Good question Frosbit. i am starting to think to myself now as I was told %80-%90 on leopard success on the Save. I sure hope that means 8 or 9 leopards dead out of 10 hunters. I would suspect that it should be like that.

Too bad in a way it is not like it is here in Alberta. Let's say an outfitter I have 10 tags for whitetail. I can only have 10 hunters that year no matter the success of the hunters.

For some reason Mark is getting hammered here. I do not think he is trying to be misleading in any way. His business survives on his honesty. He is also passing on information from outfitters and if that information is not correct then it makes Mark look bad if he passes it on unknowingly. I do not think he would pass misleading info on to us on purpose.
I think we are all jumping to conclusions and we do not know all the info to start judging at his point.

Like any number, to evaluate, one has to know how it was calculated. My guess is that Mark's comment on success ratio was an off the cuff remark. I have no idea whether that number is right or wrong.

It was pretty clear to me that his comment was about the entire Save. That would cover a lot of different safari companies .

Having hunted there the last 2 years and headed there again in October, the areas I hunted are indeed good even great for lion. Zambezi Hunter's quota is small. In the last 3 or 4 years , if my memory is correct , all lion hunters got their lions. They are only one operator in the Save.

Personally , I was not certain if Rich was saving that the PH and safari company were inexperienced in lion hunting or lion hunting in the Save. There is a huge difference.

Some of the comments do bring up another issue. In some cases, unused quota as a result of a hunters failure is resold. Personally,I see no problem with that. On the other hand, i have heard of safari companies overselling lion quota on the assumption that everyone will not get their lions. Personally' that us a pretty scary thing to me. I would hate to be booked with one of those companies.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
Like any number, to evaluate, one has to know how it was calculated. My guess is that Mark's comment on success ratio was an off the cuff remark. I have no idea whether that number is right or wrong.

It was pretty clear to me that his comment was about the entire Save. That would cover a lot of different safari companies .

Having hunted there the last 2 years and headed there again in October, the areas I hunted are indeed good even great for lion. Zambezi Hunter's quota is small. In the last 3 or 4 years , if my memory is correct , all lion hunters got their lions. They are only one operator in the Save.

Personally , I was not certain if Rich was saving that the PH and safari company were inexperienced in lion hunting or lion hunting in the Save. There is a huge difference.

Some of the comments do bring up another issue. In some cases, unused quota as a result of a hunters failure is resold. Personally,I see no problem with that. On the other hand, i have heard of safari companies overselling lion quota on the assumption that everyone will not get their lions. Personally' that us a pretty scary thing to me. I would hate to be booked with one of those companies.

Understood!!

So is 90% the figure of actual hunters or is 90% the figure of success of outfitters and booking agents.

If you know for sure Larry I would love to hear it.

Mark,
You post here, you post your personal info, I prefer not to. You are running your business here, I am not.

As to legitimate questions - what is not legit? You claim 90% success for an operator that has 0% success and little if any experience. A hunter returns from a hunt with no lion and you are re-selling his hunt before he gets his bags unpacked.

You claim there are negotiations going on in the background you are not privy to. Great, you are selling something you may not even have available.

How about this - if you are so sure this is a 90% success area, offer the hunt at $300 daily rate and increase the trophy fee to cover the normal trophy and all other expenses. Get a little skin in the game to ensure Terry Anders etal deliver a decent chance at a lion. No lion, no pay the big rate and no resale to the next guy that can't "finish the deal".

I really struggle with selling unsuccessful quota after a guy has not taken his targeted animal. This is a chance for the operator to double dip or triple dip on his one precious lion permit in the SAVE.

John Barth sells a hunt to hunter A to go with Terry Anders. No lion killed but Barth earns commission, Anders gets everything (baits, daily rate, transfers) but no trophy fee that is paid to the government partially. He and hunter A do not get the lion.

You sell the lion hunt, again. You earn the commission, Anders gets his daily rate and other add ons regardless of success on the lion.

Anders has no experience nor does his outfit. He gets experience from the guys not killing lions and gets paid for it.

I guess it gets sold a third time if the year does not run out or if Anders cannot sell his tag to another operator in the SAVE that has lion skills.

That is not right.

Further, I repeat, if you don't know the facts on an outfit or a deal, shame on you.

If there is another deal in the works on a hunt you are selling - tell the story.

But do not hide behind the wall of "I am just selling the hunt".

All, I am still waiting on some details to come back whether or not I will be going back this year. If I do, I will be bringing in a PH of my choice that is an experienced lion hunter. So I am not ready at this time to give a full report.

I will say that if I wanted to go on a buffalo/plains game hunt Forever African Safaris could support that type of hunt. The place was loaded with buffalo. I would compare accommodations to other companies in the Save. Terry's friend who works for Forever African Safaris Wayne Bartlett and camp manager John Hunt are serious leopard hunters. There are a lot of leopards on Savuli due to the amount of Kopjes that are on the property. There are so many leopards, that the trackers were confused almost daily what was a leopard track and what was a lion track!

But Vinny your math is right on, if the outfitter already made his money on the daily and has told the client it is more important for them to get their lion instead of reselling it for a profit even though your young business needs to make money for your investors(which I heard on multiple occasions), you would think they would not charge full rate to go back. Experienced is gained from the lack of my success.

Larry, I hunted with Zambezi and I wanted to hunt with them again, but they did not have a lion tag available. Being they were on the property next door, I assumed(shame on me) that Forever African Safaris would be set up and run in the same manner as the cats will go between the properties. Having been on 8 safaris now, I would say that Johnny Hulme and Zambezi Hunters is one of the best run operations I have been with. Johnny is an elephant hunting fool with a staff of trackers that is second to none. I will surely be hunting with Johnny again in the future. I have been fortunate and have had such great experiences with many PH's and companies, that my expectations are high as that is what my past experiences have taught me. I wanted to meet up with Johnny when I was there, but due to the lack of a lion, we did not get a chance to.

While there, I had a chance to have lunch with the Leesmay's who manage the Sango camp and their son Brent who I have kept in touch with over the years after he was the PH for a friend of mine on a previous safari. It is too bad he gave up being a PH for the time being as he was one of the good ones. He has been developing a property for about the last 3 years besides Lemco that I believe is about 500,000 acres. They should start hunting it in the next couple of years. It sounds like a spectacular piece of property.

Zambezi is 100% opportunity on their lions from what I understand. They have excellent knowledge about the cats in their area and knowledgable PH's. I heard that one lion was injured on Hammond while I was there and they were looking for it. Not sure if they found it.

I still think the Save is one of those places for lion, and I would believe it is a 90% success rate overall. A well prepared and experienced PH and trackers will make or break you.

quote:

There are so many leopards, that the trackers were confused almost daily what was a leopard track and what was a lion track!

Trackers?

Rich:

I am sorry things did not work out on the lion. Lion hunting is expensive and stressful. These days, getting a lion is by no means a sure thing. My last 63 days in TZ did not result in a lion or even a siting of a fully mature male. I know how you feel.

I am in total agreement with you about ZH. They are a great company. This will be the 3rd year in a row that have gone with them.

Good luck .

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

There are so many leopards, that the trackers were confused almost daily what was a leopard track and what was a lion track!

Trackers?

There is a significant difference between leopard tracks and a lion track. Sounds like the trackers were a part of the problem as well.

quote:

Originally posted by Vinny:
Anders has no experience nor does his outfit. He gets experience from the guys not killing lions and gets paid for it.


What rankles me is that this hunt was sold, then sold again so quickly with such poor facts such as being told- "90%" success was the selling point on a hunt offered by an outfit with no lion experience and no lion success. Mark got a free pass on that part of this deal. Then the first guy gets "that is hunting" and "the lion showed up but could not close the deal". Sounds like the operator sold the hunter his inexperience not his experience. .

Vinny I am not sure where you get your facts from but I would possibly try to ascertain the facts first before you get on your high horse.

With respect to this outfit not having any experience.....that is quite simply not true. Terry himself has several lion to his name as lead PH and several more as support PH. Both John Hunt and Wayne Bartlett have extensive Lion experience as well and together they make up one of the most experienced Lion outfits in the Country.

I beleive that Rich referred to this being the first Lion hunt on Savuli and Masapas that Terry had done...not Terry's first lion hunt. There is a vast difference.

In addition, I can personally verify that this lion was only sold once. I had a client interested in the same lion but Forever African informed me that Rich had bought the lion and it was off the market and sold. They are defintely not guilty of selling one lion tag more than once.With respect to it being re-offered, I dont beleive that there was any dishonesty involved and I am sure that Rich will end up going back to hunt the lion again.

Clearly there have been some differences between Rich and Terry, however as Rich has stated, they are in the process of working out a deal. Instead of making wild accusations and inaccurate statements why dont we allow the two parties to sort their issues out and wait for a full report from Rich and possibly a statement from Forever African and Terry Anders before taking sides. I know Terry well and have met Rich and I do not beleive either man would condone any form of character bashing at this point in time .

You however seem to have a personal interest in this. Do you personally have a problem with either Terry Anders or Forever African, or possibly with Mark Young?? If you do , come out and say it rather than making silly comments about peoples experience that simply are not true. There are several AR members who can vouch for Terry's experience and I am sure several who will vouch for Rich......so as I said earlier, lets wait for the full report ,all the facts and then make a decision.

quote:

wild accusations and inaccurate statements

Sounds like Vinny

Zim,
I have no axe to grind with any of the parties. I do not know any of the parties involved.
My issue is the selling of a hunt immediately following an unsuccessful hunt. The hunter stated the PH and outfit do not have lion hunting experience yet he was sold a lion hunt. Mark made his statements that implied they had a lion "come to the party" but that it was not shot - again implying a problem of some sort. The hunter then says a deal was offered him to come back. Then the hunt is marked "sold" by Mr. Young. Then it is posted that someone else sold the original hunt and that Mr. Young has no knowledge of the deal or the new deal.

My issue is that a hunt is offered. The facts of the area and the deal are not accurate (90% success rates, the hunt may or may not be available, the ph and outfit without lion experience, etc.). Mr. Young seems like a good guy. He works with Adam Clements, I do not think he is an employee, but a commission sales guy. He got testy when pushed on this by asking my experience - which is not the issue here.

Anyway, I just don't think this deal was properly or accurately represented.

I would like to read Rich's hunt report when published.

Zim - you obviously work that area per your website. If you know facts, please share them. Your outfit has a fine reputation from what I can tell.

As to smarterthanu, your name says it all.

Larry

quote:

Originally posted by Vinny:
Zim,
I have no axe to grind with any of the parties. I do not know any of the parties involved.
My issue is the selling of a hunt immediately following an unsuccessful hunt. The hunter stated the PH and outfit do not have lion hunting experience yet he was sold a lion hunt. Mark made his statements that implied they had a lion "come to the party" but that it was not shot - again implying a problem of some sort. The hunter then says a deal was offered him to come back. Then the hunt is marked "sold" by Mr. Young. Then it is posted that someone else sold the original hunt and that Mr. Young has no knowledge of the deal or the new deal.

My issue is that a hunt is offered. The facts of the area and the deal are not accurate (90% success rates, the hunt may or may not be available, the ph and outfit without lion experience, etc.). Mr. Young seems like a good guy. He works with Adam Clements, I do not think he is an employee, but a commission sales guy. He got testy when pushed on this by asking my experience - which is not the issue here.

Anyway, I just don't think this deal was properly or accurately represented.

I would like to read Rich's hunt report when published.

Zim - you obviously work that area per your website. If you know facts, please share them. Your outfit has a fine reputation from what I can tell.

As to smarterthanu, your name says it all.

Vinny you're full of bull.

Available quota after a scheduled hunt is available quota. I left a leopard in '09 still running around in the bush. That cat should have been left to his own devices rather than sold to another hunter? My cat "came to the party," too. He gets a pass from safari hunting after I goof it?

As to the sucess rates, you've questioned them but have confused the posted by Mark rate for the Save and the specific hunt area and have no disputable figures.

I was under the impression that usually more than one booking agent can be offered hunts for sale and this case seems to bear that out. Kinda like real estate. You've not had experience with different offers for the same sale?

You say you don't know any of the parties involved but postulate on Mark, his compensation and your personal assesment of his character?

Of course Mark got testy as you say. You're some anonymous jackass ignorant of the situation throwing internet stones. You don't know shit, everyone else reading this thread knew that from the start and in your last post you acknowledge it.

Vinny, anonymous juvenile ignorant smeers from posters like you are part of the deal I know. I can post threads and pictures of whatever and since Saeed is generous to let us all participate we get to put up with the Vinny's et al that have nothing to add other than their typed out turds.

Well done, you're obnoxious.

Vinny

If you have no axe to grind with either party and are prepared to wait on a FULL report from both parties then my objective has been achieved. My point is simply that instead of trial by internet, I think we should let both parties resolve the issue themselves rather than let it dissolve into a bun fight , from which in all honesty, no one will emerge as a winner.

quote:

Originally posted by zimFrosty:
Vinny

If you have no axe to grind with either party and are prepared to wait on a FULL report from both parties then my objective has been achieved. My point is simply that instead of trial by internet, I think we should let both parties resolve the issue themselves rather than let it dissolve into a bun fight , from which in all honesty, no one will emerge as a winner.

Good point. Although it makes for entertaining reading, this kinda feels like a mountain out of a mole hill.

I am looking forward to the trip report.

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:

quote:

Originally posted by Vinny:
Zim,
I have no axe to grind with any of the parties. I do not know any of the parties involved.
My issue is the selling of a hunt immediately following an unsuccessful hunt. The hunter stated the PH and outfit do not have lion hunting experience yet he was sold a lion hunt. Mark made his statements that implied they had a lion "come to the party" but that it was not shot - again implying a problem of some sort. The hunter then says a deal was offered him to come back. Then the hunt is marked "sold" by Mr. Young. Then it is posted that someone else sold the original hunt and that Mr. Young has no knowledge of the deal or the new deal.

My issue is that a hunt is offered. The facts of the area and the deal are not accurate (90% success rates, the hunt may or may not be available, the ph and outfit without lion experience, etc.). Mr. Young seems like a good guy. He works with Adam Clements, I do not think he is an employee, but a commission sales guy. He got testy when pushed on this by asking my experience - which is not the issue here.

Anyway, I just don't think this deal was properly or accurately represented.

I would like to read Rich's hunt report when published.

Zim - you obviously work that area per your website. If you know facts, please share them. Your outfit has a fine reputation from what I can tell.

As to smarterthanu, your name says it all.

Vinny you're full of bull.

Available quota after a scheduled hunt is available quota. I left a leopard in '09 still running around in the bush. That cat should have been left to his own devices rather than sold to another hunter? My cat "came to the party," too. He gets a pass from safari hunting after I goof it?

As to the sucess rates, you've questioned them but have confused the posted by Mark rate for the Save and the specific hunt area and have no disputable figures.

I was under the impression that usually more than one booking agent can be offered hunts for sale and this case seems to bear that out. Kinda like real estate. You've not had experience with different offers for the same sale?

You say you don't know any of the parties involved but postulate on Mark, his compensation and your personal assesment of his character?

Of course Mark got testy as you say. You're some anonymous jackass ignorant of the situation throwing internet stones. You don't know shit, everyone else reading this thread knew that from the start and in your last post you acknowledge it.

Vinny, anonymous juvenile ignorant smeers from posters like you are part of the deal I know. I can post threads and pictures of whatever and since Saeed is generous to let us all participate we get to put up with the Vinny's et al that have nothing to add other than their typed out turds.

Well done, you're obnoxious.

If your surgeon quotes a success percentage of certain surgery, would you want the quote to reflect the % he has done successfully or the % others have done successfully?

Because one is rather meaningless and the other is very very relevant.


The success statement in the original ad was either very poorly worded or very cleverly worded.

Duck,
Thank you. You read my original post and intent.
I think that original ad was misleading. Second, the details of the original hunt lead me to think differently than the hunter stated.

Then I get word-whipped by a couple of internet wizards. So much for holding people accountable here.

quote:

Then I get word-whipped by a couple of internet wizards. So much for holding people accountable here.

Welcome to the internet, where everyone is invited.

quote:

Originally posted by Vinny:
Then I get word-whipped by a couple of internet wizards. So much for holding people accountable here.

Seriously!!?? I mean... Serioulsy!!???

Being naive is not a virtue in the real world of the internet. Oh well....

quote:

Originally posted by Vinny:
Being naive is not a virtue in the real world of the internet. Oh well....

Neither is being dense. I encourage you to go back and re-read all your posts on this thread and then perhaps you will appreciate the irony of your previous post.

quote:

Originally posted by Duckear:
If your surgeon quotes a success percentage of certain surgery, would you want the quote to reflect the % he has done successfully or the % others have done successfully?

Because one is rather meaningless and the other is very very relevant.


The success statement in the original ad was either very poorly worded or very cleverly worded.

As a surgeon I'd say you're off a little bit. A comparison to personal rate and national rates would be more meaningful.

quote:

Originally posted by cable68:

quote:

Originally posted by Duckear:
If your surgeon quotes a success percentage of certain surgery, would you want the quote to reflect the % he has done successfully or the % others have done successfully?

Because one is rather meaningless and the other is very very relevant.


The success statement in the original ad was either very poorly worded or very cleverly worded.

As a surgeon I'd say you're off a little bit. A comparison to personal rate and national rates would be more meaningful.

Really? As a surgeon, I'd say I'm spot on.

My intent of "% others have done" vs personally done was a national vs personal record.

Gotcha, one needs to know both to compare. Like many might run away from someone who had a 50% 5 yr survival rate on Whipple's, when instead they should be running to that guy.

Maybe this should go in the hunt reports area, but I thought it was appropriate given the prior posts. After hunting around the world and hunting with some of the finest outfitters and PH's in their respective areas, my last hunt proved to me that you only hunt with the best of the best who have the knowledge and experience in their area. It is a huge commitment of time and money and from this point on, I will only hunt with people that have proven themselves time and time again. Hunting is hunting and is not guaranteed, but you can always improve your odds by going with people with proven track records. I know nothing is guaranteed, but I was guaranteed a lion at SCI Reno by Terry Anders as this was going to be my last lion hunt. I was told the property had many mature lions on it. A lion in the Save is about as guaranteed as you can get, but you have to hunt with people that have a proven track record. What I signed up for and was sold on is not what I received.

I have hunted lion only once before with Mark Vallaro of Chifuti in the valley and was successful on a mangie lion and wanted a big full maned lion. I learned a lot from Mark about lion hunting and I think his success rate speaks volumes about his ability to connect on mature male lions. I am by no means an expert, but I have hunted enough to know what is right and what is wrong. I try to live by the motto "don't guide the guide", it has worked well for me in the past and there is a reason you hire them, they are the experts.

I have decided not to go back to Savuli to hunt lion this year. Terry did come back and offer me the same discounted hunt that was offered by ACST. After some consideration he came back and offered me a lower rate with Pete Barnhardt(one of my 2 choices as Johnny Hulme of Zambezi was not available) as the professional hunter. I have all the faith in the world that Pete and I would have gotten it done as he is a successful lion hunter with the track record to prove it. With what I was going to have to spend and the limited animals I had on license, it made more sense to look elsewhere in pursuit of my dream lion.

Part of going back was that I had to sign an agreement stating that I would not speak about my hunt on Savuli or Terry Anders in any manner. I chose not to take the deal and I am going to share the details of my hunt. I had asked to be charged for a buff/plainsgame hunt as that is all I really got. We chased lion, but due to mistakes on the part of the PH, we were not successful. I did my part by working hard, shooting straight, and paying the bill.

I have decided to hunt this October with Mike Fell of Danny McCallum in pursuit of a big lion. I am not sure if I will get a lion, but I do know I will get a good hunt and Mike will work his tail off for me, as he is a gentleman and a great lion hunter.

I wish whoever pursues a lion on Savuli or Masapas with Terry Anders the best of luck. I hope that Terry has learned from his mistakes on my hunt. I do think that Terry had the best intentions on the hunt at the beginning, but his lack of experience lion hunting contributed greatly to our failure. I also believe that after it was done, Terry saw this opportunity as a way to profit. Zim Frosty mentioned that Terry, Wayne, and John had lion experience. I enjoyed my time time with Duncan in camp, but I am not sure that is correct. Everything I was told was that Wayne has close to 100 leopards to his name and John is also way up there, but they both had very little lion experience. Wayne felt a cat was a cat and I would not hesitate to hunt leopard with Wayne or John Hunt in the future, as I do believe they are experts with leopard. Wayne is so focused on leopard it became a daily joke that he would say "we are going to get that leopard"(I do think he was playing with me at the end, and it was good fun) I do think without the input of John Hunt and Wayne Bartlett we would not have gotten as close as we did. It has been many years since Terry has hunted lion and most of his lion experience from what he shared with me was learning their patterns during his time spent in Hwange doing photographic safaris. To me this is different than learning how to properly hunt lion. If you look at Forever Africa's website, their main business is photo safaris, but they are getting more and more into hunting after becoming a partner at the Savuli Ranch.

http://www.foreverafricansafaris.com/

There were several other factors that played into my hunt. Terry had a visit from a Zimbabwean who was there to become his partner and had a letter from a government agency informing Terry of his new partnership. This man visited camp for 4-5 days throughout the hunt and it made Terry very nervous and uncomfortable as he did not know what the future held. Having this man around was not part of the deal of having camp to myself. Terry did not ask him to leave and it made me uncomfortable on several occasions that I skipped a few meals(not that I dont need to skip a few).

From what I was told Terry is a 10% owner in the Savuli Ranch property and it is very important to him to make money for his investors. It showed, as very little had been put into the antiquated camps and the lack of planning that had gone into my hunt.

Terry's tracker from the last 10 years had disappeared and he was hunting with a new tracker. The group did not have a good sense of working with one another. I have seen some phenomenal trackers that were A+ tracking teams. This group was average to below average. My cameraman(Scott (an ex PH) from Hannes Pienar productions) and I were finding spoor when the trackers would lose tracks and it happened more than once.

We should have shot the cat we were after on the 3rd night on the safari, but the light that was placed in the tree was pointed directly down onto the bait, so it was in the lions eyes when it fed. When the light was turned on like light coming down from heaven, it was so bright that the cat was gone before it was light enough for the video camera to catch it. On this 3rd night, the light cord that went back to our blind was put at about 3'off the ground. When I inquired during set up if the cord should go in the tree, I was told it the cat would never walk in that direction. Well about a half hour after he saw the lights coming down from heaven he headed back towards our blind, pulling the cord and having us think he was coming into the blind. Terry knew a mistake was made at this point with the direction the light was pointed.

We continued to hang and check baits at Savuli. We did not record any other lion activity at that time. Terry had said multiple cats were on the property, but we could not get evidence if there was. We had one camera that worked part of the time because in order to save batteries, when the trail cam died, half the batteries were replaced and didn't take pictures of any male lions that had supposedly visited. We got pics of lioness, leopards, and hyenas, but no other male lions. There was another trail camera in camp, but he did not know how to use it. Trying to figure out gear and cheaping out on batteries on my safari is not the time to do it. Not that a camera would have made a difference, but that was part of the deal and could have helped identify mature male lions.

The deal I made in Reno was Terry was supposed to pre bait for 10 days prior to my arrival and have cat footage on camera. Amazingly none the baits that were hung 10 days prior to my arrival were hit by anything. Before I left, I was asked for trail cam pics, but never received any. As time went on, I doubted that baits were hung, but I was charged for them. Hanging baits over a 10 day period in a lion rich area and not having any hits didn't seem right. Either they were not hung or not hung in an area where there had been lion activity. I do know that there was male that came through camp on several occasions and made his presence known, but we never got him on bait in 10 days of prebaiting and 16 days of hunting. 26 days with bait in the air, and only 1 cat on bait.

I knew that some people called lions in on the Save, but Terry did not have a proper call as they cost a lot of money. A friend of his in Bulawayo had one, but it did us no good on the ranch. Terry did have a 1990's boom box with a CD player and a lion call that could be heard 20 yards away. This was a joke. One of the camp staff did have a truck with a modified stereo that was pretty loud that we did try one night, but didn't get any action. About day 13 when desperation was setting in, Dusty the biologist on Sango had been wanting to call lion as part of their survey process. Terry did not know the proper technique of calling in a lion, and asked if we could join Dusty in his lion calling. If I got to bring my rifle. This idea was quickly shot down by Dusty and I don't blame him. This was not another properties issue. In my opinion, if calling works and is used regularly, an outfitter/PH should be prepared to pull out all the stops on a hunt of this magnitude. This was not the case, as dollars were the main concern.

There were lions that were killing cattle on another area in the Save, Masapas that Terry had the lease on and we could take a lion off of that. Terry had been told there was a large cat down there, but we only went down there halfway into the hunt. Terry did not want to go down there much as it was an hour ride and burned a lot of gas. I am sorry, but I signed up for a lion hunt and if it meant we burned all the gas in Zimbabwe, so be it. We did go down and spend a night down there after some lion had killed cattle, sat on them for the evening, but they did not come back. They supposedly came back the 2nd night, but we did not pursue those cats.

We could not hang bait down there as people would steal the bait. That is true as the place was thick with squatters. What could have been done is purchase 10 donkeys as prebait and hang them as the squatters would not eat donkey. This did not happen. Poor planning and lack of execution.

Our big cat from the 3rd night did come back later in the hunt and we sat on him building a double blind this time. He came in around 11, we snuck in put a torch on him and he spooked. He was back at 11:30 and we snuck back in, hit him with the light again, and he vanished. About 2AM, I heard leaves crunching behind me and something sniffing. I sat up with my 470NE in hand and pointed it at the opening. He came to the opening of the blind, stuck his head in and was about 3' from the end of the barrel, but could not see what I was aimed at. I played the scenario out in my head and decided I could shoot him and he would die, shoot him and would be injured and would come into the blind or he would go away. I chose not to shoot and we all made it out of there unharmed. I have played this scenario out every day in my head since it has happened, but if I had to do it over again not knowing what I was aiming at, I would not have taken the shot.

Well we stayed in that blind for another 3 days as they felt he knew we were there, but was not scared of us. We were armed with red lights, but did not get an opportunity to use it on the lion. We were going to try the light again in the tree and place it in a different angle, but it broke. I thought we should have moved the bait and the blind as he knew we were there, but it didn't happen and we kept beating our head into the wall until my last night at Savuli.

An experienced PH, Craig(who was a very nice guy) told Terry that he should move the bait and build a tree blind. We did and sat that night. We were going to use the tree light which Craig suggested, but it broke and we had to use a spot light, the same one that did not work previously. He walked on the road 100 yards from us we found out later, but avoided us. Hunt over!


I like to judge a hunt as an experience I would want to do again. I do want to hunt lion again and I am going to, but I would not go back with Terry Anders and Forever African Safaris. I am in business and understand the need to make a profit, but I do not understand taking short cuts when a client signs up for something and they don't get what they were promised. There was no need to cheapen out on gas, not use new batteries in trail cams, not prebait as agreed to, not having properly prepared trackers in place, not having a caller ready to use, not having a working reastat light and a backup if the first one failed.

I think one of my favorite memories is when I was told we could not hang the eland that I shot for bait as it was wonderful camp meat. Imagine my shock when Terry was super happy about selling the eland meat to the local butcher and the profit they were getting for it. Lets see I paid a trophy fee on an animal, can't use it for bait, but they sell it? Makes no sense to me. Yes I did mistakenly shoot a cow after my first shot into the bull and I could not use that as bait either, assuming that it was part of the sale.

This safari was the complete opposite of what I experienced in Masailand lake Natron with TAWICO last year and my safari the year prior with Johnny Hulme of Zambezi Hunters.

I was in touch via email and sat phone to John Barth of Adventure Unlimited while I was over there alerting him of these issues. Unfortunately things did not come together as I was stuck there and had to deal with it.

If I got my lion on this trip, would I go back? The answer is no. I would go to Zambezi Hunters and one of their ranches as they run a much better operation. There are definitely better operators and camps in the Save to go with.

Am I bitter. Yes. I feel my time was wasted to a point as I chose to hunt with a PH that was not prepared. Do I blame myself for not holding out to hunt with a more experienced outfit, yes.

As poorly as things went, not everything on the trip was bad. I did take a 44.5" buff, Nyala, several blue wildebeest(1 at 130 yards with the 470), zebra, Livingstone Eland, and a giraffe with the 470. Unfortunately these were not my main trophies I was after.

So now I off to Tanzania in pursuit of a big lion!

I am going to give it another shot in October this year and I know I will be hunting with the right people.

Rich,

Sounds like a disco. Who was the DJ?

Rich,

Let me get this straight...you let the Lion walk because your video man couldn't get footage? If that's the case that is on you.

Trailcameras?

Donkeys?

Prebaiting?

Why not hunt Lion with TAWICO?

Rungwa Ikili is one of best lion areas in Africa.

Jeff

Bunduki,

No I did not wait for the cameraman. The camera was rolling before the light was turned on. The lion split so fast that it was gone before it was light enough for the camera to catch it.

TAWICO did not have a lion available this year and with the pressure that is out there on lion hunting, I wanted to hunt lion this year. I had hoped to go with Zambezi, but they did not have a permit available to me, so I hunted next door to Sango.

Rungwa is a great area and I am looking forward to going to Lukwati with Mike. He will be done there for the prior 2 hunts and will hopefully have an idea of what cats are in the area and what movement is like.

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Bunduki:
Rich,

Let me get this straight...you let the Lion walk because your video man couldn't get footage? If that's the case that is on you.

Trailcameras?

Donkeys?

Prebaiting?

Why not hunt Lion with TAWICO?

Rungwa Ikili is one of best lion areas in Africa.

Jeff

Rungwa can be good, no doubt. But without question, if I were after a good lion, I would take Mike Fell & "Lukwati" over all of the Rungwa, anytime!

quote:

When the light was turned on like light coming down from heaven, it was so bright that the cat was gone before it was light enough for the video camera to catch it.

quote:

He came in around 11, we snuck in put a torch on him and he spooked. He was back at 11:30 and we snuck back in, hit him with the light again, and he vanished. About 2AM,

quote:

No I did not wait for the cameraman. The camera was rolling before the light was turned on. The lion split so fast that it was gone before it was light enough for the camera to catch it.

Ah yes, hunting cats in the Save, It is important that a person knows as much as possible about an area and hunt conditions before paying their money.

Rich

All I can say is that your account of the entire episode is completely one sided. Your entitled to your opinions but quite frankly the fact that you deliberately leave out certain factors which might portray you in a bad light shows that you do not have, nor did you ever have any intention of ever giving Terry or Savuli a fair shake.

I am sure that Terry will issue some form of statement but knowing Terry and his professional approach to his clients and his operation, I also have no doubt that he will not enter into an internet debate with you over the hunt.

You mention a new tracker. The "new tracker" that you mention has over 15 years of tracking experience as a lead tracker. Yes he has just started with Terry as Lead tracker, but that does not mean he is not experienced by any stretch of the imagination.I am sorry but knowing the tracker well and his abilities, I would suggest that you are off the mark on that issue.

As for the lion splitting so fast the camera couldnt catch it, almost every PH in the Save will tell you that the cats are light shy and normally dont hang around, but that perseverance will normally pay dividends . In your case sticking with a bait that was being repeatedly hit may not have resulted in a lion in the salt, but it does not mean that it was the wrong option, especially if none of the other baits had been recently hit.

You mention the prescence of the new partner. Given Zimbabwes history with war vets this was indeed an unfortunate incident but it is not one that Terry or anyone else could do anything about. Short of shooting him what could they have done......Terry handled this as best he could. You say he could have asked him to leave...sure and perhaps he could ask Robert to step down.
You mention the fact that Terry sold the Eland to the local Butcher. This is not true. The carcass was still in the cold room at Mokore several days after you left. The fact that had shot Zebra, buffalo , buffalo cow, giraffe ,several wildebeast etc etc simply meant that there was no need to hang the eland as the baits hanging were still good. There is nothing sinister or underhanded about that. Every operator I know will try and keep eland for camp meat.

You make mention of the antiquated camps and not spending any money on upkeep etc. You and I sat in a newly refurbished dining room and the building and upgrades to the camp are plain for everyone to see. Savuli does not try to compete with the ;likes of Ingwe camp or Malilangwe and as a result you do not pay the daily rates that they charge, but it is still extremely comfortable and the clients are well looked after. To further support this, i will tell you that Terry asked me to make a special trip down with yoghurt and muesli and extra diesel for your hunt .500km just to ensure that you had what you wanted for breakfast. That doesnt sound like someone who scrimps and scrounges on the way he treats his clients

I have also received PMs from a few people following your first post with comments regarding other hunts . All I can say is that I think you should be a little more forthright and honest before you rubbish the team and the experience that you had.Fair is fair Rich and whilst I have no problem with anyone airing their views and opinions, I do think you could be a little more balanced in your appraisal.

As the song goes (in the American version, anyway):

Wimoweh, wimoweh, wimoweh, wimoweh
Wimoweh, wimoweh, wimoweh, wimoweh
Wimoweh, wimoweh, wimoweh, wimoweh
Wimoweh, wimoweh, wimoweh, wimoweh

Hush my darling, don't fear my darling
The lion sleeps tonight
Hush my darling, don't fear my darling
The lion sleeps tonight

There will be no winner in this debate.

'nough has been said already IMHO.