IDe, I didn't know that I need 1,000 posts to have ethics. It can not be called B&C because to be B&C it need to be free ranging. Archers can use B&C because B&C recognizes animals shot with bows also, it's not just a rifle thing. I don't believe it's a simple mistake for a rancher like this to be using the term B&C as they are in the business of deer and they know that their deer are in no way B&C but that counds better than saying they are SCI.

Crazy, I disagree that this is hunting since I would not call these animals game but instead I would call them lifestock as they are owned by a person and they are fenced in no different than a ranchers cows.

I don't have a problem with someone selling their lifestock and having someone come in and shoot it. But let's call it what it is and that's ranching, not hunting.

Ide, and if you look at the original poster it appears that he has all of 9 posts and all but one are advertising B&C whitetail shoots so it appears that he uses this forum for only advertising his business and repetedly misrepresents his shoots as being for B&C deer.

Go to their web-site. Their gaurentee is that if you don't shoot a deer in 3 days on theor 3000 acres they will let you shoot a buck out of theor "sanctuary". What is a sanctuary? Maybe a breeding pen that you walk up to the deer and shoot it? Tell me again how this is hunting?

FWIW,

The scoreing of a deer by the B&C method is in no way misleading. It is simply saying it scores x amount of points useing the B&C scoreing method. There was a deer killed on the road by a truck that scored 186 B&C so I guess that's should have been scored SCI to determine
how big he was. As I stated before if this hunt is on the whole 3000 acres and the deer aren't coming to a feeder this could be a tough hunt.

Hawkeye

Reelman, in the real world, this operator is just using the same terminology as damn near everyone else. At no point does he state that these bucks can be registered, but every sumbich and his brother-in-law refer to ANY buck, regardless of where it was killed or how in terms of its score based on the Boone & Crockett system, and ANY one can use that system.

As far as the operator refering to it as a hunt, that is his damn business and the people thaty take him up on it can call it a hunt if frthey want too, hell they can call it a circumcision, a barn dance, hell if someone was going to pay me that much money for a stinking arse white tail they could call it the Second Coming of Christ.

As for this thrown in crap about post counts, it does not matter if a person has 1 or 1 million posts. The operator followed the rules in making his post about what he had to offer.

One thing I have learned over the years messing around on forums is that post counts have not one single thing to do with a persons actual knowledge in many cases. If the operator and the folks that take advantage of his services want to call it a hunt it is their damn perogative. If they wantv to refer to the size of the bucks they shoot, in B&C or Pee & Why terms, that is their perogative.

For future reference, if you can comprehend what you are reading, and you see the words Guaranteed and Hunt used in the same sentence, stop reading right there and move along to something else.

To use the B&C terminology one needs to be talkingabout free ranging, wild animals and the original poster knows full well about that since he is in the deer business. He knows that his lifestock can not ever be entered into B&C's book and can't be scored on the B&C system because they are behind a fence. He knows that he should be using SCI instead of B&C but he also knows that B&C is thought of more highly thatn SCI.

quote:

Originally posted by reelman1:
To use the B&C terminology one needs to be talkingabout free ranging, wild animals and the original poster knows full well about that since he is in the deer business. He knows that his lifestock can not ever be entered into B&C's book and can't be scored on the B&C system because they are behind a fence. He knows that he should be using SCI instead of B&C but he also knows that B&C is thought of more highly thatn SCI.

This is pretty nit picky. Boone and Crockett is a form of measurement that is used as a standard for North American big game hunters to describe how big something is. Everybody knows that these penned deer can't be entered in the Boone and Crockett record book but anybody should be free to use their system of measurement if they want to

quote:

Originally posted by reelman1:
To use the B&C terminology one needs to be talkingabout free ranging, wild animals and the original poster knows full well about that since he is in the deer business. He knows that his lifestock can not ever be entered into B&C's book and can't be scored on the B&C system because they are behind a fence. He knows that he should be using SCI instead of B&C but he also knows that B&C is thought of more highly thatn SCI.

A little bit more elbow room , you aren't the only one with an opinion around here-



Your opinions are not rules for the rest of us.



SSR

Reelman, people can say whatever they want to, it is a free country when all is said and done. The word "Hunt" can be interpreted many ways.

Stating someting is a B&C animal just means that the parameters set up by B&C for measuring the animal can be or were used. It happens everyday and it does not mean that the animal qualifies for the B&C records system.

B&C scoring has taken on the same basic concept as the metric system or the Dewey Decimal system, it is an accepted and popoular method used by many individuals daily to express the size of an animal in terms that are fairly common knowledge among the hunting public.

Your continueing harping about the use of the words/letters B&C in connection with the operators listing has gone beyond boring.

CHC



Reelman might just be a member of Captain Obvious' Trope.

Best

GWB

quote:

Originally posted by Cheshire:
Here is another thought. The animals in question belong to the gentleman posting the advert. That means they are his to do with as he pleases. It is the law of supply and demand. I can remember a time in the not to distant past when a 180" whitetail would fetch nearly $15,000 or more. That price is in a bit of decline it seems, could be the economic downturn or market saturation....doesn't matter.

What does matter is the very people that claim to be for "sport hunting" are the ones clammering for his head. So what is your defence of "trophy hunting" vs "meat hunting" vs "subsistance hunting". I have hunted behind a high fence twice here in the States and and twice in South Africa. Three of the four places I had a great time and the hunt was very challenging. One not so much, but you pay your money and you take your chances.

What we as hunters/shooters/killers must always do is stand together. Look at what happened to Fox hunting in England. Gone quite possibly forever. This is the grandest of all sport yet few stood with them in their time of need and it looks as if driven birds are on the anti's list next.

I personally do not want to hunt a $6500 deer I would rather take the same money to South Africa and watch my daughter shoot an Impala and a Blesbok, and a Springbok, and a Warthog, and eat new and wonderful foods, and pass out dolls to little native girls that have never had one. All behind a high fence.

Using this logic, canned lion hunting is acceptable.

quote:

Using this logic, canned lion hunting is acceptable.

It is in South Africa.

Some people don't like it and don't find it anymore acceptable than they do this white tail hunt.

But some folks do and to those folks it is perfectly acceptable.

Not all of us view "Hunting" the same way and that is part of the eternal human condition, the ability to be different and like different things.

Released Lions are legal in SA. Not my thing but I'm sure it helps keep some operators open for business.

Reelman enough! You know full well that using B&C measurments is industry standard. We all know that you do not like high fences....fine you get a gold star. The fact remains the original poster has a product to sell and to let people know the quality/quantity of his product(deer) he used the industry standard.

I have hunted whitetail deer since I was 5, killed my first one when I was 7 with a .410 slug. (a little 5 pt.from 20yds) I'm 48 and have taken hundreds of whitetail in my life and only have 1 that has broken the magical 170 BC, and I killed it quail hunting with a .357 mag I carried to shoot hogs and snakes. Wanna guess which one means more?

I can understand someone taking the hunt in question...ie.. just built a new house and wants a big deer to put on the wall. He could drop $6500 and three days and it would be done. Some people don't have 30 years to put in the effort. If I were just getting into hunting I would consider it also. I have two sons in the Marine Corps, one of them wants to shoot a Buffalo (sorry for reelman I MUST use Bison) he doesn't have a long time to do this and he is not in control of his schedule. Guess what when he comes in we are going to shoot a buffalo behind a fence, and I don't give a damn who's feeling get hurt when we do.
I don't think we want a buffalo herd grazing in the median of I-25 just saying.

Chesire, You're wrong, I don't care if people want to shoot animals behind a fence or not. I wouldn't want to but if you do then have at it and I hope you enjoy yourself. While I wouldn't do it I think a person should have the right to do whatever they want (within reason) with their property, and these deer are the person's property.

B&C is the industry standard for WILD deer, SCI is the industry standard for domesticated deer. The original poster is in the deer selling business and he know that there is a big difference between B&C and SCI. Yes they may be scored the same but the B&C needs to be a wild animal. Just like if someone shot a deer with a rifle and said it scored 150 P&Y. It didn't score P&Y because it wasn't shot with a bow, it would be false. THe original poster is selling his deer which I don't have a problem with but he is flat out lieing about them being B&C, this is a mistake that someone who doesn't know much about whitetails might make but not someone who's business is selling deer.

Crazy, would it be OK for the safari place in SA to advertise a penned lion shoot as being a wild lion even though it was behind a fence?

Dude, give it up...seriously...

reelman-I understand what you are saying and you are correct.When you state that a whitetail deer scores 200 B+C you are saying more than what it's antlers measure. You are also saying that it was hunted under the rules that are required for acceptance into that organizations record book. To use that (B+C) term when referring to deer that were not taken under those rules is to miss-use the terminology.

Some folks do not consider this difference significant and perhaps that says something as well. But using the term where it is not correct is similar to using bad grammer.

Definitely a crime, but not one punishable by death .

Yet another pedantic SCI putdown prig oh my.

quote:

When you state that a whitetail deer scores 200 B+C you are saying more than what it's antlers measure. You are also saying that it was hunted under the rules that are required for acceptance into that organizations record book.

No, you are not. It is a system of measuring, nothing else.

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:

quote:

When you state that a whitetail deer scores 200 B+C you are saying more than what it's antlers measure. You are also saying that it was hunted under the rules that are required for acceptance into that organizations record book.

No, you are not. It is a system of measuring, nothing else.

Gato-You are certainly welcome to your opinion but if you ask the people at B+C, who coined the term, I think you will find that their opinion matches mine.

Eyedoc, you are wrong. The term B&C Score as far as I know is not copywritten, anyone can use it. they just can not claim that the animal in question is Boone & Crockett Club Registerable.

At no point is the claim made that the animals from this operation can be registered or submitted to the B&C Awards program.

Across the country the B&C scoring system is used to measure all of our game animals, whether the animals are eligible for the awards or not is totally immaterial.

B&C can not prohibit the use of the scoring system in and of its self. It can only control what animals are eligible for their awards program.

Even Texas uses the B&C scoring system (Gross) for its Big Game Awards program. It also uses the B&C scoring system for determining restitutipon charges on poached bucks.

Done

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:


Saeed advocates free range hunting. He does not support pen raised lion shooting.

I could be wrong and I would request Saeed clarify for himself if he chooses to do so. I am not speaking for him as you just did. But I thought Saeed endorses LEGAL hunting and leaves it up to the individual to decide their own ethics on the topic.

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:


Saeed advocates free range hunting. He does not support pen raised lion shooting.

I could be wrong and I would request Saeed clarify for himself if he chooses to do so. I am not speaking for him as you just did. But I thought Saeed endorses LEGAL hunting and leaves it up to the individual to decide their own ethics on the topic.

Frostbit,

Check the first page of the thread for Saeed's response.

Here is Saeed's post:

Gentlemen,

I have no objection to anyone offering hunts behind high fence areas, as long as that fact is posted.

Anytime I see the word "guarantee" in context, I know it is behind a fence.

Members are free to make their own choice whether to go on this type of hunt or not.

Folks, this has nothing whatsoever to do with shooting pen raised lions.

The offer was posted in accordance to Saeed's rules and as he so succinctly stated, it is up to the individual to decide if this is something they want to take part in.

From the posts I have read of Saeed's, and I am not speaking for him, he support's Legal Hunting.

Whether he agrees with actual methods used or the way the hunt is conducted, he has not elaborated on.

This thread is upsetting me so much I'm starting to get all watery-eyed...I need a Kleenex and an aspirin!

Ooops! So sorry! I meant a "tissue" and an ASA tablet.

Gentlemen,

It really is not my position to decide what any hunter hunts, or what methods he should follow.

I know for a fact that there are many different, but acceptable, methods of hunting, in different countries of the world.

So as far as I am concerned, if it is legal in the area it is offered, I have no objection to it posted here.

And each of us can make his own choice whether he takes that offer or not.

CHC:

I think you are wrong that guaranteed always means behind a fence.

I have been on a red stag hunt in Bulgaria that was guaranteed . There were absolutely no fences. They offered the guarantee as their last 255 clients had taken their stags. I didn't get one.

I agree that it mostly means behind a fence but not always.

Crazyhorse-If you want you can claim your pecker is a 4 B+C class also. In this case all we are talking about is inches.

You can also call a rifle killed deer a 150 P+Y class deer. Both in both cases you are using incorrect terminology.

I knew from the first post what the guy meant with his advertising so I guess he got his message out just fine. But he used incorrect terminology.He would have been MORE correct to simply state that it would measure 180 inches and left it at that.

Out of cusiosity does an 180 class deer look any different than a B&C deer or taste different than a SCI or P&Y deer?

If so I would consider that false advertising.

Yeah, if you read the first sentence you knew exactly what he's selling, and frankly considering what a deer goes for in that part of the country that's not a bad deal, esp. with the guarantee.

I don't give a shit one way or another- I just like to hunt.

I guess you can tell the bitter show offs that got skunked on their B&C hunts though......

Larry, the add in question on this thread concerns a hunt in Texas, not Bulgaria/Ethiopia or Iceland, but Texas and if it says it is a guaranteed hunt, 99.99999% of the time that means High Fence. in my simple minded little world that is close enough to every time for me.

quote:

But he used incorrect terminology

I do not recall anywhere on signing up to be on Accurate Reloading required a degree in puntuation/terminology/grammar or syntax useage.

I would be damn happy if my pecker was a 4 B&C as I might not piss on myself so damn much.

The point remains, with the exception of anal retentive individuals, using the B&C scoring system to describe the size of a game animal is common practice. Pee & Why is not except for archers and unlike firearm users, archers will and do use the B&C terminology simply because more people are familiar with it than Pee& Why!

Here is a high fence deer hunt in Michigan owned and operated by a DNR officer. It must be ok, if a DNR officer runs it.
www.grayghostranch.com

quote:

They offered the guarantee as their last 255 clients had taken their stags. I didn't get one.

Larry, if you didn't have bad luck, you'd have no luck at all!

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:

quote:

Originally posted by 2th doc:

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:.....
all the peole who are adding their "insights" should just shut the fuck up and go on to another thread.....

Now here is a post to be proud of! Thought I'd quote him just so others could see it after he sobers up an edits it.

Not only am I not going to edit it, but let me add a heartfelt personal "fuck you" to it. Quote that, Prick.

lol. Nice!

A. This is a legal hunt.

B. It meets ALL the requirements for Saeed to post it.

This crap has to stop. Better manners would hopefully dictate to keep your mouth shut if you don't like it. Regardless if you want to discuss it take it somewhere else! Name call each other on PMs and if you want to discuss B&C or the ethics of high fence hunts do it on the North American Hunting Forum! Thanks for screwing up a guy's hunt offer!

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:
A. This is a legal hunt.

B. It meets ALL the requirements for Saeed to post it.

This crap has to stop. Better manners would hopefully dictate to keep your mouth shut if you don't like it. Regardless if you want to discuss it take it somewhere else! Name call each other on PMs and if you want to discuss B&C or the ethics of high fence hunts do it on the North American Hunting Forum! Thanks for screwing up a guy's hunt offer!

Brett

+1

GWB

Brett,

Perfect! And as far as B&C score goes who cares what score system is used to describe the trophy quality? Nobody is trying to enter these deer in the book but by using the B&C score we all know what this gentlemen is trying to sell.

Folks, relax and think about your self-righteous attitude. Wow!

Mark

Hey!!!!

How come nobody told me about this thread?!?!

Wrestling with pigs is my specialty, just look at my avatar!!!!!



I'm sure I'll get banned for even posting!

Since when do you need a personal invite to pig wrestle you LDS (and I do not mean mormon).
I'd be willing to be a couple of the mods are ready to put a "hit on ya,man", just for showing up.


Best

GWB

Brett- And anyone else who is still following this thread and cares.I am not , nor have I ever, bashed someone offerring hunts on AR.I do not particularly have a problem with high fenced hunts, either here or across the pond.

The question came up about the propper discription of the animal offered and I merely chimed in with an opinion on how I see this aspect of the listing.

My post to Crazyhorse were meant mostly in jest.Sorry if I offended anyone as that was not my intent!

No offense taken on my part. You stated your opinion on the issue, I replied back with my opinion. Don't remeber seeing anywhere that folks couldn't express an opinion or that anyone had to agree with that opinion.

With me it ties right back into the dead horse issue of getting folks and possibly even when it is in jest from placing dividers between hunter in general.

If I offened you with my response it was not intentional.