that was the same thing the last hunter who almost shot him had said

Kodiak guide Joe Want always removed the bolt from his clients rifles and carried them until he judged their gun handling was safe

quote:

When I shot my elk that trip from the time it stepped out and I pulled the trigger maybe 3 seconds.

The extra time it would have taken to chamber a round most likely would have resulted in a missed opportunity.

Hunting in areas where the game doesn't stand around to let one look at it for minutes. Where the woods are thick and visibility is sometime measured in feet not yards.

Move to Alaska already! You clearly have a bone for everything Alaskan. Then you can be a certified Alaskan expert. Tell everyone that will listen to carry a S&W 5O revolver and carry a 45-70 loaded with hard cast when you go to the grocery store.

I'm sure you're a fine hunter, but I wouldn't hunt with you if you're taking snap shots at game. I don't need venison that bad. If I miss a shot and I go home empty handed because I didn't hose off a round (if it's brown it's down...), too bad. In fact I've gone home many times empty handed because I didn't take a questionable, quick shot.

After witnessing some dangerous buffoonery in the field and doing some serious thinking about my responsibility over the years, I won't put a round in the chamber, until it's time to shoot.

If my guide tells me to chamber a round, I'll do it - it's time to rock and roll. Otherwise, no.

It has nothing to do with AK.

I hunted in 7 different states AK included and Canada.

Didn't find actual hunting AK that much different then other places. Getting to the hunting spots require different logistics.

But the actual hunting no. Glassing, stalking walking seem really similar.

If ones shooting ability doesn't lend one to hit what you are shooting at then one should not be taking those shots.

We are talking safety here. Doesn't matter where you are hunting safe gun handling is safety gun handling.

If you don't feel safe enough to walk around with a loaded firearm.

There most likely there is a reason your guide doesn't allow you to have loaded rifle.

But having spent over 70000 hours carrying loaded firearms every day 8hrs a day plus.

Not including all the thousands of hours an thousands of miles walked while carrying them while hunting.

I could see where one with limited experience could consider themselves unsafe with a loaded firearm.

That sounds like a personal problem injecting ones own inadequacies onto others.

Still, nobody has addressed the scenario I posted; you are floating down river hunting moose (or bear) you spot some tracks (of either or both) and you come ashore and decide to start tracking and into the bush, alders, whatever. May I as a client load up or remain cold until the animal is either spotted, smelled or heard?

I and my clients do not load up until we have something to shoot at.
(Bear bait blind they get loaded and set in the corner)
Never lost a chance at a animal. Cause if it takes a split second (whatever that is) to shoot I will need a extra one of those to identify target first and legality.
Never got mauled. I have however loaded my gun and shot s bear that charged. Correction. Picked up my gun, loaded and shot. Having that gun loaded would not have changed anything.
More likely to have a gun accident than a bear accident.
I have seen nothing in the field worth the risk of carrying loaded rifles.
Handguns in a holster are different. But as far as a rifle in the hands. Never loaded.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by jorge:
Still, nobody has addressed the scenario I posted; you are floating down river hunting moose (or bear) you spot some tracks (of either or both) and you come ashore and decide to start tracking and into the bush, alders, whatever. May I as a client load up or remain cold until the animal is either spotted, smelled or heard?[/QUOTE)

That can be answered by you and your guide. There is a lot of variables in any given situation.

quote:

Originally posted by Fourtyonesix:

Never lost a chance at a animal. Cause if it takes a split second (whatever that is) to shoot I will need a extra one of those to identify target first and legality.

Surprising it took this long to come up on this thread. All grouse are legal. All moose are not.

I carry my rifle loaded when deer hunting, even while walking to the stand (I unload when climbing into it) but I am by myself. When I am with others, I prefer to keep my chamber empty and prefer they do as well. I would, however, have a problem if my guide ever asked to carry my bolt. He or she can ask me a million times if my rifle is unloaded - even show proof, but don't ask for my bolt.

p dog shooter,

If you don't have an aversion to being shot, good for you. Most of the rest of us would prefer not to have additional holes in our bodies.

Lee

It seems that as usual, the answer to the question is, " depends who you ask." There seems to be no 100% blanket rule.

What I consider to be a larger issue within the internet are the self anointed authorities like pdog that will dedicate the time and energy to insist above and beyond all others, ( it seems 458 win in this thread, ) that they are not only right, but their commands are the only ones needed heard. In this case, on The Alaska Forum, regarding guides and clients in Alaska, and pdog being in Wisconsin and no experience with the title here.
Lucky us.

I usually hunt with a round chambered and rifle on safer

I grew up hunting quail. When hunting with others I learned to watch my muzzle at all times, especially when birds were flushing. I also learned to correct someone else real quick if they let a muzzle point even in the general direction of myself or a co-hunter.

On my trips to Africa hunting buff and ellie, we (me and PH) always chambered a round while on the ground and always cleared the chamber before getting into a vehicle.

In bear camp the rule was you could chamber a round after you were in the blind AND the baiter had left the area. Before getting into the pickup vehicle, both pistols and rifles had to be completely unloaded, chamber and magazine. They were checked each and every time.

I had no problem, their camp, their rules.

The problem is when you have an excitable client with an overactive imagination and a loaded gun.

There are imaginary dangers and real dangers, some people can’t distinguish between the two.

I would not hunt with a guide who insisted on carrying the bolt to my rifle while we were hunting, especially in an area with DG. There are guides with more common sense available.

Safety is the most important thing on any hunt, but being treated like a child is not something I am willing to pay an outfitter big bucks for.

If the outfitter doesn’t trust me, I probably shouldn’t trust him/her.

I once talked to a man that had his leg chewed on by a black bear. He said he surprised the bear at 10 yards or so and the bear was on him so fast he didn’t have time to even raise his rifle, must less get off a shot. For those encounters, which are rare, you would probably regret not having a round chambered.

JMO

BH63

If you need time to determine the legality of the game being pursued.

That is fine but it has nothing to do with proper gun handling and safety.

I see no difference in carrying a shotgun and hunting flushing birds or carrying a rifle and hunting big game. As far as safety is concerned except one has be aware of the greater range of the rifle.

I just don't know how parties of 10 or so pheasant hunters determine what is a legal bird.

Fire many dozens of rounds and kill dozens of birds while all the time carrying loaded firearms. With in close proximity of each other and several dogs running around.

Do it for days on end while walking dozens of miles. Year after year.

With out shooting one, another or a dog.

Must just be a dam miracle.

If a person can't walk around the woods and fields with a loaded firearm safely.

They really need to evaluate their gun handling skills.

Carry your firearm as you see fit.

If you spend the money to hire a guide then it is up to both of you to come to a agreement on the matter.

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:
It seems that as usual, the answer to the question is, " depends who you ask." There seems to be no 100% blanket rule.

What I consider to be a larger issue within the internet are the self anointed authorities like pdog that will dedicate the time and energy to insist above and beyond all others, ( it seems 458 win in this thread, ) that they are not only right, but their commands are the only ones needed heard. In this case, on The Alaska Forum, regarding guides and clients in Alaska, and pdog being in Wisconsin and no experience with the title here.
Lucky us.

We are just lucky to have you set us straight.

quote:

If a person can't walk around the woods and fields with a loaded firearm safely.

They really need to evaluate their gun handling skills.

I carry unloaded to prevent accidental discharge in the event of an incident. Ie...branches, falls, weird one in a million things. Not because I can’t safely handle a firearm. There’s a big difference. Lay your hackles down.

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Still, nobody has addressed the scenario I posted; you are floating down river hunting moose (or bear) you spot some tracks (of either or both) and you come ashore and decide to start tracking and into the bush, alders, whatever. May I as a client load up or remain cold until the animal is either spotted, smelled or heard?

Speaking for myself, I would ask the guide if I should chamber a round and then follow his instruction.

quote:

Originally posted by Fourtyonesix:

quote:

If a person can't walk around the woods and fields with a loaded firearm safely.

They really need to evaluate their gun handling skills.

I carry unloaded to prevent accidental discharge in the event of an incident. Ie...branches, falls, weird one in a million things. Not because I can’t safely handle a firearm. There’s a big difference. Lay your hackles down.

That is one way of doing it.

But you do something far more dangerous all the time. You operate rate motor vehicles.

One can prevent vehicle accidents by not driving also.

You are far more likely to get injured or die from a vehicle crash of some type then ever have a firearm accident.

13 killed in ATV crashes in 3 years

26 snowmobilers killed in one year

Hundreds killed an injured in auto/truck crashes

Have you stopped using your motor vehicles trucks, cars, snowmobiles and ATV's.

It is easy just don't put fuel in them.

Injury by unintentional discharge while hunting is almost non existent. Death is even rarer.

You are far more likely to get injured by a bear then you are to get shot by an unintentional discharge.

Many cases of bear attacks every year hard to come up with a unintentional discharge injury.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
You are far more likely to get injured by a bear then you are to get shot by an unintentional discharge.

Many cases of bear attacks every year hard to come up with a unintentional discharge injury.

You & this bears are mauling every one is starting to get weird

I think most outfitters and guides have bad experiences because they have had a few clients that have more money than common sense.

Some may have very limited hunting experience, or it has all been done with guides.

Combine this with the excitement of a hunt in Alaska, Canada, Africa, or wherever, and the client is outside of his/her comfort zone.

Actually seeing a bear or a lion, gets them so pumped up, they get overly excited and then are truly a danger to everyone around them.

I've met a few guys like that, and I never hunt with them again.

The guides never know what kind of person they are hunting with, so set up rules that lean on the conservative side. Better safe than sorry.

As long as the rules are reasonable, I can live with them.

The guides want to live to hunt another day.

BH63

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

quote:

Originally posted by Fourtyonesix:

quote:

If a person can't walk around the woods and fields with a loaded firearm safely.

They really need to evaluate their gun handling skills.

I carry unloaded to prevent accidental discharge in the event of an incident. Ie...branches, falls, weird one in a million things. Not because I can’t safely handle a firearm. There’s a big difference. Lay your hackles down.

That is one way of doing it.

But you do something far more dangerous all the time. You operate rate motor vehicles.

One can prevent vehicle accidents by not driving also.

You are far more likely to get injured or die from a vehicle crash of some type then ever have a firearm accident.

13 killed in ATV crashes in 3 years

26 snowmobilers killed in one year

Hundreds killed an injured in auto/truck crashes

Have you stopped using your motor vehicles trucks, cars, snowmobiles and ATV's.

It is easy just don't put fuel in them.

Injury by unintentional discharge while hunting is almost non existent. Death is even rarer.

You are far more likely to get injured by a bear then you are to get shot by an unintentional discharge.

Many cases of bear attacks every year hard to come up with a unintentional discharge injury.

Ok.



Ps....For sale: a boat, a bath tub, a ford truck, guns, pencils, machete, knives, oreo’s, rope, a case of coke, box of matches and a slippery driveway.