Gentlemen,

Some of you don't seem to bother to read our rules at the top of this forumn. And continue to post offers which are lacking in all the relevant details.

We have put up this forum for the benefit of both you and your prospective clients.

We don't ask anything in return, except that you post ALL the details of the hunt.

Such as:

Price
Species on offer
Date
Location
Contact details including a phone number.
Who is going to be the PH
In addition to what I have as ked for on my post at the top of this forum.

I am going to start making a note of those outfitters that do not post all the details, and I have to deleted their offers.

If I have to delete 3 offers from any one outfitter, the outfitter will not be allowed to post any more hunts on AR.

It has gotten quite bad lately, that I have to deleted some offers almost on a daily basis.

Saeed,
I had posted a 2011 Alaska Brown Bear offer here a couple weeks ago. It had 360 some views and no responses. Last night at 11 pm I listed in in another format with all the details in conjunction with the available dates i listed on the first one and you deleted it. I am really baffled at why ???

Also it met all criteria you request and the 2 posts wee connected to each other. We are trying to offer hunts on here and take suggestions of other members as to hunting with trophy fee's instead of flat rates.

Please explain what I missed

Doug,

You must have missed something, otherwise your offer would not have been deleted.

It might have been because no guide was mentioned.

I am asking for all these details for the simple reason that prospective clients do not have to ask questions to decide if they wish to go on that hunt.

We are the outfitter and guides.

It gave dates and dollars, everything.

I apologize if it didnt meet your criteria but I was sure it did as the original post sat on here fro 2 weeks, This reply post was just listed in a different format dollar wise.

Oh well sorry

Doug,

Please mention that you are the guide, in addition to all the other points I mentioned in my two threads at the top of this forum.

As I have mentioned before, my only interest in this is that all the relevant details are posted with the offer.

Thank you for the post. The information you require to post here would have helped me often. Disclosing the guide's name is critical as I have been burned when an outfit gets busy and hires a kid from town to fill in on an important hunt.

Saeed, Thanks for making this available. I hope to never need to use it but your minimal rules certainly seem fair and clear enough.

quote:

Originally posted by twoseventy:
Disclosing the guide's name is critical as I have been burned when an outfit gets busy and hires a kid from town to fill in on an important hunt.

This doesn't give the outfit much credit - pulling a stunt like that confirms its your money and only your money that has generated an interest in doing business with you.

A reputable and honest outfitter would not sell you the hunt if he could not provide you with a PH whose qualifications did not meet the bill.

This is another variation of the countless scams which are going on: peddling an elephant hunt where there are none or hardly any and of which there are no shooters; selling you a Lion tag when the quota has been exhausted and the PH is "instructed" to lead the client on a merry chase, etc.

Fojo,
I have bought a discounted here and it was as advertised. I would suggest - do your homework, check references and have a good time.

The vast majority of PH's, guides and outfitters are hard working, honest folks --- but the few who are not can certainly make life interesting.
DO YOU HOMEWORK AND THOROUGHLY CHECK REFERENCES

Saeed,

I fully understand wanting all the details to be on the ads but there is no way to be able to name guides or PH's. Staff changes, scheduling and unforseen circomstances make this impossible particularly on a forward booking. It would be dishonest to offer Joe Blow as the guide/PH without knowing for sure they would be available for that year and for that specific hunt.

Mark

Saeed, if I may be so bold as to suggest another rule, how about that someone may only post offers when he/ she has been a member for a year, or have 50 posts to his credit?

It seems like there is an upsurge of outfitters just posting hunts, but not willing to stick around and actually contribute to making this site great.

Gentlemen,

I am open to suggestions as to what format offered hunts are posted.

Can I ask you all to give me suggestions please?

We have had quite an upsurge of hunts being offered, some with no details whasoever. Except the animal hunted and a price.

Let me know what format should we adopt?

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Saeed,

I fully understand wanting all the details to be on the ads but there is no way to be able to name guides or PH's. Staff changes, scheduling and unforseen circomstances make this impossible particularly on a forward booking. It would be dishonest to offer Joe Blow as the guide/PH without knowing for sure they would be available for that year and for that specific hunt.

Mark

Thnak You Mark!

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Saeed,

I fully understand wanting all the details to be on the ads but there is no way to be able to name guides or PH's. Staff changes, scheduling and unforseen circomstances make this impossible particularly on a forward booking. It would be dishonest to offer Joe Blow as the guide/PH without knowing for sure they would be available for that year and for that specific hunt.

Mark

Mark, I could be wrong but I think what he really means is agents offering hunts should give the identity of the outfitter conducting the hunt. I think working out if you want a particular PH would be when the negotiations actually begin with the prospective client.

It would be great if there were a form posted to use as a guideline.

If I'm wrong, please ignore my post.

Posted by Russ Gould on a different thread:

"Changing the PH is probably not grounds for a lawsuit, unless the contract specifies person A, and if it does, then the outfitter was stupid to sign that contract. PHs are hired hands, they come and go, they get injured, they get jailed (this once happened to me), some get killed. If you guarantee a named PH you are a fool."

gotogirl3,

My assumption was the same as yours but that is not what Saeed wrote. Folks need to understand that as Russ Gould said "If you guarantee a named PH you are a fool". What we do offer is wording such as "Joe Blow will be your PH if no unforseen circumstances prevent him from doing the hunt".

I also agree with Karl that someone completely unknown on AR just dropping in and throwing up an ad without any effort to make a contribution seems somehow inappropriate.

Mark

I am waiting for suggestions?

I don't know how the coding etc works on the AR site but I'd have thought it'd only take a few changes on the 'new discussion' section to change it to an e-form that requires all fields to be completed before it can be published.

Once the form code is created once, it shouldn't need any more attention.

Just an idea and hope you don't think I'm interfering!

Steve "Shakari" Robinson



I thought he had a good idea here.
Thanks!

Saeed

I'd suggest making the outfitter name the guide or PH (if they dont want to) is unfair to the outfitter and the client. I know in some circumstances it may be very useful (African DG) but on a world hunting scale I dont think it useful as it asks for a commitment that that outfitter and client may not want, especially when hunts are being sold well in advance.

I also think it is entirely appropriate for advertising outfitters and agents to have a minimum post requirement.

Cheers
Matt

Well, concerning the "what contributions has an outfitter/agent made to this site" line of thought. I think that's nuts...and any number of post requirements is even more nuts. I can post on her 200+ times a day if I feel like it. Doesn't mean I'm helping the site. Also just cause you post your opinions on here...doesn't mean you're doing any good for the site.

I think Saeed, set up this as a free forum for all...not just the Agents who post and crap on anyone who offers a hunt that they don't approve of... I think we see more hunts being torn to pieces on here than anything else. As soon as anyone posts a hunt...people are quick to call them a cheat, overpriced..whatever! thats what needs to be stopped.

I'm all for Saeed's request for basic info to be met...but all the other stuff is nuts. And Ph name, really, are we going to start giving the license plate numbers of the trucks we will use as well?

Saeed,
Would it be possible for the site to have a "form" that is filled out by the advertiser, only if it is 100% complete will it post.... not sure if this is possible, but would streamline and make all offers easy to follow. oOf course leave a paragraph at the end for any special language/message the advertiser would want to add that may not be contained within one of the "boxes".

Saeed,

I like the Idea of a standard form. As with the State of Alaska we now have a very detailed contract between client and hunter listing the outline of the hunt, What is included in the price, Are there any Trophy fee's associated with any or additional animals available.
Problem I see here is there are TRUE booking agents on this forum that represent the outfitter. In what ever capacity, but you seldoom or ever know until booked their outfitter is.
Also I would like to mention in Alaska we have Regsitered Guides and Asst Guides who bith take part and conduct hunts in the field. We are fortunate in the fact we have a very talented staff that have been with us for years, but also base whick client will hunt with whom on many different criterias, such as physical ability of the client, personalities and how well they fit together, goals of the client, and an overall of many factors. Once we get to know the client through phone conversations and other items we pair them with the guide.
I would like to propose the following format:

State or Counrty of Hunt location:
Primary Animal to be hunted:
Price;
How Many Actual Hunting days:
Lodging, Meals, Guide fee's included:
Any Trophy Fee's associated with hunt offered:
Available Dates:
Optional Animals available for harvest:
Trophy fee for this/ these animals:
Any Additional costs not included in hunt price:
Are you a Booking Agent:
Are you the outfitter:
Outfitter Name:
References Available;
Website:
Outfitter Contact:


Thanks
Doug Klunder
NWA Outfitters
www.nwaoutfitters.com
727-919-6005

Doug,

Thank you.

This is a star.

Anyone else with more suggestions?

quote:

Originally posted by Marabou Slasher:
Saeed,

I like the Idea of a standard form. As with the State of Alaska we now have a very detailed contract between client and hunter listing the outline of the hunt, What is included in the price, Are there any Trophy fee's associated with any or additional animals available.
Problem I see here is there are TRUE booking agents on this forum that represent the outfitter. In what ever capacity, but you seldoom or ever know until booked their outfitter is.
Also I would like to mention in Alaska we have Regsitered Guides and Asst Guides who bith take part and conduct hunts in the field. We are fortunate in the fact we have a very talented staff that have been with us for years, but also base whick client will hunt with whom on many different criterias, such as physical ability of the client, personalities and how well they fit together, goals of the client, and an overall of many factors. Once we get to know the client through phone conversations and other items we pair them with the guide.
I would like to propose the following format:

State or Counrty of Hunt location:
Primary Animal to be hunted:
Price;
How Many Actual Hunting days:
Lodging, Meals, Guide fee's included:
Any Trophy Fee's associated with hunt offered:
Available Dates:
Optional Animals available for harvest:
Trophy fee for this/ these animals:
Any Additional costs not included in hunt price:
Are you a Booking Agent:
Are you the outfitter:
Outfitter Name:
References Available;
Website:
Outfitter Contact:


Thanks
Doug Klunder
NWA Outfitters
www.nwaoutfitters.com
727-919-6005

Another idea if I may is that all hunting outfitter members and booking agents put most of the above info into their signature.


Are you a Booking Agent:
Are you the outfitter:
Outfitter Name:
References Available;
Website:
Outfitter Contact:


So this will come up at each post.i.e This will come with a karma status and will let you offer hunts.i.e
(1)one of us,general member.
(2)Hunting outfitter /Professional hunter,(this can be veified with paperwork sent in etc)
(3)hunting agent.
ie only the latter 2 can post hunt offers.

Having a certain number of posts might be irrelavant but it shows that Jo soap even in passing and putting in random posts has put in some time and had a chance to see what this site is all about. He must earn the right to offer hunts here.

The other info is normally put in to sell and describe the hunt.
State or Counrty of Hunt location:
Primary Animal to be hunted:
Price;
How Many Actual Hunting days:
Lodging, Meals, Guide fee's included:
Any Trophy Fee's associated with hunt offered:
Available Dates:
Optional Animals available for harvest:
Trophy fee for this/ these animals:
Any Additional costs not included in hunt price:

Again with a karma status the above info will be in by people who post regularly and will know how to post to sell hunts.

this will minimize web construction in my mind.

IF the form policy is adopted i ask that if at all possible space is made to post photos in the offer. picture paints a 1000 words

thank you for your time chaps

Saeed,

Doug's suggestions look fine but I would ad that it be clear that "References available" should be a Yes or No answer. Some folks will be happy to be a reference but they may not be happy about having their contact info blasted across the Internet.

Mark

I suggest additions as in bold below. I don't think it should take one making an offer 10 minutes to fill it out. Heck, they could just copy and paste a form and keep it on their computer for when they need it.

As to whom the P.H. will be, I can guaran-damn-tee you that I ain't going to Africa to spend a few weeks with someone I don't know (or know of) well. I've bought a pig-in-a-poke before and didn't like what came out of the bag.

State or Counrty of Hunt location:
Name of concession, ranch or wildlife area:
Primary Animal to be hunted:
Price:
How Many Actual Hunting days:
Costs and options, if any, for transport from nearest commercial airport to include charter if necessary:
Lodging description, i.e., lodge, individual chalets, tent camp, ammenities , Meals, Guide fees libations included:
All fees for staff to include guides, cooks, drivers, etc. included:
Is hunting camp and/or hunting area exclusive for duration of hunt:
Any Trophy Fee's associated with hunt offered:
Available Dates:
Optional Animals available for harvest:
Trophy fee for this/ these animals:
Any Additional costs not included in hunt price i.e., dip/pac, VAT, Gov't or conservation fees, taxes, etc. if applicable:
Are you a Booking Agent:
Are you the outfitter or P.H.:
Outfitter/P.H. Name:
P.H.'s name who will actually guide the hunt or reason if not yet available:
References Available, please include AR references, if possible:
Website:
Outfitter Contact:
Additional comments or features of hunt offered:

+1 on the suggestion that there should be a minimum number of posts

I also think the KISS method should be used. Keeping it simple but to the point.

As Judge G eluded too.

Additional costs should be the resposibility of the Bookng agent or outfitter to list. Here in the states we do not have dip/pack and things like that.
I suggest keeping the form detailed but simple and all information must be completed or it does not post.
Simple form, detailed information by whomever is offering the hunt.

Doug Klunder

by the way, what the heck is karma setting or whatever ??

Minimum number of posts only serves to limit competition!

Unfortunately the honorable Harry Selby does not have enough posts to meet the proposed criteria to post a hunt.

Isn't that ironic?


Jim

i like the judges list, but also agree with ochayethenoo on number of posts. it seems like there are quite a few outfitters posting hunts for sale, but have nothing else to offer in other forums. that to me amounts to elcheapo advertising only

It ain't my list. I just added what I'd like included.

As to posts, a couple of months on board and some minimum participation before the first post and/or subsequent posts would be a good idea, but who will be the post policeman?

quote:

Originally posted by butchloc:
i like the judges list, but also agree with ochayethenoo on number of posts. it seems like there are quite a few outfitters posting hunts for sale, but have nothing else to offer in other forums. that to me amounts to elcheapo advertising only

Good suggestions.

I agree that it is not possible to guarantee a specific PH or guide up front.

Even when both parties specify a particular person, and are in 100% agreement, unforeseeable things can and do happen.

It would be better, IMHO, to solicit the information, but leave it open ended. Something like this:

"Who are the available PHs or guides? Can a hunter specify a particular person to act as PH or guide for his hunt, barring unforeseen events?"

As for imposing a minimum post threshold, I am indifferent about that.

Should set it up with all fields being *required fields* to ensure accuracy of all data.

I think we got something here.

Still dont know what the heck Karma setting is. That jjust seems weird to me. Do not limit who can post but make mandatory who is doing the posting by filling in all required fields per the form. Dont discriminate as to whom can post a hunt but verify with information regarding the hunt offered

Doug Klunder

I can't tell you guys how strongly I feel that the conversations about available PHs/guides should be left to the actual hunt negotiations between the agent/outfitter/client. The best and most high profile PH may actually be a very poor choice for a particular client. Where as the older PH that hardly anybody has heard of might be perfect for a certain client.

For awhile I thought this specific Forum for hunt offerings was working. Each ad seemed to not insight a riot of bashing the ad, the country, charters and anything else that popped to mind. It would seem that we now are back to shredding the ads.

If we can come up with a format that will allow all the appropriate information to be clear concerning the hunt and still allow space for legitimate questions about the HUNT offering it would be perfect.

Along that line to me an appropriate comment/question might be what are my trophy expectations for kudu on this hunt. IMO inappropriate is a statement like I got screwed in that country in 1986 and I'll nver spend a cent there again. I understand the statement and the angst but it has nothing to do with the ad for the hunt being offered.

If a guy wanted to vent about his misfortune he is welcome to start a seperate thread about it.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
I can't tell you guys how strongly I feel that the conversations about available PHs/guides should be left to the actual hunt negotiations between the agent/outfitter/client. The best and most high profile PH may actually be a very poor choice for a particular client. Where as the older PH that hardly anybody has heard of might be perfect for a certain client.
Mark

Totally agree Mark! Naming a specific PH/Guide for any hunt, especially one well in advance, can be a bad idea. Frankly, the client should take the advice of the outfitter, and hunt with who he recommends, and not who the client picks. JMO.

You guys are missing something that can be very important.

Sometimes, one of the key factors in deciding whether to hunt with someone will be the identity of the PH!

If you book a hunt with a "name" outfitter and you want to hunt with the "name" PH, or any other PH who is a key player in the organization, you had better say so and get it in writing up front.

Or if you want to hunt with the same PH you have hunted with before, again, you had better make that clear.

Barring anything unforeseeable, those arrangements should be honored.

Now, OTOH, I have hunted with PHs that I had never met before the hunt, and I guess I've been lucky, as we always got along very well.

Not so with hunting outside Africa however. African PHs, in my experience, have a higher level of professionalism than guides in other countries.

As for when and where the subject is raised, I would be okay leaving it out of the "ad" requirements, and handling it in direct discussions.

Mark makes some very good points. The vast majority of my clients won't post here or leave hunt reports as they are turned off by so many negative comments, bashing and name calling that often erupts in an inappropriate manner. Most times, it has nothing to do with the original thread. It's very easy to hide behind a screen name but you don't see agents and hunting consultants using false names.
LDK

It seems to me that we’re talking about taking something that should be simple and straight forward and turning in to something very complicated. And the first question that comes to mind is why.

Right now the rules are simple and straight forward, but some don’t follow them. The boss says he’ll delete the posts if they don’t comply with the rules and three strikes and you’re out. Is there really a need for any more than that?

I can understand the attractiveness of a standardized form to a certain extent, but I can also see where it can get out of hand and cause unnecessary complications.

It seems pretty clear that the form suggestions in the thread are primarily aimed at African hunts. What about the rest of the world? I am an agent and represent several family owned ranches in Argentina. There is no outfitter per se. These are working cattle ranches and the owners live there either full or part time during the hunting season. They manage the ranch as well as the hunting.

Language is an issue. Even for the ones that speak English, it is their second language and comprehension is a problem sometimes. That’s one of the reasons that they have me representing them here in the US, so that I can talk to folks and answer their questions. In this case listing the owners contact information would be useless, since they would just forward the inquiry to me to handle any way.

Guides come and go and while some guides also work on the ranches during the off season, there is still a good amount of turnover, so there is no way that I could name them.

While I am fortunate to have many available references, I would never be so presumptuous to list their contact info in public.

Beyond these specific comments it seems to me that for the most part the suggestions for items on the form are good ones, but are best suited to be discussed directly with the agent or outfitter once some initial interest has been generated.

At the end of the day I’m a true believer in the KISS principle, but understand that some things are just too complicated to be kept simple. But not many… Unless there is another goal beyond improving compliance with Saeed’s rules regarding posted hunts, this issue just doesn’t seem to rise to the level that requires all of the suggested complexity.

Michael Malek
Outdoor Adventure Consultants