we have 131 acers of prime deer land always open to the SPORTSMAN. in june of this year a albino was born in sept. it was killed less than 3 month of life against my wish to let it be. I have no idea who killed it BUT I am one pissed off land owner. I am of mind to post my land and close it to all further access. I started out this morning to post the land . I have found beer cans soda cans etc in the past and gave that a pass but this is to much. I have hunted for over 75 years and this is to much to kill a fawn for no other reason than it being white. no wonder the tree huggers have no use for the hunter.

I have 2 piebald-mostly white fawns on my farm. -Piebald deer result from a genitive trait that usually shows up when a deer herd is overpopulated. These are not albino.
A albino animal has no pigment. So no pigment in their eyes.red eyes. Albinos will usually slowly go blind from no pigment to block out sunlight.

It might be best if this was moved to the American Hunting discussion area.

But apart from the killing of the fawn, the bigger issue and it is the one that caused the majority of land in Texas to be closed to public access was the issue of trash and lack of respect for the landowners generosity to allow access. This was well before leased deer hunting became popular and profitable.

I would close the land to public hunting if it were mine.

Of course you should post your land, keep in mind the road to hell is paved with good intentions!

Would you allow everyone to come and go in your house! you can allow hunting if you wish, but require they ask permission..Ive ranched off and on my whole life among other business ventures, you have to be the steward of your land otherwise you will be the looser.

I'd post it but are you sure someone killed the fawn?

Fawn mortality is quite high in many areas.

My land is posted for my own protection. With the sue happy times we live in some idiot might go out and hurt himself, sue me and end up the owner.

I'd post it with "Hunting by written permission only." Advise your local game warden they must have written permission on their person if he encounters anyone on your land. Once they contact you, they will have to see you in person in order to gain written permission. Make casual conversation about the fawn and you might be able to sort out who killed it, IF a hunter shot it or a predator took it.

My parents allowed hunting on our 350 acre farm in east central Pa, by permission from the 50's thru the early 90's and never really had any issues. You just have to let them know that if there is any nonsense, they won't be allowed back. In my mind, the posting of property w/o allowing public hunting and/or leasing of properties to generate income dollars has been the biggest reason for the decline of hunting opportunities for young potential hunters. These young potential hunters ARE the only thing going to protect our sport for the next 50 years. If you have not seen a MAJOR decline in the numbers of young hunters under the age of 35, especially under the age of 20 you are blind. Go ahead, let's do MORE damage to our sport!

Woodrow you bring up a good point about the loss of hunting opportunities and decline in the numbers of young people taking up hunting.

Someone else made a good point, actually a great point concerning the level that filing a lawsuit over an injury on someone else's property has risen to.

I have talked with a lot of folks here in Texas that stopped allowing anyone/everyone on to their land because they were afraid of getting sued.

I usually follow the no hunting signs to the better hunting anyway.

So... Lamar, Are you kidding or are you part of the problem???

quote:

Originally posted by WBT:
I would close the land to public hunting if it were mine.

^What he said.

And take every last trespasser to court. The growing lack of respect for one another in this country is appalling.

Yes, I think you should post and give selective permission in writing.

That said, in different ares of the country where I own property the laws differ greatly as to posting. In one area the "No Trespassing" must be a certain distace apart, another area is the NT signs must be visable where ever one crosses onto the land. Some require your name and contacts to appear on the sign. Anything like this can and will be brought up should you decide to prosecute.

I can't comment on the white fawn but the trash issue pisses me off. I see this in remote Alaska when I fly in and see what others left behind.

Good luck,
Cal

If not fenced, fence it. Post it. Grant permission selectively with the understanding if any minute issues occur they will never be allowed back.

Then be anal retentive about enforcing your contract!

There is no reason for anyone to EVER trash property that doesn't belong to them or destroy resources just because.

Yes this sucks and is unacceptable. I can't find places to hunt in Kentucky for this same reason. My last real place was closed off to me after someone poached 5 deer of the property, cutting out the back straps and leaving the rest. The landowners knew it wasn't me but they have to protect their property and I was the last hunter the allowed.

I would definitely fence, and then post it.

And, I would know anybody who came on my place to hunt.

I watched colonies of Rockchucks on 20,000 acres of posted ground one spring. I went to the house one morning and asked the family for permission to shoot a few Rockchucks, and was finally given permission. Nobody had shot at them for about thirty years, after some slob shot one of their barn cats. The third year, after seeing scores of nice deer and some nice Elk, I asked and received permission to hunt them.

Did I mention I asked the farmer's wife what sort of adult beverage he preferred, and took a quart over every spring and after hunting season?

It was good for more than twenty years, until some slob shot one of his black angus steers. How can you mistake a 1200 lb black angus steer for a 200 lb grey mule deer?

Post it with out a doubt, you can always allow hunting with permission.

The major factor is liability--

nope I'm serious.

if someone has posted their land they got tired of people just using their property and not respecting it.
following the signs and asking around will generally lead you to someone that doesn't care if you hunt there they just want you to respect their property.
I get a lot of NO's but a few yesses, and quite often I just use the property to access state land that is locked up by private property.
as soon as they see you just come in and go out through their property they have no problem letting you use the land for other types of hunting.
I had one farmer call me after a couple of years of using his one piece as an access point and asked me if I hunted anything other than deer.
yep.
good I own some other property over here and it has a ton of ground squirrels and rock chucks eating my alfalfa.
don't shoot my water wheels..
he died a couple of years back and the property has been closed to me again.
but this last year I found an access gate that goes between 2 property's but is on private land and gained access through the property again.
I followed the access up into some forest service property and skirted the private land edges up there.
this got me and the daughter on to 2 pretty nice bucks.
and I used the access property to drag them from the forest service property back off their ridgeline down to the main road.
if that land wasn't posted I never would have looked at the maps to find the locked up land behind it.

quote:

Originally posted by Sean Russell:
Post it with out a doubt, you can always allow hunting with permission.

The major factor is liability--

I own 150 acres of Coues deer and javelina habitat. I have not posted it and will not. As for liability, an umbrella policy covers all of my properties. The cost of liability insurance on undeveloped and unoccupied land is minimal.

Bill Quimby

I am pretty sure that for someone to sue and win a case for injuries, especially if over and above the cost of medical treatment, whether invited to a persons property or trespassing that person must prove either negligence or intent to harm others. Yes, even if property is posted a trespasser can still sue if you presented a situation with the intent to harm or gross negligence.

Lamar,

I really appreciate the thoughtful answer.

Having had too many nightmarish incidents with trespassers and poachers to count over the years, I skeptically assumed you where implying by your initial post that you purposely focused on posted areas to poach.

That’s great that you work so hard to seek permission and that good relationships with land owners have developed into some great experiences. If only more people were as thoughtful and careful as you are.

Best of luck with your adventures.

On the general topic: Liability is a ridiculously real threat. I’ve been hired as an expert witness in a hunting liability case, and whether the person suing you can demonstrate negligence or not, the defense against these charges can ruin years of your life and cost well into the 6 figures. Land owners have to get liability insurance, but that doesn’t guarantee a suit won’t wreck your life and/or cost you a whole lot of money. Theoretically the liability insurance should help you, but in actual practice too often the insurance company just ends up being another party you have to fight in court (to try to get them to help you). I’ve joked for a long time that what would help access for hunting the most is open season on attorneys.

Kyler

quote:

As for liability, an umbrella policy covers all of my properties. The cost of liability insurance on undeveloped and unoccupied land is minimal.

Plus a lot of states have laws holding the land owner not liability if one allows hunting or other actives on their lands. Wis. past one some years back.

The excuse of I am worried about liability or some one shot my cow are common ones.

If all the times I heard them were true there would not be a land owner alive that hasn't been sued nor would there be a cow that hasn't been shot.

They have become a connivance reason to say no I don't allow any one else to hunt my property or pay me to do so.

I am big just tell the truth no need to make up reasons.

A lot of land owners worry and spend more time trying to keep other away then actually hunting themselves.

I allow any body that respect my property to hunt. Don't do that don't come.

I found a group of atv's on it one day I just told them don't leave ruts and drive on both sides of the roads it keeps the brush back.

Pissing people off on property you are not able to be there and take care of every day leads to bad things.

I found allowing reliable people to use it they tend to look out for it also.

The problem is, every state IS different concerning this issue.

Texas is one where LandOwner Rights are really important, but that does not people from suing and winning.

When I was a kid growing up in the 50's/early 60's, all a person had to do was ask permission and go along with the landowners rules, but that all changed.

Our country became "Sue Happy" and Personal Responsibility went out the window. Ranchers/Farmers stopped allowing folks on their properties because people were getting sued because they did not have sense enough to realize that a bull might not taken kindly to someone driving a 4 wheeler right up to them.

10/4 Randle,justice has been thrown under the wheels.Some idiot comes on your property without permission ,messes up + then gets the right to sue you!?We are of the same age + attitude. Thus I have painted my gate posts purple,(Tx. Law considers that not only as POSTED but no one can carry a weapon on your property without your permission.)There are other stipulations;per se,how many posts need to be painted,etc.For an owner of small property ,this is a God send.Some of these abstract laws are really good to know.Hope this helps

quote:

but that does not people from suing and winning

Ok Norm and Randall can ether of you two come up with an actual case instead of a heard about one.

Some in this area have gone the Purple Paint route on their properties, we haven't yet on the properties I work on. In this area, the landowners, their families and the folks that work for them, sort of look out for each other and have pretty good lines of communication.

Many of us have either or both the Game Wardens/County Sheriff's contact numbers on our cell phones, and most of us "know" the normal vehicles in the area, and when a new vehicle shows up, nearly all of us trend toward being nosy and we check around and see if any any of the regulars know anything about this new element, is it a new vehicle someone just bought, is it someone new to the area, is it a new hunter on one of the area leases.

The farther out you are from bigger cities/population areas the easier it is to monitor such things.

One other thing a person finds out, locks and chains are only good for keeping honest people honest.

Are you sure it was killed by a person and not animal or natural cause?

kinda reminds me of something that happened here a few years back.
this farmer had a beautiful campsite nest to a river. a family asked permission to have a picnic there and the farmer agreed. but when they left they left their garbage.
the farmer was a bit pissed, but calm. he saved up all his garbage for a couple of weeks and then dumped it in their yard
well they were very upset and called the cops. the farmer calmly took the ticket and went to court. He explained the whole thing to the judge, who then threw the complaint out saying that he should have thrown more

That trash story is great. I wish it was always that easy dealing with dirt bags.

The best local story I’ve heard was an old rancher that kept catching a VW bus parked on the edge of his ranch. He kicked them out several times, but they kept parking there. He figured they were growing pot, but couldn’t locate it. So when he came across the bus while grading his roads with his D7 he just dug a pit and buried it. The dirt bags never reported it and they stayed off of his ranch after that.

I would post and let only those people who you can vouch for use it, this way they can keep an eye out for those who violate your wishes. I was forced to post my land because of poaching and garbage left behind, seemed I spent a considerable amount of time looking out for glass beer bottles and other garbage. I drove up during the winter and let my dog out and he came back with a deer leg, followed the dog and and found 15 more, seemed they would butcher them behind the garage, called the wardens and they just made a report

In Montana , no need to post your land as under trespassing law, you have to know where you are at and possess permission to trespass
No excuses like " there was no sign..."

Ive ranched most of my life, owned some and leased some..Its my land and only friends and relitives are allowed to hunt it..All was in Texas and all land was privately owned..I used to let a few folks hunt, but they toss cans out the window and had one cow I had to kill because she stepped on a beer can and it bent around her foot, she got sick and holed up and I didn't find her in time..Big ranch and ran few cattle so it was hard to keep check on them. Everytime you allow folks you don't know on your land you will see the marks they leave, so I took the high road and stopped hunting if I didn't know them..as did all my neighbors.

On our land, it's not hunters who are littering. The perps are what the left calls "immigrants" who are leaving behind plastic water bottles, empty backpacks, cans, duct-taped tarps and garbage of all types. Mr. Trump's wall can't be built soon enough for me.

Bill Quimby

quote:

Originally posted by Blacktailer:
My land is posted for my own protection. With the sue happy times we live in some idiot might go out and hurt himself, sue me and end up the owner.

agree

I post all of my places, this past Sunday I ran a group of people off of a creek that runs thru one of my places...they had to climb thru a fence along the road and did so next to a "Posted" sign. When I busted them they said they didn't see the sign and one of the guys got mouthy until I told him I had called the Game Warden, that got them moving so I took a picture of their truck and license plate and texted it to the local Game Warden. He will watch for that truck. I went back to the spot today to clean up the beer cans and KFC trash and string new wire where they had cut the fence, rat bastards.

If we owned land in Texas, I'd probably post it, too. With so little public land, non-posted land would attract way too many people, including a certain percentage of vandals and no-good-niks.

In Arizona, however, more than 80 percent of our land is in some form of public or tribal ownership. As an outdoor writer who has spent more than half century campaigning to keep our state's public lands open to public access, I would be a hypocrite if I posted my own properties.

Our cabin in Arizona's White Mountains borders national forest land on two sides, and across our little creek is a popular hiking trail. We have a sign on our gate that says it is private property, but dozens of path walkers walk right past it and use our driveway to access the trail instead of the forest service trailhead every summer.

My wife and I enjoy watching them (especially young families with little kids) from our cabin's deck above the driveway, and we wave back at them.

I hated to do it, but I hung the sign on advice of a lawyer friend. It makes me feel better to know under Arizona law our two acres are not legally posted against trespassing. One sign at an entry point does not do it.

Bill Quimby

No need to post or fence in Colorado. It is up to the person to know where he/she is. That said, if it isn't fenced people tend to wander at will. The mt. bikers, atvers, horse riders and neighbors cows will act like they have a right to be there. Fencing in rough country is seriously hard work and expensive, even if you are doing the work your self. The real issue is way too many people and not enough places to play.
C.G.B.

quote:

I post all of my places, this past Sunday I ran a group of people off of a creek that runs thru one of my places...they had to climb thru a fence along the road and did so next to a "Posted" sign. When I busted them they said they didn't see the sign and one of the guys got mouthy until I told him I had called the Game Warden, that got them moving so I took a picture of their truck and license plate and texted it to the local Game Warden. He will watch for that truck. I went back to the spot today to clean up the beer cans and KFC trash and string new wire where they had cut the fence, rat bastards.

And that is a classic example of what happens, especially the closer one's land is to larger cities/metropolitan areas. It also happens to city/county and even Corp of Engineers parks around lakes. People trash them out and if they are not patrolled drug activity gets and it becomes unsafe/unhealthy for the Public in general to go there.

I recommend to the folks that sub lease the hunting from my boss, to put the local game warden's phone number on speed dial. One of the good things about living in more rural parts of Texas, and probably other states, in that people become acquainted with not only the locals, but also the vehicles that are "supposed" to be in the area. Also, out here many times if someone is observed driving slowly down a county dirt road, people will stop and ask them if they are looking for a particular place/person.

Here in PA our law enforcement types view trespassing as a nuisance, and not worth their time. As a result, the scofflaw types see posted signs as an invitation to hunt on land where there will be less competition. Contrast this situation to that in Ohio, where leos take trespassing very seriously, and written permission is required and must be shown. We have a huge problem here. Ohio does not.