quote:

I like bigbores but I dont use bears as a reason to get one.

I don't know, I've been thinking about a .50 BMG, bet it would DRT a bear....

I obviously look at bears differently than some. I do not see the need for a shoulder cannon just because your hunting brown bears. I too know several brown bear guides and the aforementioned back up gun is generally needed because they are used to backing up completely inexperienced bear hunters that panic under pressure and dont place KILLING shots, I repeat shots to the essential vitals that keep the animal alive. Yes bears run after being shot, I have seen that many times, but if the first shot destroys vitals the bear will usually die fairly soon. Rapid and fairly accurate follow up shot speeds the process even faster. The bears that take off running and hide in ambush for the tracking hunters hours later are generally bears that have been hit poorly and follow up shots are not made. Bullet selection is essential and most importantly is your marksmanship. From talking to the guides I know the above is generally the problem, even with large bore rifles, the clients sometimes just cant shoot for shitt! You cant go after a predator species such as the brown bear and subsitute horespower for good shooting skills which is what many people do. 10 ft browns have been killed just as much with .30 cals as they have with 375's and 416's and every other popular large bore out there. Its a fact of science that an animal with exploded lungs or a damaged heart can only live so long. Now a bear with a damaged Liver or shot in the gut will stay alive for sometime and is going to be downright pissed when you show up in the alders looking for him, thats a fact. So preach what you will but I will continue under the belief that shooting what feels right and works well will continue to kill as it always has. If you are hunting in dense brown bear country by yourself then yes you might want to carry the largest caliber rifle that you shoot WELL, but when hunting with a friend or two and you all have rifles in the 30 cal range or bigger such as the popular 338WM these monster cannons are simply just not needed. If you choose to use one thats fine and no one says you cant, but to tell folks that they must or need to use a large bore is just plain bullshitt. I hunt griz with a bow so you might understand where mny confidence in killing bears comes from so if an 8 1/2 ft grizz dies in less than 50 yards from a properly placed 125 grain broadhead I have proven to myself what it takes to kill bears. Give advice and share experiences but dont feed people full of bullshitt on what they need to use or must use, thats misguided and inexperienced advice!

lets compare apple to apples here, a bow kills by hemorage, that is a lot of surface area cutting into the vitals and releasing a lot of blood, a bullet kills differenlty. Arrows are incredably leathal.

I agree a 300 mag with agood bullet is enoughf or brown bear, my all around moose rifle is a 300 wm. I think the 30 cals can definately get the job done but would feel more comfortable with something bigger. Shot placement is #1 priority regardless of caliber.

Thebear, are you saying that a bullet does not kill by hemorrage? I have killed bears with a rifle that when rolled over to inspect the entrance and exit holes found pools of blood inside the chest cavity. A bullet not only kills by hemorrage but its also destroys organs and skeletal structure. IMO the only advantage the arrow gives you is the lack of adrenaline surge associated with the shock of energy a bear feels and hears when hit by a bullet.Otherwise its apples and pumpkins in the killing department.

Just in case anyone may have misinterpreted my previous statement about the .50 BMG, that was a little bit of humor

an arrow kills by surface area and section density, leading to great penetration. a bullet on the other hand requires lots of kenetic energy to create hydrostatic shock to do all the damage, they both hemorage but its a little different in how it gets there.

I always hear people say "if you can kill them with a bow you can kill them with any gun" but that isn't always true.

I also agree on the rush of adrenaline concept. For example a small rifle 223 or 22-250 shooting a 55gr bullet has a lot more energy than any arrow, but the arrow will be far more dependable in dispatching the bear.

quote:

Originally posted by Joel/AK:
I'm just amazed that through genetics (has to be the answer) that nowadays we need a bigbore to kill a bear. Yes the larger calibers are great and will definitly drop a bear but come on, no way in hell I'm gonna carry a 10lb + rifle for a 1 in 1000 chance of being charged. I've been charged once and with all my time in the field, its not worth (going on percentage) my time in carrying a heavy gun. I'll stick with the 30's-35's, you paranoid folks can carry the artillary. I like bigbores but I dont use bears as a reason to get one. You folks should write for the gunrags when it comes to bigbores.

I will pass on to my buddy up north (chicken area) that hes all wrong. hes been using a 44/40 (and a few smaller) for critters. after 40 years he might welcome the info knowing hes wrong and in danger.

Yea - genetics must be, but I never thought of it that way. I just always thought it was because we could, and perhaps use living in Alaska as an excuse to go extreme. Why not? It’s great to live in a place in the world where we can really use the big bore stuff, and have fun with it, and in some cases it’s actually practical.

I've been down south recently, and I go mostly every fall. It's interesting to me at least, of how boring the rifles have become that they use there to hunt their hogs and deer. I remember years ago how interesting they all were, and I still shoot rifles from 6.5mm to 375. Today, the hunting down south is still fun, but the rifles are just tools. In Alaska, I still find excitement from the rifles and the hunt. For me, Alaska rifles are still more than just tools.

Like your buddy in Chicken, last year I met a native fellow, as we were hunting the same area. He was carrying the ugliest 30 cal carbine I have ever seen. That day I was carrying my newly built 9.3x62 FN Mauser with a marbled McMillan stock. After he helped me drag a nice buck back to the road, (I got there first, and got lucky) I asked him about the rifle. He said he had been using it many years, and always head shot his deer. The rifle was his father’s rifle.

He didn't ask me about my rifle.

Although the obvious was apparent to me, surely there were two parallel but different realities going on there. I just didn't want to spoil the moment, by offering my useless opinion. Instead, I gave him half of the deer. It was a stinky old buck in rut anyway.

Incidentally, the place where we were hunting had super highway bear trails running all through it. I was nervous, and he was a hunter.

When I was a Boy in Georgia, we used to hunt rabbits all fall and winter. There was a black family living on the farm. Often I would run into the oldest boy, named Willy Mac - his black friends and family called him Ned. Anyway, Williy always got several rabbits, and was equally effective on the gray squirrel. One day I took some time to see how he was doing it. He used a single shot 22 rifle, and he bedded the rabbits, and shot them in the head, before they flushed. He looked for the eye. He teased me by saying he always waited until they blinked, before shooting. He was the first real hunter I met.

Next I asked his mother how she cooked the rabbits. Fry, then slow cook with gravy, covered. Same with the squirrels.

KB

Good points, Gumboot. And some strong conclusions to be drawn:

1. 30-caliber rifles were designed to wound small men. They do that well and are also adequate for hunting whitetail deer.

2. A brown bear may not be comparable to an elephant, but it's pretty comparable to a large African lion.

3. Elmer Keith was smarter than Jack O'Connor in Alaska and everywhere else.

My original post was refering to Southeast Alaska brown bear hunting . Due to the denseness of the{ jungle }is the best term to discribe the forests here when taken on the whole.The forest and brusk in the interior and the Kodiak ,Afognak Is. is not in the same class of brushy mess as here. Joel,s {field} experience is probably just that . Field not brush patch or forest. And for anyone to call into question 458Win,s magizine articles . I hope I don,t read any more of that foolishness!!! Were I to hunt mostly open country I would use a 338 RUM and a 358 Norma and STA .. Because all 3 are wonderful rounds and very decisive , and flat shooting . For just rambleing around looking at stuff I would use my 9.3x62 . For some reason some people think a larger caliber has to be less accurate or easy to shoot well . Yesterday I shot 2 deer in the head with my 416 one was around 75 yrds one was about 100 yrds . The guy I was with missed a great big ,he said 6 point with his 06. He is a good hunter and has shot 5 deer this year alone with the same rifle , so he can shoot just fine. That deer was 50 yrds away . That tells me that anyone can miss and often do as I did also yesterday . However I didn,t miss because I was shooting a Red Mister and he didn,t hit because he shot an 06. When each of us missed the deer we shot at, it was because we didn,t put the shot together and execute it properly. caliber of rifle shot had nothing to do with it., Yes my 416 X bullet at around 2750 fps strikeing velocity made a pretty big wound area. But Ive done more damage with a 308 win. And I,ve seen 7 mags and 300 mags. do way worse.Excitement leads to poor shooting . Big brown bears at close range lead to EXITEMENT, Hence the problem with 30 caliber rifles for brown bear at close range in dense cover. Shot placement is critical.As I said in my first post here, you should be good buddies with the rifle you bring bear hunting.. And then don,t flub the shot. But if you flub a shot by a small amount with a 06 you are in much worse shape than if you flubbed the shot with a hot fast Skookum 375-458 . If any one did a survey of how many clients flub shots . ? The stats on the most popular big game cartridges in Alaska is just that , . For all big game hunting. I restricted my comments to brown bear and S E , or coastal Alaska. .. Well have fun.. gumboot out.

I've never hunted in Africa but I think I'm safe in using the following as an example.

I have no doubt that the lion has never lived that can't be killed with a 30/06 class of rifle.But I also have no doubt that a man who entered tall grass after a wounded lion with that class of rifle would be foolish indeed.

It would be hard to find a man who had more African hunting experience than John Taylor and he had a profound admiration for the 416 rigby for taking lions.

Red Misty DRT Brown Bear Rifles?

At the local grocery store, I just talked with the Master Guide, which I wrote of earlier. I started a conversation about his season, and gleaned a little info. I asked if he had to make any follow up shots this past season. He said he didn't. I think his clients took 7 bear spring and fall.

He said that his clients this past year mostly used 338s and 375s. He mentioned that he was impressed with the results of the 338, and he seemed to shrug off the 375, as though it worked well as expected. He also said that it seemed odd to him that they all used the Barnes TSX bullets. He mentioned three times in our conversation that the TSX bullets worked well - I can't remember his exact words - only that he mentioned them favorably three times, and we spoke for only about five minutes. I asked what bullet weight? - but he apparently didn't know and avoided the question.

About a year ago, he bought a CZ in 9.3x62, and almost every conversation we have had about guns or hunting since then, he has mentioned how much he likes that rifle and caliber. This guy has lots of guns, so saying that he likes the 9.3x62 means something.

Anyway, I thought I would pass that along - for grins or chagrins – whichever.
KB

quote:

Originally posted by ray m:
I've never hunted in Africa but I think I'm safe in using the following as an example.

I have no doubt that the lion has never lived that can't be killed with a 30/06 class of rifle.But I also have no doubt that a man who entered tall grass after a wounded lion with that class of rifle would be foolish indeed.

It would be hard to find a man who had more African hunting experience than John Taylor and he had a profound admiration for the 416 rigby for taking lions.

I may be mistaken, and Im sure someone will correctme if I am, One of J.Taylors Favourite rifles for Lion was a singleshot.350Rigby.
I Like very much the idea:9.3x74R SxS.

Woodjack,

My point was not a "this caliber vs that one".In his book "African rifles and cartridges",the reader is left with no doubt about Taylor's impression of the 416 Rigby on lion.

Neither was mine Ray,just telling what I have read.
Deep down inside Id like to use a MuzzlebrakedBarAuto458Lott for Jackrabbits to Jumbo,If I could be confident it would not jam,plus an Mp3 with Stepin Wolfs'"Born To be Wild" or Mozarts"Classic Concerto" playing in my ears, depending what mood im in.
WJ.

Calibers aside if you have a rifle that you shoot a lot and always hits what your aiming at your far better off than with the most powerful stopper on earth that you shoot occaisonlly because it's such a overwhelming piece of equiptment to deal with. Rifles stop being fun to shoot for me when they need more than 75grs of gunpowder.

Just as a matter of discussion here... but I know that there are several 416 Taylors running around S.E. Alaska. Could be for good reason.

I know mine drops things 'right now' not 50 yards from now. What's not to like?

gumboot458, it sounds to me like you have never hunted Kodiak. I've hunted there several times and the brush on that island is the worst I have ever seen. I've never been to SE Alaska so I can't say how the terrain is down there but there's no way it can be any worse than Kodiak.

quote:

gumboot458, it sounds to me like you have never hunted Kodiak. I've hunted there several times and the brush on that island is the worst I have ever seen. I've never been to SE Alaska so I can't say how the terrain is down there but there's no way it can be any worse than Kodiak.

I wouldn't say that... As much as Gumboot458 makes some silly comments, the fact is that the rainforest of S. E. Alaska is a very dense mixture of brush, marshland, deadfalls, old growth, and new growth.

In places, it is as brushy as the peninsula area, with visability reduced to the immediate vicinity. In these areas, the Marlin Guide Gun is the best option, of maneuverability and firepower, simply due to the limitations of mobility.

I have not been to Kodiak, but have lived in the Aleutians where the brush is very dense, and having been in both, I would have to give the edge to the S.E. rainforest for difficulties associated with terrain, forest growth, and lesser vegetation.

I,ve live and worked on both Kodiak and Afognak Islands.Compared to here the brush is nice ,open, easy to get around in brush. I would say that the alder filled avalanche slide areas were the same but I can walk all over Arognak and Kodiak with just rubber soled shoes. If you arn,t wearing corks here your not going to get far for long with out twisting every joint in your body and breaking lots of the bones too. once you get the hang of it you can go up most of the main game trails ok but when the ground freezes or its been raining , { This is a Rain Forest }.Comeing down will give you some real good high speed bursts.. With cork boots you gain 50 % better control. Haveing better control makes you about the same amount quieter in the brush. And it allows you to spend more time looking and less time hopeing you have a soft place to land. And just forget about walking thru a thinning unit.. But bears do run thru them at speeds up to 30 mph. How they can do it I have no idea. But how they can RUN straight vertically out of a rock pit I don,t know either , but I,ve watched them do it . Until you go strolling around on a place like Dall Is. [ i jokes , you have to climb around Dall Is. ]You can,t appreciate nice firm ground under your feet.. I,ve wandered around on Montegue Is. also and the 2 don,t compare . Dall is just about deadly to try to get around on. There is plenty of brush up north also but the fact that it can pretty much easily be walked thru makes things easier. .The 338RUM I was playing with last year was great fun to shoot and it was burning 94 gr of powder with a 275 gr bullet. With the 25 gr heavier bullet , a pound more rifle weight and a cob my current 416 REM is quite nice. Much more simular to a 338 / 200 gr. /2900 fps load than a 500 gr 458 Lott @ 2300 fps. Which is entirely manageable but tireing after a box of shells. The 458 lott with a 350 gr x moly/@ 2750 fps is much more mild than the 500 gr bullet. And this gentle push stuff is not my reality, not with my neck. A 500 gr bullet kicks the hell out of ya. which is where This Thread started ..other than shooting a wounded bear on the other side of a blow down or root wad I see NO reason to load a heavy bullet in a large bore rifle for shooting brown bear. Yes I keep about 3 solids with me if I,m hunting BBB . But other wise , 300 - 350 gr bullets make them an Alaskan rifle that If I go to Africa I,m gonna blitz ol Syncerus Caffer with. just to see how it works. I,ve never seen Cape Buffalo bones . But brown bear bones are so hard and thick and dense that my dog can,t hardly scratch one and he can eat a cows leg bone in about 1 hour. Mayby if 458 win could interject his experience, as I understand he has shot Cape Buffalo with the 416 Rem 325 gr Xbullet.. And yes I would like anouther 416 Taylor. But I like the Rem better by just a small margin and I relly want to make up a 411 KDF on a stainless Ruger. That way I could shoot 41 mag jacketed pistol bullets for blastin. It would be fun and cheap. With out the leading problems associated with cast bullets at high velocity.. A 210 gr bullet ought to do around 3100 fps muz.. Could probably hear it bust thru the air.. According to J.H. Taylor { PONDORO} He used the 350 Rigby and the 577/ 450 Martini to shoot lions when he was young ,but declared that the 416 Rigby { crumples a gharging lion in the most satisfying way. }He indicated the 425 Westly Richards did also. and He wished for a lighter bullet than the 410 gr weight . He tried out the 404 jeffries with the 300 gr bullet at around 2600 fps but was dissatisfied because the bullets broke up and were Very un reliable. Not a good thing with dangerous game , un reliability.. Well good day .. gumboot out.

There is certainly room for differing opinions as no two hunts are ever the same. I have killed a lot of really big bears (some three times the weight of African lions) and so had the late Andy Runyon. We both understood the need for the bigger bores in thick brush when stopping large bears but Andy was convinced that light for caliber bullets with more velocity killed them quicker ( Andy also liked the ability to reach out once in a while) while I am just as certain that the heavier slugs put them on the ground faster. I have no problem using a 9.3 or 375 when backing up clients and have also killed wounded bears with a 416 but I remain convinced that the 458 with 450 and 500 grain bullets puts them down with visibly more authority and much prefer it when following wounded bears.
Everyone is free to pick their own poison.

I lived and hunted on Kodiak for 6 years, and then moved to S.E. Alaska for the last 8 years. S.E. Alaska flora is much thicker, and runs higher up in elevation than Kodiak.

There are no miles of grass covered hills in S.E. Alaska as there are on Kodiak. Even Afognak doesn't compare.

I love both places, they are simply different.

For some reason I feel compelled to respond as I am contemplating a "Big-Bore". I have hunted Kodiak 4 times. Once for goats, once for deer, and twice for bears. My guide and I were charged by a sow and cub to within 25 yds. while deer hunting. Granted it was wide open terrain but I remember feeling extremely undergunned with my 300 Wby. Mag stoked with 180 gr. NP. Guide carried .416 Rem. Mag. He fired a warning shot @ about 60 yds. and it never fazed her. the only thing it did was deplete his fire power by one round.
On a nother trip with the same guide I eventually killed my bear with a .358 Norma Magnum. 250 gr. Northfork @ 2700 fps. Entrance at the point of the shoulder base of the neck and slug recovered under hide forward of the left rear hind leg. This is after being directly heart shot.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Dr B:

quote:

Going back to the 30 caliber. I have a friend in Tanzania who kills all his buffalo with a 308 Winchester, using ammo I load for him.

Saeed
What bullet do you load for him?

I have a favorite Rem 600 is 308 win that I have been considering for a Brown Bear Huntprobly with 180gr TSX what do you think about this combo?
Thanks
DR B

Solids from around 164 to 180. Some are FMJ bullets and some we make ourselves on a CNC lathe.

I asked him if he had noticed any differences, he says no, they kill equally well.

I would use my 7mm08 cause I'm no scardy cat and very confident.

A man who can stalk and shoot should have no trouble with brown bears when using a 308 with 180 gr TSX bullets.

Doubtless you are right .. I ,de like to see the video ...... make it a challenge use a single shot........... No helping out by the guide either...................Heck my wife has a 308.. This spring well go shoot a bear with it just to see what happens.......I,ll make sure the camera is rolling..........Then for the hard part.....,,figureing how to put a steaming video on the site. gumboot out.

RE 30 cal for bear.. About 20 years ago, when I still lived in AK, there were some statistics floating around from the Fish and Game about the guns hunters had used on brown bears and the effectiveness of different calibers on bear hunts. I believe the 300 mag (probably with 180 gr bullets) was number one the list.
I would think this involves the balance between portability, shootability and killing power. Bears can be big, but a well placed bullet is still required to sort things out. Realistically, many hunters do not shoot big guns very well. My two bear hunts involved lots of walking in the mountains, not cruising around in fishing boats.

I know it may not be true for anyone else who has big guns and posts on this forum, but if I am going to put hundreds of practice rounds through a rifle and then spend a week carrying it around rural Alaska, the 300 is more attractive for me than my 416.

A few of the oldtime bear hunters used 375s, most used whatever guns and ammo were readily available and not too expensive.

Paul

Paul

sounds like the govenor of california talking "girley boys"

I have shot and owned 30 cals for around 38 years . I have several 06's ect I belive one can kill about any thing one wants to with a well placed good 30 cailber bullets.

But after standing next to several full sized brown bear mounts and seeing full sized brown bears. I thought to my self yep I can kill one those with my 06 no dought.

But is it really big enough.

I built a 416 talyor for my brown bear hunt.

I have heard of and know people who have killed bears with the 243 win.. The 270 win the 280 rem and the 22-250.. Some of these bears were charges and 1 of them involved both a 243 and a 270 and quite a bit of foot raceing and dashing about.......... The 2 guys suprised a bear on a gut pile... Eskimos use 22 hornets to kill polar bear , and a sno go or dog team.....................Robert Raurk said he could kill a tiger with a hornet but that he used a 470 Nitro............... ......gumboot over

I'm not arguing that small rifles are great for bear hunting. I'm just passing along the State info as I remember. That data supported the premis that, for the average hunter in Alaska, The 300 win mag was the gun they were most likely to cleanly kill a bear with. I am not arguing that a 375 or larger gun would not work well if you could shoot it with equal facility as a "smaller" gun. I don't think anyone puts the 243 and the 300 win mag in the same catagory as big game rifles.

Maybe someone has this info around in an old box somewhere. If I am not remembering the study correcly, I will gladely retract the post.
But I'm pretty certain the 300 was more effective than the larger calibers they had info on.
Paul

PS
It's interesting that small rifles are often seen as "adequate" for women and teenagers. Does the effectiveness of a 308 increase dramatically if you don't have testicles?
Paul

quote:

Originally posted by ppod:
PS
It's interesting that small rifles are often seen as "adequate" for women and teenagers. Does the effectiveness of a 308 increase dramatically if you don't have testicles?
Paul

Only in the writer's world. In the hunting field and on the battle field the 308 still works for real men.

My PS on the 308 was in jest, I was not implying that the 308 doesn't work for real men(I shoot one too), only that some seem to think that the wife can use the 308, but they have to have a "big" caliber to do the same job cleanly. Obviously, if it's enough gun for the goose, it's enough gun for the gander.

I had a partner once who shot his moose six or seven times with a 375H&H(through the horn, etc) while his wife dropped hers with one shot from a 30-06. Caribou hunting went the same way with he emptying the 300 Weatherby at a bull and she dropping hers with one shot from the 243, and so on...

Paul

Probably everyone has seen the US Forest Service write up on thier findings as to what currently available at the time rifle , handgun and shotgun calibers and guages .. And their ability to stop a bear ..They listed different bullet weights for most of the calibers...... I,m not exactly sure how they worked up the data other than killing bears..........The top 5 in order were #1 458 win. mag.
#2 460 whby.
#3 375 H&H Mag
#4 338 win mag
#5 30/06 springfield

In conqunction with these findings they mandated that all U.S.F.S. personell . Be qualified with ,and at all times have imediatly with them ,a government issue 375 H&H mag. bolt action rifle. If the personell were working on the A .B .C .group or the mainland of Southeast ......................................... Men, Women ,Boys and Girls. .... And each spring and summer ,lots of college age, summer hire , full time and vollenteer personell have to shoot the rifles they will carry all summer.......................................The qualification is kind of tough too...........But they do it ................Some of the girls out shoot the guys.....................This is all done with factory ammo................ Some of them get to relly likeing thier rifles....... A 375 H&H does,t kick worth nothin...............Unless the rifle isn,t set up for you half deciently........... Even without a cob on them they don,t kick much......................... Any one who can shoot a 300 whby or RUM can shoot a 375 no problem....................If you can shoot a round of trap with a 12 ga. you can easily shoot a 375 well.. The trick is learning how , and how to do it right.......... In one of these threads someone posted a picture of a really nice looking 20" barreled 375.. ...It has a fluted barrel and is very accurate............What a perfact all around rifle.................The 358 Norma and the 338 win mag with good bullets are good or better than just good....same with the 9.3,s The 308 is a good deer rifle . Unless you ride the short bus.......gumboot out..

Well, this post proves there's more than one DIAMF that I've run into. Though I'm old enough and fortunate enough to have been taught to shoot by one of Elmer Keith's close friends, using him in this context is a rather moot point. Elmer liked a big gun, but he specialized in pistols, just like Jeff Cooper. O'Connor loved rifles and was actually a bit upset to have people say that it was HIS .270. He too, often preferred the larger calibers OF HIS DAY.

Damned skippy a Kodiak isn't an elephant, but dead by a Kodiak is just as damned dead as by an elephant. At least you won't end up being elephant shit when he finishes you like the Kodiak will turn you into.

There are MANY custom .30 rounds that will tackle the Kodiak. The .30-338. .300 RUM, and .300 Weatherby Mag come to mind. As for me, the .375 would be the minimum I'd want to have in my hands if it was ME HUNTING THE BEAR and not the other way around. And like M70Nut, if he's within 25 yards, I wanst to break that bitch down. A spine shot is just fine with me though I'd probably try to take out that high shoulder if I had time.

I've never hunted bear . But I do know how to read a down range energy chart. 30-06 With a 180gr.nos.partition pushed @ 2729fps at 200yds you are slamming the target with 2481 ftlb. a 458 win mag 400 gr.@2299 at 200 is 2212 ftlb. I'm guessing your shots are closer than that...I have a 375 h&h mag if I ever decide to shoot at elephants . nuf said.

Paul,,,,Genrally speaking ,,, First shots are quite a bit closer...... However the 458 win mag pushes a 400 gr bullet at around 2400 fps..With 79.5 gr of AA 2230 and a 215 primer ..All of my 458 Win,s do 2380 - 2425 fps... My biggest complaint with Barnes bullets is they quit makeing the 400 gr Barnes X bullet in 458 diameter..... LOCO ,,,,,,,,,,,,,According to the Barnes # 3 manual a 458 dia.X bullet ,starting @ 2400 fps is still going over 2000, fps @ 200 yrds.....and it produces in the neighborhood of 3700 ft lbs of clobber.......The man wounder can send a 180 gr XLC or Tripple Shock out the barrel @ 2800 fps or better... @ 200 yrds according to the Barnes book . That bullet is going about 2450 fps and hits with around 2400 ft.. lbs.............. 458 Win.has used the big 500 gr. rn. bullets with great success.,,, his load was 71 gr. of 3031 with a 500 gr Hornady soft point... I think even he would say the 458 hits considerably harder .......Even quite a ways away..And the 375 will really Bust a bears shoulder and they reliably knock bears down, as does the 9.3 x 62.........But a Red Mister ,,, its just wonderful...... HAWK will make 400 gr. spitzers,, in .458 even if Barnes doesn,t ,,,, Can,t understand why they don,t....... gumboot out.......

This thread has to be one of the most retarded discussed topics I have seen in a while. Some dumbazz blurts out some ridiculously poor written jabber about calibers, with all his statements having been proved false for 100 years and then we go back and forth comparing velocity differences between a 458 and a 30-06. This one should have ended long ago. I still dont even understand the title of this thread, what the hell does elephants have anything to do with women shooting .30 cals and brown bears....retarded?

AlaskaCub - I agree....