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One of Us |
I was always under the impression that tips came after the hunt was over, not before it started. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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| one of us |
As Kern charges more than any other operator and infers he has the best run camp, this is pretty disappointing. | |||
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| One of Us |
Historically guides are not paid very well. If you have a good, successful hunt, I would think $1,000 would be about right. velocity is like a new car, always losing value. BC is like diamonds, holding value forever. | |||
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One of Us |
Very interesting discussion. Unfortunately , based on most of the discussion previous - whilst I may just be able to afford a plainsgame hunt in Africa , if I have to add the tips suggested to the total , there aint no way I will even be boarding the plane to get there. From my perspective , if I buy a hunt for , say , $10,000 including trophy fees , that what I expect will be the cost . Not $15,000 due to having to pay everyone to do their job on top of what the "price" for the hunt is. Damn , looks like Africa or Alaska or the USA is right off my hunt agenda forever more... ________________________ Old enough to know better | |||
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One of Us |
Seems pretty rational to me. All is takes is one early season client shoot a huge sheep and leave $4000 in tip money and then the whole camp loses all initiative for the remainder of the season and for subsequent clients. If I had booked a later season hunt, I would be a bit upset if I found out some guy dropped a mid four figure tip on the guides and just made their whole year. | |||
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| one of us |
On the contrary, I would think the guides would be working extra hard to get you a huge sheep as well - because they know the last guy gave them 4K. | |||
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| One of Us |
Where do you get your information from? I know guides don't make a whole lot in comparison to other jobs, probably less if they are working for an outfitter. But from my experience on both sides of the issue, they evidently make enough to stay in the business. I have heard some of the folks that work as "Guides" on HF places complain about not making enough $$$$$, but from what I know about the situation, those "Guides", need to cut better deals with their employers, the person owning the land and offering the hunts. I worked a little on one of the HF/Deer breeding places, and other than their biologist, they hired new guides every year. Those individuals are more like the wait staff/bar tenders at cafe's/bars/restaraunts. They are basically seasonal employees, trying to make a living doing something they like or think they like. Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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| One of Us |
What you are describing is a very "first world" mindset and, while it might reflect what you or I would do, does not likely resemble what would happen in a place like Tajikistan or most parts of Africa (particularly with local guides in the first case or trackers in the second). Furthermore, $4000 might represent a years pay (or more!) in some of the places that people hunt. Given that, you get into a whole "income effect/substitution effect" argument when it comes to a persons willingness to supply labor. Raise my hourly wage 20% and sure I might work harder/more to capitalize on that raise and to reflect the fact that "not working' just became more expensive. But, if you increase my hourly wage another 100%, that previous phenomenon becomes overwhelmed by the fact that I can now "afford" the "expense" of "not working"...and I work less. Think about it this way, a $4000 tip in a place like Tajikistan might be like tipping a North American guide $30,000 or more. I would NOT want to be hunting Stone Sheep in a camp where the guide had been tipped 100% the week before. Something just tells me that he wouldn't be all that hungry to find me a sheep anymore. | |||
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| One of Us |
as a guide i've never treated the second client different, based off a tip from the client previous or any other client in the last 15 years...i'm not sure where you guys are dreamin' this up. but i know ZERO guides who think that this. How many of you have been the second hunter and tipped less than the guy before you, i've never told a client what the tip before them was, i'd be suprised if many of you knew what the guy before you tipped anyway...who knows, mabye someone did get tipped 100% and you never knew it... this is gettin' drug out way to far and way over kill...we should get back to really important things like whats the best brown bear back up caliber or something we can all agree on..  tip if you want to...whatever you want to. its your hunt, quit worrying about everyones feelings..... end of story. | |||
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| One of Us |
You know damn good and well humans, especially hunters can NEVER ALL AGRRE onm anything anytime!!!  Every site I have ever been on, hands down next to arguments over ethics, arguements about tips/gratuities and everything to do with them is probably one of the most contentious subjects there is in the hunting world. The one concept that seems to surface with greater frequency than any other, is that it is or should be up to the individual clients own discretion in the matter and that there is no nor ever should be a "Standard" established. To me "Tipping" has become huntings   issue NUMBER ONE!Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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| One of Us |
You are in the US I recall....and I specifically said that an abnormally large tip will negatively impact a guides behavior for the next client in a third world area like Tajikistan. $4000 there is not $4000 here. It is much more likely for a tip like that to spoil a guide or tracker in the third world because it is so possible for people to be living off even $2 a day in a some places. Why do you think PHs will discourage clients from overtipping the staff? Because they might flat out disappear never to be seen again, that's why. The equivalent tip of a years pay (Maybe $4000 in Tajikistan) would be much larger and very unlikely indeed in the US or Canada but I can very easily imagine some 20 year old seasonal guide even there impacted by such an extremely unlikely tip as 100% on a Stone Sheep hunt. People are people...it's the just the numbers that change. | |||
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| One of Us |
just the numbers that change?...your telling me that the people change too, depending on how much money they are given... i can see your point on a 3rd world country, i'm speaking specificly based off my experience as an alaskan guide. if someone tipped me 10 grand or 15 grand, if anything it would make me happier and less stressed on the next hunt! knowing more of my bills are taken care of would probably help me to have more fun with the next client, he'd probably get a better hunt if anything...not the other way around. | |||
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| One of Us |
Correct...but people do not fundamentally change across borders or income strata. People are people. They are generally consistent in the WAY they react to income/wage changes....wages and labor supplied are directly related up to a point and then the relationship inverts. It is only the amount of money required to induce that reaction or modification of peoples preferences and behaviors that is in fact variable...$4000 in Tajikistan, maybe $25,000 in Canada or the US. Like it or not, at some point, if you increase people's wages or offer a lump sum increase in their wealth, they WILL work less and not more. I personally do not want to hunt RIGHT AFTER the guy who made that change in someone...which is obviously MUCH more likely in a third world context. I respect your assertion that you and guides like you would hunt HARDER after a big tip like that and that the following client would probably receive a better hunt. This definitely highlights that you are the kind of guide who does it because he loves to hunt and loves the life of being a guide/outfitter. Maybe I am pessimistic, but I am not so sure that you represent the general case. | |||
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| One of Us |
Jake Please call me for a hunt after you get that big tip. That way you will take it easy on an old fart like me. Maybe some day we can share camp Larry | |||
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| one of us |
Tendrams: Let's put a different spin on this. At the end of the year, I give my employees a bonus based on our profit. I have never seen them work less hard after getting that bonus. On the contrary, they seem to work harder. Now maybe you work in the public sector and have seen different things, but my observation is that people appreciate getting paid for a job well done. Or put it a different way. Drop hints that you are not a big believer in tips. How motivating is that for the staff or guide with whom you are working? | |||
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| One of Us |
On the flip side of that, I just read The Big Short by Michael Lewis. In it, he quotes a financial sector employee who was discussing his investment bank's pay structure. Now, this is not exactly a sector of the world known for the absence of big bonuses! The guy essentially said, and I am paraphrasing....that the firm recognized four possible outcomes to paying you. You could be 1) Elated 2) satisfied 3) disgruntled or 4) Ultimately quitting. Now, they didn't want to pay you so poorly that you quit because that is a pain in the ass for them in that they have to search for your replacement and retrain that person. However, they also didn't want you elated or even satisfied because, if they had 1000 employees and they screwed each of them out of $10,000 in bonus money, that meant $10,000,000 in extra bonus money for them to split. The ideal outcome was therefore to keep their employees hungry enough to work harder for the next bonus, divide up the bonus money that you shorted them, and simultaneously keep them from quitting. The ideal outcome for them was keeping you somewhere between satisfied and disgruntled edging toward the latter. Point being...there is probably an optimal or equilibrium tip/bonus amount that exists somewhere between workers quitting because they feel just rich enough and workers being pissed off and quitting for the opposite reason. | |||
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| One of Us |
Gee, I wonder if the communication problem has anything to do with one person talking about tipping here in North America and the North American intellect versus tipping in a Third World Country and their concept of tipping/bribes? Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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one of us |
Since everyone seems to be expounding on various semi-related ideas, here is another to consider. When you compare workers under capitalism vs communism you will see that under capitalism one works hard hoping that their extra effort will be noticed and rewarded while under communism one has no incentive to work any harder than absolutely necessary. Which type guide would you choose to hunt with? Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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| one of us |
The Big Short was a good book; you should read his first book, "Liar's Poker." | |||
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One of Us |
If I were a outfitter I would charge 20K for a bear hunt instead of 18K and give my guides 2000 to share and be done with it. Actually some PR agent could angle that so I were the only outfitter in the biz that refused to take any tips......"Some Phs works hard for tips...I work hardest without one" - (A photo of Phil ala John Sharp dragging a 70 incher down a mountain, could be a winner  Just sayin | |||
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One of Us |
I have talked to several booking agents about this. Everyone is booking the Hot Springs camp so you are correct it doesn't matter who you go with. I can't remember the name of the family, but everyone is using the same outfitter as they have a monopoly. My friend who is a taxidermist in Wyoming went to the hot springs camp, and he tipped the skinner first and gave him $100. The skinner was pissed, but my friend only brought $1500 cash as that was all he had to his name. They don't seem to be very understanding of working class guys who save up to go on big hunts over there. I have heard quite a few stories from folks who have gone. | |||
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| one of us |
Ever since Marco Polo travelled through the Pamirs the Tajiks and other tribes in the area have made their living separating travelers from their goods. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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| One of Us |
It is a damn shame that tipping has become the norm, and if you don't tip people think you are an asshole. I don't tip my car mechanic, the plumber, or any other person who comes to my house to fix something. You set the price you want to charge and thats what people should pay, period. Part of my income was doing custom matting and framing of art work. Never in 15 years did I ever expect a tip, and never got one. My reward was repeat customers. If I go on a guided hunt and the cost is $10,000 then thats what the guide will get. I aint paying his help or tipping him for a job well done. Is he going to reduce the rate because he didnt do a good job? Doubt it! If he needs a tip for doing a better job then he needs to find another client besides myself. He is supposed to do a good job because his fee was paid. If he isnt making enough money then he should up his fee. If you want to tip, your choice. I'll follow my heart and you can follow your's. My biggest fear is when I die my wife will sell my guns for what I told her they cost. | |||
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One of Us |
Yes; kind of like all inclusive resorts but I can almost guarantee that if you did that there would be someone who, wishing to look better than all others, would still tip starting the whole vicious cycle all over again. In an effort to expand my cultural knowledge, I've been listening to some CDs on France. On a recent CD it was said that in France, tips are usually already included on a restaurant check and went on to say that notwithstanding that you could go ahead and leave a tip anyway. The whole mentality that if you do a good job, or maybe not that good a job, you should get a tip is corrupting. | |||
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| one of us |
Entire subject makes my head hurt. Never liked this tipping thing as it always made me uncomfortable. Enough, not enough, too much? Can I afford what the guy really should get? Mostly how do you show true gratitude for a job well done? To convey the true emotion and appreciation for someone's hard work, is it really as simple as throwing money around? I do not think so but many do. At the same time a little extra cash goes a long way in solving a lot of everyone's problems. In the end it isn't about money to me but showing true gratitude. If the only way you think that is appropriate is by throwing money around then I am out. Especially as it seems to me it becomes more and more expected. The prices on hunts have become stupid even without tips. I am sorry but there has to be a better way. At the same time I have always been generous when I could. Tipping as such seems to me to be totally impersonal with no thought about the other person or any of yourself put into it as well. Happiness is a warm gun | |||
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| One of Us |
whever a tip is expected, i tip. folks need money just like me, why not keep the wheels greased. i tip good to, exspcially since i've been blessed with some nice tips as well, pass the love around, even though its a weird custom its still an awesome way to show someone you appreciate what they did. a little humanity and some love can be said with a tip! | |||
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| One of Us |
Tipping is just plain stupid IMO. If the Outfitter is not making enough, then charge more to hunt. It is a dumb tradition that is now going WAY over board. Case in point- Now, just about every 90% self service eatery has a "tip" jar in it now. 15 years ago, I never saw one! Now, having said this, I am a hypocrite! I do tip because I feel bad for the people who have agreed to a lower wage that is tip dependent. I went fishing over the weekend and stopped in Wyoming to eat. I paid about $15 for a terrible meal. Should I have left a "percentage" tip? Upon returning from fishing the next day, I stopped at another place and bought a hamburger for about $8.50. It was great food! Should the tip have been a "percentage" as well! Just include the costs in the price of the hunt. Both the hunter and outfitter will have a good outcome! Just my opinion..... | |||
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