quote:

Originally posted by AlaskaCub:
This thread has to be one of the most retarded discussed topics I have seen in a while. Some dumbazz blurts out some ridiculously poor written jabber about calibers, with all his statements having been proved false for 100 years and then we go back and forth comparing velocity differences between a 458 and a 30-06. This one should have ended long ago. I still dont even understand the title of this thread, what the hell does elephants have anything to do with women shooting .30 cals and brown bears....retarded?

If it is such a "retarded" post, why did you reply to it 9 times??

amen

I am just translating what I though gumboot458's main point is. If I misunderstood, I am sure that he will steer me in the right direction.

He may not be the best writer in the world, but the point of his original statement is that in his opinion, a large-caliber rifle is more effective on brown bears when loaded with well-constructed, but relatively lighter bullets at higher velocities, than with the heavier bullets used for African game. His reasoning is that a lot of penetration is less important for stopping brown bears at close range than a lot of shock and tissue damage. Hence his references to "red misters." If I correctly understood his point, he is mostly commenting on the effectiveness of different bullet weights and velocities within the context of the cartridges typically associated with African dangerous-game hunting.

The .30-06 and .308 parts are bird-walks not particularly related to his main point. As someone who hunts with big-bores, I for one am interested in opinions on his main topic from those such as Phil, who have shot or have seen shot more than one or two brown bears at close range.

Dave

quote:

Originally posted by M70Nut:

quote:

Originally posted by AlaskaCub:
This thread has to be one of the most retarded discussed topics I have seen in a while. Some dumbazz blurts out some ridiculously poor written jabber about calibers, with all his statements having been proved false for 100 years and then we go back and forth comparing velocity differences between a 458 and a 30-06. This one should have ended long ago. I still dont even understand the title of this thread, what the hell does elephants have anything to do with women shooting .30 cals and brown bears....retarded?

If it is such a "retarded" post, why did you reply to it 9 times??

Per my replies I was wishing it would die!

Thank you Loudnboomer ....... You got my point.......I am glad many other people have also... ...People get rather upset when I tell them their favorite rifle is a girls rifle ,, ________________ But what started my tirade was the Real ,,, it is [ right now real ] ... not virtual ,,,,,,, Not false or un true.....Occurances of bears wounded and lost by people useing .30 caliber rifles or smaller here this year and this fall where I live...... Those bears have not been accounted for........ Liveing here I know of many other bears that have been shot and lost...By the 06 with 220 gr bullets......And the other 30 calibers...... includeing the 30/30..............With lots of different loads................................The title for this thread came from people stateing they would use heavy for caliber bullets for brown bear......................Perhabs those people were confuseing or useing the term insead of the term [Quality ,,,tough bullets] So since it is genrally easier to make a long shot with a rifle that has a flat trajectory and because " I " think there are several cartridges that will do everything in ALASKA well with quality ,lighter weight bullets @ HIGHER VELOCITIES........ And they kill bears Real Well........AT POINT BLANK range with chest shots or head shots or quartering shots or stern shot .To the best of my knowledge there have been no bears shot and lost around here by deer hunters useing 338 on up cal. rifles ..... People who found themselves in a situation where they felt they HAD to shoot , ,.,.,.,.,. ...................458Win doesn,t share my view about light fast bullets as compared to heavy , more moderate velocity bullets for dumping bears............However I stated that heavy bullets do work,,,,,,I,ve used them and so have friends of mine.. But the light fast 40-458 cal X bullets and others that will hold together @ high velocity make head shooting a deer @ 75-300 yrds much easier......,Not in small part because they recoil less............Wether useing a synthetic stock or not.....................Or a muzzel brake or not...........And they make shots @ 400 yards , 1st shot , on purpose, doable......... The only time I ever missed a wolf I was shooting 400 gr bullets in my 416 Rem that I had a peep sight on.......If I had a scope and a flatter shooting load ,, that wolf would have died......It was 0ver 350 yrds away accross a slew on a mud flat.............But a Red Mister load will also ,, as I have stated previously.... really Blitz a bear.................. I as a long time Alaskan VERY FIRMLY !!!!!!!!! believe a person should not do something that causes other people to have to rescue them.....Or to solve problems they created by , ignorance ,,, arrogance ,,,,, or lacadazical stupidity.........I also feel that if we as human beings choose to cause the death of other liveing , animals ,birds and fish......That we should do it in as fast and humane a way as possible...... We should NOT use {OH I DON,T WANT TO GET KICKED } As the personal mandate for our choice for a hunting rifle ... I think it is Stupid to shoot deer with a 223 ... I think it is stupid to attempt to shoot an otter with the average 22 rf ....And I think the average hunter would be MUCK better prepared with a 35 Whelan than with 300 anything.......... If Everyone would just remember this ....Head shots on deer ,Body shots on bear. And arm themselves for near instantanious ,, Humane kills..... There would be no arguement........... Idaho Sharpshooter made a statement on the " Twisted Thread" ,,, I,m pretty sure it was him any way......If you don,t like it DON,T READ IT ............Its a free country............ how on that ..over..

Gumboot, what got you riled up is still a principle you don't seem to comprehend. "Speed kills" not only applies to the drug trade, it fits with cars and telephone poles standing still. ENERGY, BULLET COEFFIENT, and SECTIONAL DENSITY are the most important factors in any bear gun. You statement about .30 calibers is most likely just YOUR OPINION, though I'd never go after the BIG bears with a .300. Still, mountain grizzly and coastal blacks are BIG BEARS as well. An arrow is about .30 caliber and last time I looked, there were some pretty big bears listed in P&Y. I know damned well that facing a big bear, give me my .300 before you go reaching for my Matthews. IT AIN'T CALIBER. You can't paint a cathedral with one brush so stop trying to justify the insulting timbre of your remarks with that same logic.

quote:

And I think the average hunter would be MUCH better prepared with a 35 Whelen than with 300 anything

Amen to THAT! I totally agree. I differ tho on 300+ yd shots with open sights for myself, though I've shot beyond reason myself and won't anymore. My self imposed standard these days is the max range I'm confident of putting an off-hand/running 2nd shot in the vitals. I still shoot to anchor/break bone with the 1st, but like to have a good plan B, and I'm having even more fun. Even on the wide open tundra where I used to live it was not difficult to get within 100yds 90% of the time if you were patient, used the wind and cover, and hunted. 300 supermags, IMHO (and I've been given a few, 2 unfired in the safe right now) are great tools, but can encourage benchrest/range hunters who spend too much time studying ballistics tables and playing with their range finders, rather than practicing field shooting and hunting skills, to take shots they have no business attempting on a living, perhaps dangerous, game animal in the cold hard uncertain real world. Of course, my attitude doesn't move inventory or sell magazines or garner endorsement $$$ and free hunts.

And yes, I've shot at 1000m, 1500m, 2000m, etc, know and greatly enjoy what's possible under ideal conditions, and also am well aware of what's probable when they're not.

I just added up the numbers on my 8 big game rifles I hunt with (or plsn to) in AK for a total of 12 barrels, 582yrs age, and .528" average bullet diameter. Meaningless though thoses stats are, I guess that probably qualifies me for premature Curmudgeon status. Alas, the aniamls haven't changed, just our attitudes and ammo.

Bob (Curmudgeon Extrodinaire)

I the Face of a charging bear...WHO CARES what cal. you cary. I'm sure EVERYONE would just be concerned about touching the trigger in time.I know that if I were in that position,I'd be on the trigger of my trusty 06 till it was dry.Our conservation commision has recently introduced black bear here in Missouri so who knows.If they take maybe I'll get to shoot at them someday,but I doubt it.


"If winning isn't important...WHY keep score?"

I, for one, am shocked that you would admit to having missed a shot, and at only 400 yards, or 350, or whatever (tsk, tsk, tsk). Now this does not sound like the self professed “Expert of Alaskan Brown Bear Hunting†we have all come to know from your posts. Or the almighty He-man who advises us that he regularly uses a .416 and a .458 to hunt Sitka Black Tail deer. (For those of you unfamiliar with this genus, they are about the size of Great Plains Antelope, small.)

I have an idea that you tend to exaggerate, embellish, and/or perhaps even fabricate details. For all of your “experienceâ€, you only seem to quote from this article, that book, a friend who told you, or something that this person said. You have given supposed facts like “But what started my tirade was the Real ,,, it is [ right now real ] ... not virtual ,,,,,,, Not false or un true.....Occurances of bears wounded and lost by people useing .30 caliber rifles or smaller here this year and this fall where I live...... Those bears have not been accounted for........ Liveing here I know of many other bears that have been shot and lost...By the 06 with 220 gr bullets......And the other 30 calibers...... includeing the 30/30..............With lots of different loade (sic)†and “ If you arn,t wearing corks here your not going to get far for long with out twisting every joint in your body and breaking lots of the bones too. (sic)â€. These are simply not accurate statements, as you well know.

You ask 458 Win for his comments, and state “Have you guys actually read much of 458wins articles in Rifle and Handloader.. I save his articles and if I,m trying to decide if it is worth buying , that trip to town , then I check to see if he wrote an article in them.If he did I,ll buy ,If not ,mayby. I,ve been checking to see if any of yall who say i,m stupid have any volume of of data on specific instances where the little guns worked substantially better than a bow and arrow (sic).†When He advised of the .308 used as an effective round for African buffalo, all of a sudden you are much more intelligent than he is, with more experience.

Also, you advise “Brown Bear , and the hunting of them is an issue I,m fairly passionat about (sic).†Throughout your posts you speak of hunting deer, caribou, and wolf, and you tell of your acquaintances’ bear kills and those you have heard about, but what about your bear kills? How many times have you had a bear charge you? How many bears have you personally hunted and/or killed? What were the circumstances? Where? When? Rifle Used?

While I do not normally hunt bears for sport, as part of my job I have had the responsibility for hunting and either chasing off, or putting down problem animals of all types, in all types of terrain, and in different circumstances, all over the state.

I am comfortable with the weapons I use, and in my ability to use them effectively. As I previously stated, shoot what you feel comfortable with (even if you have to modify it with synthetic recoil reduction stocks and muzzle brakes to allow you to shoot it.)

It would truly be a boring world if everyone thought exactly alike.

As an addendum, common sense would tend to indicate that those persons who do not care for excessive recoil, whether real or imagined, would be better off with a smaller caliber weapon and the accompanying reduced recoil. Any person who exhibits good bullet placement with a weapon, with which they are familiar, comfortable, and competent, can outshoot another person shooting a unfamiliar, uncomfortable weapon.

A quality firearm, in a good solid caliber, with quality ammunition in the hands of someone who consistently puts the bullet where they aim is deadly, no ifs, ands, or buts about it. This is fact, not opinion. Can larger calibers accomplish the same goal, everything being equal? Of course they can, but only if the shooter does his part in this scenario.

Hunters can miss a kill shot no matter what gun they are using. Whether the cause may be improper aiming, flinching, jerking the trigger, buck fever, and on and on. A misplaced shot from any weapon, unless it strikes a vital area, will result in wounding, not killing the animal. A shot which strikes a leg is not likely to result in a kill, “red mister†or not. If the hunter does not follow up appropriately, is this the fault of the weapon or the shooter?

Your information on the U.S. Forest Service personnel is correct, but what you do not mention is that given an option, what caliber would they prefer? Mandated Calibers and weapons, and preferred calibers and weapons are not always one and the same.

HC How STUPID do you think I am ...[" AS part of my job I have had the responsibility for hunting and either chaseing off, or putting down problem animals of all types, in all types of terain,and in different circumstances, all over the state."]..................Which when translated means ...You are probably about a 5-10 year down south college edjucated government employee .who ,,,,,Now I,m just guessing here but I kind of think you are working in conjunction with the enforcement devision of some bunch of over paid chair warming UGE......Mayby ADF&G or USF&W mayby even HPD .. who knows ???Why don,t you tell us........If you read my posts... you know where I live......Show up ....Most people in town know who Gumboot is ... Knock on my door ....lets go hunting.........In point of fact Those statements are all true ............Do you know where west port is.......Not washington either.... How about Ocean Boulavard....8Fathom Camp......... How many people do you know in Sitka........How bout POW........Ever worked in Two Moon Bay... How about the Mulchatna ......Or the Tanana area... Ive lived and worked in All these places and a whole lot more........ And if you want to follow me around in the brush with out corks on ,, I,ll be falling timber along the side of taku inlet this spring so ...........................No doubt I like to give people someones highly valued opinion.....Thats why I give them mine!!!!! But I do back up what I say with actual occurances of my own ....And with my knuckles if someone is stupid enough to call me a liar with in reach.................What is your name HC..... Your probably some 26 year old punk........Really you should show up .....I,ll give you an edjucation from an Alaskan who hasn,t been South in over 2 decades....................................I sure don,t mind people disagreeing with me LOTS of times It,s refreshingly fun........And I almost always learn something from it.....But calling me a liar .,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,.You Really need to retract that statement ... And appoligize ,,, OR showup!!!! Oh and 458 Win didn,t say the 308 works on Cape Buffalo ,Saeed did and I have no doubt he can back up everything he said....... since he makes bullets for the guy.... My back is feeling better all the time ..You should show up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You can't be serious.......calling a fellow member out to a fist fight, what is this, high school??? You said you haven't been south in over 2 decades........maybe you should think about going south and getting caught up with the times, while your at it try growing up a little too.

Gumboot,
I think you answered your own question in your first sentance of your last post- "How stupid do you think I am?" -

Name calling and asking to fight are a bit immature coming from someone of your self proclaimed life experience. Come on now and listen before you attempt to type.

This internet chat room stuff is not all that serious.

Gumboot,
I looked on the Graemlins for a picture of someone with a shovel digging himself a hole to fall into, and couldn't find one, but you know what I mean. It's easier to see, when you are not the one with the shovel in hand. That picture of the penguins where one pushes the other into the ice water also comes to mind. Just refuse to let others provoke you. (easier said than done - from experience.)

Besides, you can dish it out pretty good, but can you take it?

There is a time to STFU, and just state your opinion about guns, rifles, cartridges, and their performance. Let's just assume and accept that none of us are qualified to state opinions about others who post here, although sometimes the temptation is just too much, especially when they are precieved to have started it, or deserve it, in our opinion. In almost every case though, it's a mistake to do so.

You don't need to prove anything, especially with specifics about your experiences.

Let's keep this fun. Show us how humble you really are by appologising to the guy for inviting him to an ass whooping. Go ahead - say your sorry. Besides, you'll probably just wrench you back again, and miss out on whatever is left of the deer season, and you'll be laying on the couch, saying to your wife "honey put another log on the fire - please".

Your Bud,
KB

I KNOW that was a redundant question Gumboot began that thread with. Had to be. Now this is the guy I want to pay to dispose of problem animals. From quarter mile away he takes a poke at an animal that weighs nearly a ton and wants to give US lessons on what firearm to use. I keep saying, "Natural selection ain't working."

We're getting testy fellas.The old caliber vs game debate has been going on for a long time and is certainly in no danger of subsiding.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
Gumboot,
I looked on the Gremlins for a picture of someone with a shovel digging himself a hole to fall into, and couldn't find one.
KB

KB,
This what you were looking for?


Stuntpilot

--- Goin' way back to GumShoe458's orig. missive ; --- I've got to agree with him .

Show up with a .375 or .416 , -- MINIMUM . -- ( always taking great note that you must be able to group rapidly , -- or don't even try it ) .

I'm strictly an arm-chair student of all this Bear-Stopping business , -- so far . --- But some stuff is clear .

The conclusions of generations of African Dangerous Game Hunters , must be considered seriously , -- if you're going to step out there .

The Grizzly types of animals are world-famous for taking massive amounts of stopping , -- once adrenaline is on-board .

A Central Nervous system hit is very difficult for , ANYONE , -- ( regardless of skill level ) , -- to achieve ; -- on an incoming Bruin , -- closing at 37 ft. per Second ! -- --- especially if you detect the animal when it's 30 yds. away , -- which ain't unheard of .

The obvious and profound wisdom that applies , -- is Ruark's -- " Use enough Gun " . --- It's simply a matter of life and death .

Forget all of the above , -- if you've got a seasoned back-up Man , -- AND as Dirty Harry counseled ; --- you're feeling Lucky .

------ JMHO , --- MMCOUGAR .

[QUOTE].... an incoming Bruin , -- closing at 37 ft. per Second !... [QUOTE]

37fps..that means I can chop 1.5" off d .416 tube to make it more handy and not lose any impact velocity cause the beast is making up for anything Ive lost.

I stand corrected; I did misquote 458 Win, although he did also share his opinion on the topic. My sincere apologies to you, Saeed, and to 458 Win for my error and the misquote.

However, Gumboot, I do not believe I have ever called you stupid. I did say that you make some silly comments. I even agree, at least in part, with portions of your posts. Such as a hunter being better equipped with a .35 Whelen than a .300. But, as much as I dislike the .300 Win Mag, I still shoot .30 caliber rifles. Additionally, I don’t state that anyone who disagrees and uses the .300 Win Mag caliber class of weapon less of a man simply because of this. That would be, and is a silly comment.

You are entitled to your opinion, though your opinion is not shared by everyone, and they are just as entitled to their own particular opinion, just as you are entitled to yours. To become irate when someone doesn’t march step and follow your opinion, accepting what you state as fact, and questions the validity of the facts you are using is absurd.

I don’t believe my post needs translation; I do work for the government, on the law enforcement side. Thus I have access to some the information that you are misquoting. Yes, I know where West Port is, and 8 Fathom also. Yes I know people in Sitka and on Prince of Wales Island. No, I have not worked at Two Moon Bay or Mulchatna. Although I fail to see what importance this has in relation to the topic.

As far as calling you a liar, I believe I stated that you tend exaggerate, embellish, and “perhaps†fabricate details. A case in point, as I previously pointed out, you state “ If you arn,t wearing corks here your not going to get far for long with out twisting every joint in your body and breaking lots of the bones too. (sic)â€. Now I know a few people who wear corks while hunting, but the majority of hunters, including myself, do not. I know of no circumstances where not wearing corks has resulted in every joint in a body being twisted, and/or even one bone being broken, let alone “lots†of them. Thus, this statement is not supported by reality. Your statements inferring that 1911 pistols are unreliable, and that is the reason that the FBI using 40 S&W, also are also off the mark by a mile.

I could continue, but you are apparently agitated by having someone point out obvious flaws in your theories. If you take exception to this, I really don’t know what to tell you.

However, since you feel strongly that I should retract the statement, or apologize for pointing out flawed information and skewed facts in your posts. To keep the peace in our chat room, allow me to apologize.

That is a Great picture ...All he needs is a snorlel and a tall exaust ..He didn,t bring any matts to walk on ....Or if he did he didn,t bring enough........O K so say HC has killed a bunch of bear.s.....And say he was getting paid while he was doing it .....IE ,as a government employee..He would have plenty of time to pick and choose when he was going to deal with the problem... Most urban problem bears that get shot , get shot because they don,t run off .. They may bluff charge or run at a person ... But in my experience they just want to take what they want.......It gives a shooter lots of time to stroll on up and pick his shot. ,.,., An X bullet from a 243 would have adequet penetration to kill most any problem bear .......Under those cicumstances.........There are an aweful lot of other circumstances that bears are encountered under..........Forest Service Senior policy makeing personell a long time ago very wisely decided what works and what their employees would carry .... .. I,m very glad they did...... Something Timber Beasts know that perhaps many other people don,t is ,,, Knuckle sandwiches , there not just for breakfast anymore.........No I,m just kidding........Not.....This is alot of fun....... George would you PLEASE show me where I advocated shooting long range at an unwounded bear........But a quarter mile shot on a deer ..Not with a 458 , for me any way ,but with a 416 with the right bullet and the right load......Once a person has gained the skill with their particular rifle Noprob.......The cartridge has no problem doing it ......Neither does the 375 or 338. Why do people insist on useing such little toy guns.... Girl,s guns ... Even Angelina Jolle knows what a girls gun is.......

Sorry This thing is real slow tonight .. Ya no problem I was just jokeing about the nukle sandwich thing.........In fact people disagree with me every day , just ask my wife.......The 1911 s are in no way the wonderful gun everyone thinks they are... They tend to be finiky and jam fairly frequently.......And I have seen that with my own 4 eyes... I have NEVER had a Glock jam ... Or a S&W M&P and only one load in the s&w Sigma would make it hang up rarly......When I was in the milatary we used the 1911..... They were unreliable then and from what I have seen they tend to still be so.......I think one of the reasons the FBI doesn,t use them is the high occurance of accidental discharges........The # 1 cause of injuries in the woods ... By Anyone who may be injured while in the forests of coastal Alaska is falling down ........People fall down in the woods 50 % more frequently with out corks on ... perhaps more.......It is a much bigger problem than people realize , But if someone wants to fall down that is their bussiness......Of all the people I have encouraged to wear sticky boots every one of them has enthuastically commented how { they don,t fall down anymore ,or , they had much better control while walking in the woods.}And no they wern,t clutzes.......And yes ABsoolutely what ever rifle or weapon ,[I hate that word] a person uses , as I stated in the inital post ...a hunter had better be real good friends with it..... However there is a big difference between a 4" diameter 3' long hole thru an animal wound chanel and a 1 1/2" diameter 20 " long wound... But since so many people miss and wound so many animals,with their smaller calibers and since it isn,t at all hard to learn the shoot a 375 H&H........ I just can,t see what the arguement is .... Yes its a free country... You can use what you want Unfortunatly.... Certain nations in Africa have laws that mandate certain caliber weapons for heavy and dangerous game........ I wish Alaska did .......The same rounds 9.3x62 Mauser or 375 H&H min.... In My Humble , Appoligizing for getting upset ,Opinion........gb o.

You can lead a horse to water.........

I am impressed too.
KB

quote:

Originally posted by gumboot458:
It means [Down South ,you can figure out the mf part] Its what we call seasonal workers who come up here ,take our jobs then act all manly even tho they winter in florida or oregon. They deplete Alaska and some of us red necks wish they would stay [Down South] BUT , its a free country.. as long as you have enough money .. HAA EHH. The 30 caliber thing tho , Its like someone running their gob about how great a 1911 is ,and after they spend 2 grand on one it stove pipes every 10th shot or less. neither are reliable . If they were, Jeff Cooper wouldn,t use a 460 G&A to hunt Cape Buffalo. And the FBI wouldn,t use 40 s&w,s .gb out

Oooooooo, ooooooo, my turn, my turn!

Now you have treaded on a field that I can educate you on. The 1911 has proven itself to be the most reliable pistol in battle for atleast 3 major wars, not including smaller scirmishes. There has yet to be a pistol that has proven itself that much and until there is, the jury's verdict still stands. The FBI actually still uses the springfield armory 1911 as well as the united states special forces. The only reason the FBI started the .40cal was because women (and some smaller handed men) were complaining about the 10mms and .45s recoil. The 10mms were also seen as hellions on internal gun parts and over penetration liabilities (accidental civilian shootings.) If it hadnt been for the physically smaller agents, the bureau would still be using the 1911 or a variant of the sort.

Of course what do I know? Im only a certified law enforcement firearm instructor.

Geez gumboat, you're on a roll with this one. If there ever was a bigger piece of shit than the best Glock ever made, it would have to be the Edsel or the Henry J. The 1911 is a time honored piece that only fails in the hands of nitwits. Ask Jeff Cooper. (Don't EVEN try that silly assed comparison of the .45 self defense firearm with the .460 HUNTING FIREARM) If it wasn't the finest semiautomatic handgun in the world, it wouldn't be used in so many matches and wouldn't be immitated so much. When your POS Glock has made it to 100 years old, then you can talk. As for the 10mm, I'd take my Sig-Saur .357 any day of any week against it (and all I need to do is buy an extra barrel and I can shoot it in the same gun).

Come on guys. I can't believe you all are still arguing about this. Everyone knows that the 460 Weatherby mag is the sensible minimum for brown bear!

quote:

Ask Jeff Cooper...

George, Unfortunately that's going to be difficult: http://www.postgazette.com/pg/06275/726705-122.stm

Regards, Bill

Thank you Bill. I was not aware the old Jarhead had passed. I didn't always agree with him, but he was from an era I could only read about. I do some freelance work and I try to keep up with those things and I'm a bit shocked I hadn't heard about it.

*** DAMN , I LOVE THIS THREAD ***

Got in on this Thread late -- So I don't want want to hear about beating a dead horse .

Yeah it's kind of nutty , in places , -- but that's O.K. , -- makes good reading on a cold night .

Old Gumboot is , for sure opinionated and sometimes 180 off from my own convictions , -- but , clearly , has some in-depth understanding and experiential knowledge , -- beyond many an Outdoorsman .

I don't agree , at all , about using 300 Gr. bullets in Big-bore Brownie artillery ; -- rather I subscribe to Old Elmer's rule of thumb for expanding bullets , -- I.E. go for SD of .270 or greater for big and/or Dangerous game . -- And , of course , Premium bullet construction and design is all the better , if superimposed on that goodly SD .

None the less , -- got to side , again with Gumboot on the Legendary 1911 . -- It's only Legendary because state-of-the-art engineers , have tweeked , re-configured , tortured , messed-with , -- and otherwise turned a Sow's Ear into a reasonably reliable weapon .

Off the line , in WWII , it was a disaster , whose only claim to fame was the unique attribute that it ws , after all , -- " SEMI-AUTOMATIC " -- and the tollerances were backed-off to where it MIGHT function in the mud !! --- 'Nuff said .

------------ MMCOUGAR .

MM ,Thank you.. Super premium light for caliber FAST bullets penetrate pretty well.....Mr Keith didn,t have X bullets to work with .... And I kind of think he advocated what he knew . Which was , a heavy for caliber bullet. I said they work. They do , I,ve used them.. But have you ever seen the size and depth of the wound a fast over 40 cal X bullet makes.. The recoil is less and the trajectory is flater..........If I were much more of a machineist than I am ...I would make up a bunch of L F C flat nose sloids to see how they penetrated at close range and High speed.....I,ve contemplated bringing the subject up on the Big Bore forum or the African forum....But I need to be well rested to approach those guys........Probably need a quicker twist <>??????Well I feel a rant comin on so I better zip this thing off ... Gumboot out..

For Ya'lls Info,
Gumboot just acquired a SS Ruger 308 Win (girly) bear gun.


KB

*** REPLY TO GUMBOOT ***

RE : -- The X-Bullets , -- This Poor inexperienced Child denies no facts ; -- performance is performance , -- wound channels is wound channels , -- comparative ballistics , is comparative ballistics .

Having said that , -- Elmer's S.D criteria is still good as gold as a comparative number, ---- IF YOU HOLD ALL , ( THAT IS , ALL ! ) OTHER FACTORS OF BULLET DESIGN , -- AND IMPACT VELOCITIES / SPIN , -- CONSTANT !

Even with Partitioned bullets , -- the more that is left behind to keep pushing when max. mushrooming has occured , -- the more Elmer's principle is workin' for ya . ( Elmer was a Genius ) .

Trouble with all-copper bullets is , if you're trying to hunt big tough animals , -- and want heavy-for-caliber bullets at maximum velocities / energies ; -- those copper puppies extend down too far into the case and start reducing powder space too much . --- Cutting back on your power .

Forget the above , if you're using strictly Factory rounds . -- Factories have access to special powders , and can have it both ways .

But my ideal , -- especially for Dangerous Game , -- is to be able to take the animal from any angle , ( sometimes not possible ) , and make an exit wound . -- Especially important on the subject Charging-Browns , -- where you're trying to go center-of-mass , and pick up a pelvic girdle in the rear quarters .

I think the state of the art , now , is swinging back to all copper , up front , --- and lead or tungsten , (?) , something heavier than copper in the rear ; --- for just that reason , -- i.e. , more powder space for magnums .

------------ Nose To The Trail , -- Best Regards , ------ MMCOUGAR .

MM The 350 gr X bullet is kind of a do it all projectile from any 40 cal. on up at 2450 fps muz vel. or more and they keep the midrange trajectory down some..... You can heart shoot bears from behind with it also............. Hey KB. I,m getting the angle grinder out ... Did you know that a Skill worm drive 7 1/4" saw with a 24 tooth Marathon frameing carbide blade works pretty good at cutting off barrels...... You need to ease it into the cut .. But they work well on Ruger barrels..... And if you chuck a RCBS chamfering tool up in a cordless DeWalt screw gun it works pretty good for crowning barrels.... But it makes a mess if its on hammer mode.......!I think the brown barbeque paint looks better than the black......

Somebody call an English teacher!!!

There sure seems to be a lot of posts at this site concerning the big bears of Alaska and what caliber rifle to use on them. The responces are quite collorfull to say the least.

As I have never even been to Alaska or hunted any bear, I can only add what I consider to be a interesting observation.

A few years ago I was at the SCI convention held in Las Vagas. Durring the three days I spent walking through the massive halls that held all the venders selling hunts I must have watched wll over 100 different brown and grizzly bears being shot, as well as a few polar bears. Of all the bears I saw shot only one was litterally stoped in its tracks while running off after the cliant shot it. I wathched the video with the actual guide who was guiding the hunter. I asked the guide what had happened. He told me that the cliant using a .338 wm with 250grn A-Frames had made a perfect shoulder/double lung shot on the bore at a range of about 50 yards, the instant the bore swaped ends and started to run off, the guide shot the bore and it stoped like it had litterally run into a concrete wall.I mean it went down with such force that it seamed a giant invisable hammer had smashed it to the ground. As I wathched this all play out on the video I asked the guide, "what the h*ll did you hit him with? he remarked a .460 Weatherby magnum no less. I asked him why the elaphant gun for bear, he replied he was sick and tired of fallowing big, mean and pissed off bears into the thick stuff to find and or finish them off. He said he out guiding over 20yrs ago with a .375, then over the years moved up to a .416, and figured if he was going to go any bigger he might as well go as big as it gets in production rifles, so he bought the .460 weatherby. The bore I watched him finish off was a coastal brown that the guide told me lator squared 9.5 feet. He told me since going to the .460 Weatherby he had not had to track any bear again that he shot with it after the cliant shot it first. I asked him what if a cliant dose not want you to shoot his bear unless nessasary, he replied its always nessasary.

I do not know my a** from apple butter when it comes to hunting bears so I sure was not going to disagree with him.

Thank you ART .... I,ve been trying to figure out what I relly wanted to do with my CZ 550 in the Lott round.....................All this yakin about beltless rounds ..........I like the 460 ... I better do it ............I wonder if Gerard at GS custom would make up a mono metal sptzer boatail 350 gr . 458 bullet.....It would do 3000fps ....May not be a 12 ga. FH but YE HAW!!!

quote:

The 1911 s are in no way the wonderful gun everyone thinks they are... They tend to be finiky and jam fairly frequently.......And I have seen that with my own 4 eyes... I have NEVER had a Glock jam

You are talking out of your ass on that one.

MG

I,m going to do a music video someday . It will be called the Jam ..It will feature every 1911 that I can borrow......I probably won,t have to use very many to get enough footage for a 10 min. They are grossly over priced and generaly un reliable ....How many grand have you dumped into one ??

gumboot458--you have heart(chuckle) that is for sure. I have enjoyed reading most of your posts and have really laughed how you have stirred the pot. Your taking it right on the chin-hang in there.