Hunting Brown bear in September. I am very excited! What would be a customary tip for a 2 on 1 fully guided hunt?

chronic

10 to 20 percent of total cost.

Never give binoculars, knife, clothing, or anything else. Unless you ask them.

I had a really nice new digital SLR in Africa and my outfitter wanted it, so we traded.

I personally hate tipping, but it is a service industry just like waitressing and part of their salary is based on tips.

I don't think 10%-20% is standard at all.

The standard is whatever "feels right" and whatever you can afford.

It also depends on whether the Guide is also the Owner.

IMO, tips are meant to be "you did a good job and made my hunt enjoyable, here is a little extra"

Brown Bear hunts are $11K-$13K and usually last 6-8 days. I think that using $1100-$2600 as a baseline for a tip is just out of bounds.

If I was successful and had a good time, I would be perfectly comfortable tipping $500 to the Guide and if my personal finances were such that I could only afford a tip of $300, I would not feel embarrassed by that.

I have seen in recent years a couple of things arise that are just perplexing:

1. Comparing being a guide to the restaurant industry. It is well established in the restaurant industry that wait staff are paid the minimum wages and that tips are by far the major portion of their compensation.

Every Guide I have talked to has said tips are nice and of course greatly appreciated but we don't accept a guide job for a season based on the tips we might get.


2. Especially over in Africa, I have seen clients bragging about how much they tipped their PH. Attempting to somehow create this image of "I am special or I am now part of the real safari crowd because I am a big tipper".



At the end of the hunt, take into account: how hard the guide worked, how many days was the hunt, did they do the extra little things to make your hunt enjoyable.

The right number will just kind of come to you.

Don't forget to give some money to the outfitter to split up amongst the cook and camp staff.

I would not start with a percentage of the cost of the hunt.

I would say 10% is average but then again I dont deal with many hunts over 5k. 10% to me seems to be along the lines of "you did a good job and got a decent animal" I have recieved everything from being stiffed( maybe first time guided hunters and I don't think they knew tipping is standard) but I never utter the word tip on a hunt. All they way to 50% and I even recieved a medal for "award for excellence" by a military officer plus a generous tip. As a guide I'm a big fan of good tips but more because when I start a hunt I feel like if I'm not giving all I can or working my very hardest, I feel like I'm throwing money away and I dont like to do that. Also I kind of tell my self "No trophy, No tip" and it's all ways of keeping me super motivated and pushing my self to the limit on every hunt!

Over the past few years most of my guides have been seeing tips around 10%
And when you think about it why not?
If a waitress or waiter is worth 15% of the total bill and spends maybe 5 to 10 minutes at most carrying your food to the table. Yet they don't cook your food, clean up the dishes and wash them.
A guide spends 24 hours per day with their client for days on end, helping in camp, doing all the cooking, serving and cleaning, packing the hunter's gear around some mountain looking for game ( sometimes while they nap) then assist in the stalk, set up the shot, find the animal, clean their game, then carry it back to camp where they cape and salt it.
Which one deserves the biggest tip?

Geez Phil, I guess that crisp new $50 bill I have saved won't cut it in September? :-)

It's not a question in my book are they "worth it". My point is almost just that, tip them what it is "worth to you and what you feel good about".

But as I mentioned earlier...there is a difference in the compensation structure for guides and that of waiters and waitresses and trying to draw comparisons between the two is not appropriate because of the differences in the nature of labor markets and macro wage negotiations in the industries.

For example in CA a waiter at a reasonably priced restaurant can make $80k a year. But of that $80K, $60K was in tips and about $20K in hourly wages. The entire compensation structure for the labor market is based on tips.

I would be surprised that the wage negotiation between guides and outfitters is based on the guide's pay from the outfitter being only 25% of the guides total compensation.

When a waiter/waitress is evaluating a place to work they ask question such as:

1) What is the average revenue per seating?
2) How many seatings per shift on the shifts that I work?
3) How many tables will be in my area?
3) What is average ticket $ per seating?
4) What is the average tip rate.

The perspective employee takes all that and multiplies by the avg tip rate to calculate their expected tip compensation and then adds on base hourly wages to evaluate their total compensation.

If the restaurant owner misled the waiter/waitress about the numbers, they generally quit and move on rather quickly.

I agree with the points Mike is making, to a point. I agree with 458Win more.

People on the varius forums have been trying to codify or establishsome form of structured "Tipping" scale for a few years now in the hunting industry.

I have been given plenty of really good tips and have had folks not give me anything. They got the exact same level of service, it is just one of those personal things that differs from one person to the next.

My take is the client is paying for the hunt, whether they tip or not or the amount they choose to tip, is all strictly THEIR business.

Tips are great and can mean a lot when everything has wound down and the seasons are over. Trying to estblish some sort of structured guidelines for tipping just does not mean quite that much too me.

Only the guy paying for the hunt can figure out what he can afford to tip.

I have seen it written several times that you shouldn't go on a hunt if you can't afford a 10-20% tip. I think that's kind of BS.

We have service industries like Aviation where you don't tip the flight attendant, mechanic or pilot. The flight attendant will feed you and give you something to drink, the pilot and mechanic make sure you get there alive. You put your life thanklessly more in those two peoples hands than you do any other time in your life. Yet they don't get tips.

I hate tipping, I think the entire concept is bullshit. The problem with tipping is that without it customer service usually sucks.

This is the case here in Australia, since tipping isn't really done, customer service is in the shitter, and it's not only in diners and bars it's everywhere. Even in businesses that don't normally have tipping.

So is tipping the problem or is it just customer service that sucks because it's an Australian standard?

Southern Europe also has horrible customer service, again is tipping to blame or is it just their nature?

If tipping went away in the guiding industry what would happen?

I wish I had the answer, I don't think anyone does.

The best we can do is hope for a good hunt, tip when we have the finances available to do so and hope for the best.

Tip based on the service you get. The amount is your choice as it can add considerably to a once in a lifetime hunt if you go with a standard percentage.

I suggest that you decide what the hunt should be and if it lives up to that plus some, tip them as well as you can. If it is simply as expected, tip them based on their level of buster factor. That is the point after all. If they bust their ass beyond expectation, tip them. If not, well, they probably won't be around long.

I have been on both ends of this one.

As a packer/cook, I was paid a wage with tips being a bonus. As a guide, I have been paid a wage with tips as a bonus (hunting, and fishing), and I have been paid basically tips only (flyfishing trips, not hunting). Either way, I tried my damnedest to make even the worst conditions enjoyable.

NOT because I wanted a tip. But because most of the folks I guided were living their dream and they would get only one chance at it.

Jeremy

quote:

So is tipping the problem or is it just customer service that sucks

Just my take on this. From comments I have seen on AR about the subject. Tipping, is a Western i.e. American Institution.

The best tippers I have ever had were all New Yorkers. Up there especially in NYC if you want good service at a bar/club/restaraunt, you basically start tipping people when you walk in the door of an establishment. It has spread across the country and now the world.

As with anything else, it is a two way street.

While some folks expect to get a tip for minimal service/effort, some clients simply do not tip not matter how well you kiss their ass.

My philosophy is that I am going to do the best job I possibly can to ensure my clients have a good time on their hunt, see game, get shot opportunities, get fed decently and if everything goes right, kill the animal they are after. I sell hunts, not kills.

When the clients leave camp, tip or no tip, if I feel that I did the best job possible and am satisfied with the job I did, that is all that really matters.

i'll admit, some tips have helped my family make it thru the winter, some clients don't tip.
It is not mandatory!!! it is appreciated ALOT!!
will you get badmouthed by guides if you don't tip...probably.
would i rebook a hunter that didn't tip...of course. do i remember what all the tips where and who tipped and who didn't...no. at the end of the day its up to you...

I agree that tips are - or should be - a bonus for above average service. My comments though are to make folks think about exactly what a guide does vs what a waiter does. Especially if waiters make $80k per year! I don't know any guides who make that. And I guarantee they work a lot harder.
It is not the fault of any guide that waiters don't get paid a fair hourly rate. Heck, if you are figuring hourly rates guides don't make as much as waiters.

quote:

Originally posted by MOA TACTICAL:
10 to 20 percent of total cost.

I don't see why it should be a percentage of total cost, especially when this includes non-service elements such as a trophy/kill fee, government levy, taxes, etc. A percentage of the daily rate charged by the outfitter would be more reasonable.

The whole tipping thing is stupid. You get a price for a hunt and then pay someone an additional tip to do their job? That said, I think an appropriate guideline would be:

1. 10% of total cost of the hunt as charged by the outfitter provided the total cost is fair to begin with. It's sometimes such a crock; a hunt or other service is very overpriced to begin with and then you tip on the inflated price?

2. $0 if the guide is also the owner of the company.

3. $0 if service wasn't at least standard and as advertised.

4. In further elaboration of #3, there are some outfitters that advertise hunts when the chance of getting the advertised animal is very small. Unless this fact is known up front, I would say $0 if you don't have a reasonable chance to get your animal.

I usually figure the total trophy fees and tip 10% of that. That is the amount the PH or guide is responsible for. The camp and other cost are the burden of the outfitter and should have those expenses and profit covered in his overall hunt cost. As for tipping the owner if he is the guide that is just a personal thing sometimes I do 10% some times I think they owe me money.
Oh well
Larry
Oh I forgot always tip the cook especially if you plan on coming back.

"At the end of the hunt, take into account: how hard the guide worked, how many days was the hunt, did they do the extra little things to make your hunt enjoyable."

The above is what a tip is for. Note Mike did not mention size or number of trophies as criterion for tipping.

Chronic,

Tipping is completely up to you but my guideline is about $75-$100 per day for a DG hunt depending on how you felt the hunt went. Since you are hunting 2x1 your tip probably should be a little more as the guide undoubtedly will have to work his butt off to get both of you a chance at a good bear.

Mark

I was just checking out a 21 day hunt in Tanzania (the discount made it $74,000) plus $5,100 one way charter flight out of Arusha .. plus $20,000 deposit on the trophy fees ... I wonder what the PH will expect on that kind of big ticket safari ????

Tremendous responses guys. Very much appreciated.

chronic

tipping is between the guide/ph and client. The client must remember h ow hard the guide/ph worked for him in a manner perhaps not on the time clock, and the guide/ph must remember that all clients are not rich, and that some simply cannot afford large tips

If I have learned anything in over thirty years of guiding it is that a heartfelt tip -of any amount- from a hunter who worked as hard as his guide and who appreciated the entire effort is the best "thank you" he can give.

quote:

If I have learned anything in over thirty years of guiding it is that a heartfelt tip -of any amount- from a hunter who worked as hard as his guide and who appreciated the entire effort is the best "thank you" he can give.

I have had clients give me a 12 pack of beer that meant more to me than $$$ would have.

This is an interesting discussion for me because the country I live in does not have tipping as a part of its culture. . I find the whole concept embarrassing because I dont know what is the "correct" thing to do.

When I book a hunt with a guide here in New Zealand ,or in Australia, tipping doesnt feature because the asking price is the price. Whilst many NZ guides who cater to foreign customers may accept tips I very much doubt any locals pay extra for a service we expect to be delivered to the best of the guides ability. Nobody I have hunted with has ever paid a tip here.

So - where does that place someone like myself , who may potentially book a hunt in the US , or Africa , or wherever , or indeed what should I do during my forthcoming family vacation to the USA ? I really dont know .....

muzza, I couldn't agree with you more. We Americans have institutionalized the tip to the point that when you eat at a restaurant a 15-20% tip is added to your bill if you are sitting at a table with 6 people.
If you hunt and work as hard in camp as every NZ hunter I have ever hunted with and ( if you think they have earned it ) leave your guide a few hundred dollars, they will be appreciative and look forward to hunting with you again.


Once a tip becomes expected it comes pretty close to a bribe. Which it has in some Asian countries where they demand their "tip" in advance.

Over the years, I have talked more than 1 person out of trying to become a guide, simply by telling them that if they were wanting to get into it expecting to make a good living off of tips from clients, they really needed to rethink their plan.

Well here is an idea, a lot of these guides are young men.
Probably would not hurt if they could learn a few tricks from some of the well seasoned hunters what a great beginning to a tip.
I have shared lots of camping and shooting tips with many guides.
Larry

quote:

I usually figure the total trophy fees and tip 10% of that. That is the amount the PH or guide is responsible for. The camp and other cost are the burden of the outfitter and should have those expenses and profit covered in his overall hunt cost.

A great guideline to reward performance.

Jim

In France the tip is in the bill like it or not.

heres a thought...
most won't tip the outfitter...
what if the outfitter is also your guide? is it still a no no or do you still tip based as a gratuity of his service for you..?

I used to roll this around in my head a lot!
Here is what I do now, I ask.
I get it right out there before I book the hunt, it matters not if it has been Alaska or Africa. Not one guide/outfitter nor PH has seemed offended. It is part of the cost of the hunt, no one likes hidden costs.

Many Thanks

HBH

10% to 20% is usually what I have allways done, unless something was not as advertised or if the guide did something lazy or wrong..... ( had a goose guide once go "looking for a cripple" was gone for over an hour, clearly he was sleeping in the truck thats just clearly unacceptable.....

However , if the guide busted ass, and the problem was with the outfitter, I will still tip the guide.

At the end of the day, its entirely up to you.... Do whatever you feel right and can afford.

My rule is to overtip breakfast waitresses and undertip servers at swanky places. The former busts ass 99% of their shift and it's often for tips on a $6 tab. I will often leave a ten spot or sometimes more. In the latter case, they are usually working under MUCH better conditions for what might be a $400-$500 table depending on the number of people sitting there and how much they drink. I just won't tip 20% on that...might not even tip 10% depending on the service and what the total bill actually is.

For me, the same general rule applies for guided hunts. I will almost certainly tip 10% of the total daily rates on a plains game safari in Africa but I sure as hell would not tip 10% on the total price of a $25,000 Stone Sheep hunt or even on the daily rates on a 21 day Tanzania safari. Frankly, while I know they all generally bust their asses, I also have a tough time tipping North American guides the same or more than an African PH who (generally, where I hunt) spent two years as an Appy before he really made his first dime in the business. Make no mistake, I do greatly respect North American guides as many are tough as nails and incredibly good at what they do....but ask a Zim PH and a Montana Elk guide the Latin name of a flower in their area and guess which one is much more likely to know the answer. I also generally don't tip the owner (even if he is also my PH) as I figure their return is built into the price.

All that said, and I know Guides/PHs don't really have truly direct control over trophy quality, I will absolutely overtip if an amazing animal is taken. I shot a sweet B&C quality North American animal once and that guide did more than a bit better than 10% of total hunt cost. THe same thing happened in Zim when I took a top 5 Rowland Ward Bushbuck. No, I do NOT ever undertip for "average" trophies.

Additionally, no one seems to have mentioned the 2x1 element to the original question. Hypothetically, even if a 2x1 hunt costs 80% of a 1x1 hunt, it seems unlikely that either hunter would be getting any more than say 60% of the service they would get if they had booked 1x1. We tip for service right? What then becomes the appropriate tip? If someone was to hypothetically tip $800 on an $8000 1x1 hunt does it then make sense for each hunter on a 2x1 hunt (costing $6400 each) to tip something less than that 10% that so the total tip (for both hunter combined) is say $1000...even though the individual hunt cost is $6400 and the total tip would theoretically be about $1300 following the 10% rule? I don't know.

JMHO

quote:

We tip for service right?

Do you really think so? So, you pay for a guided hunt and service isn't included?

The whole tipping thing is stupid. It probably started out with someone wanting to tip (or bribe) someone into giving them more prompt or better service than was given to someone else. Then there are those who want to be nice or be taken as a big shot. The majority probably tip because the habit is been so ingrained that they feel guilty if they don't tip.

It has gone so far that some companies tell you what you're supposed to tip. Some even feel guilty about not tipping if the service or hunt was substandard.

So how far is this stupidity going to go? Are you going to tip your doctor, your attorney, your mail person, the UPS Driver, your plumber, etc. for good service?

We all ought to just stop tipping or, failing that, only tipping when service was at a minimum average.

quote:

The whole tipping thing is stupid. It probably started out with someone wanting to tip (or bribe) someone into giving them more prompt or better service than was given to someone else. Then there are those who want to be nice or be taken as a big shot. The majority probably tip because the habit is been so ingrained that they feel guilty if they don't tip.

Sounds like a really reasonable estimation of the situation.

If I shot a Stone sheep I would have no problem tipping $2500 - or more. Sorry, but if I get great trophies, I tend to tip good. I don't get paid for effort in business, I get paid for results. Now, show me a bunch of game, let me pass on them, you have done a great job. I don't have to get something to tip, but I can assure you if I don't see any legal game, my tip won't be that great.

I wouldn't dream of going on brown bear hunt and only tipping $500. Man, if you are convinced a tip higher than that is too much, I really do think you should stay home. Most guides bust their ass, and unlike LEOs and firefighers, aren't going to get a 90 percent disability pension when their backs or knees give out 20 years later.

My last hunt was in Tanzania; I hunted in Masailand for 10 days in January. My daily rate was $1700/day, and I tipped a total of a little over $2500 if I recall. I tipped my PH $1100. He probably thought I was cheap because I asked him to get a few stock quotes on his mobile instead of mine, but I remembered that nice gesture when I tipped him. In fact, as I recall, my Benjamins were not new (lots of people in Africa want new bills), so he actually paid the staff tips and let me wire my tip to him later, which I did when I returned home.

The issue I have with tips is when I have two guides. Man, I am sick of that. Am I supposed to tip both guys the same amount? In Africa last Jan I had three trackers - I only need one.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
If I shot a Stone sheep I would have no problem tipping $2500 - or more. Sorry, but if I get great trophies, I tend to tip good.

To each their own and all that ...but one reason I would have a tough time tipping $2500 to a Stone Sheep guide is because the 10% rule implies that I would be tipping $650 to a Rocky Mountain Goat guide or $1,300 to a Dall's Sheep guide. Just because hunters place a higher economic value on one species vs. the other does not mean that the guides aren't probably putting forward the exact same effort.

If a guy gets a MASSIVE Stone Sheep and feels $2500 is appropriate, then so be it, but would a guide on that hunt really feel stiffed getting tipped $1000 on a 10 day hunt? Maybe I just need to "stay home".

I do not care how big something is, I ain't tipping based on the size of the critter, I am tipping on the services rendered. killing something or not killing something is immaterial as hell in my book.

And I sure as hell ain't staying at home over what someone else thinks is proper concerning a tip.

There are NO standards for tipping and never should be when it comes to hunting and fishing.

Too me the cost of the hunt is irrelevant to the tip. I tip on number of days and effort put out by the guide/PH and crew provided the area is good and the animals are obviosly there. This 10% thing is silly when you start to talk about really expensive safaris. I work with Rungwa Safaris in Tanzania and a 21 day cat hunt starts at $87,000 before trophy fees. So with the 10% thing you'd tip the PH $8,700 plus how much for the crew? That's ridiculous. Even in Tanzania I think $100+ per day is sufficient and the same to be split among the crew.

Mark

Mark does bring up a good point - that in different countries a large tip can have unintended consequences and wide ripple effects.
Asking the outfitter or even booking agent is a good place to start.
When I hunted Tajikistan Bob Kern said not to tip over $200 - but the guides claimed that we were "required" to tip 10% of of the hunt as that was standard. When we refused they shut down the camp and left that evening and we had to drive 14 hours back to Osh that night.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
When I hunted Tajikistan Bob Kern said not to tip over $200 - but the guides claimed that we were "required" to tip 10% of of the hunt as that was standard. When we refused they shut down the camp and left that evening and we had to drive 14 hours back to Osh that night.

Rule #1: Tip right as you get on the plane...and preferably with your trophies in checked baggage