The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting Outfitters - Offered and Discounted Hunts Self catered hunt in the Eastern Cape, South Africa. Not going to happen.Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| Self catered hunt in the Eastern Cape, South Africa. Not going to happen. | Login/Join |
| one of us |
Post is deleted by Scruffy | ||
|
One of Us |
scruffy, is this legal? Who is the PH that is "willing" to forge the documents? And this all for the same prices or higher than is advertised on this board about daily? Karl Stumpfe Ndumo Hunting Safaris www.huntingsafaris.net karl@huntingsafaris.net P.O. Box 1667, Katima Mulilo, Namibia Cell: +264 81 1285 416 Fax: +264 61 254 328 Sat. phone: +88 163 166 9264 | |||
|
One of Us |
 yes sounds a bit strange? | |||
|
one of us |
 Elephant Hunter, Double Rifle Shooter Society, NRA Lifetime Member, Ten Safaris, in RSA, Namibia, Zimbabwe | |||
|
one of us |
I don't have an EC game ordinance here so will check with PHASA tomorrow but most if not all provincial game ordinances require all overseas hunters to be accompanied at all times whilst in the bush. They also require a correctly licenced outfitter to do that end of the paperwork etc. SA firearms laws require details of outfitter and details of where the hunt takes place. Also, in those provinces where a PH is required: if an overseas hunter is caught hunting without a PH accompanying him, it's not impossible that poaching laws could be applied and if so the confiscation of all equipment used during the hunt would be the very least of the hunters worries.  I'm not 100% sure if it's legal in the EC but am 100% sure it's not in most others and "people who want to hunt like we normally do for our elk and deer in Canada and the U.S. With out a guide" would be well advised to check the provincial game laws before doing so. Can I also ask if you're the appointed agent for this company? Because if he's just a third party you're posting for or if you're just an individual looking for hunting partners, you might like to read Saeed's post at the head of this forum. | |||
|
| one of us |
If legal, Very interesting mario | |||
|
| One of Us |
Shakari - I too am not sure if its legal or not, but lord knows it should be! Especially on private - high fenced properties, for plains game. If the game is privately owned, then the option to do so should be totally up to the landowner. I mean honestly, what in the world does someone really need a guide for, when it comes to plains game hunting in SA, on a high-fence ranch property?? Or at least they ought to have a legal option not to need one if the landowner/outfitter are OK with it. | |||
|
One of Us |
if you look at the total daily cost per hunter( food, vehicle, tracker fees, daily fees, etc.) it is MUCH cheaper to do a 2 on 1 guided hunt. not sure why anyone would want to do all the side work, in addition to work directly involved with hunting, just to say "i did it myself". if i wanted to cook, wash dishes, skin and butcher animal, fill out paperwork, etc., i can stay home for free. and i won't have to worry about breaking any laws. good luck on selling this concept- i think you have your work cut out for you at those prices. Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend… | |||
|
| one of us |
Folks sure are quick to condemn ...  | |||
|
| One of Us |
jdollar - ya, you might be right on that point. Not sure how feasible it would be compared to other options, but it certainly ought to be a legal option. Some guys just might want to do it on their own, and since most of the game in SA is privately owned, on private property, it ought to be allowed. At least in my opinion. | |||
|
| one of us |
Aaron, In some ways I think you're right but the reality is that as an industry, they have to consider and set rules etc according to the lowest common enominator not the highest. If every hunter knew what he was doing in the bush, could shoot straight and keep out of trouble etc etc then it'd work but the reality is that not everyone is like that. Accidents can happen and people can do silly things without thinking. Big game in neighbouring areas can break through into what are considered 'safe' areas, poachers can be encountered, people can step on snakes, shoot the wrong animal, get lost and/or try to bribe a tracker to conceal a cock up...... and that's just a few of a million and one possible scenarios. The game laws are written (partly) to protect the industry as a whole to ensure occurrances such as I've mentioned are prevented and/or kept to a minimum because the bad publicity of such occurrances can damage the industry as a whole and suddenly the country has lost a large market share of its tourist hunting industry and income. The two changes I'd dearly like to see is the adoption of one set of game laws for the entire country instead of different standards/rules according to individual province and for PHs to operate countrywide without having to write umpteen different licences. There's talk of that happening but I for one have my doubts because there are too many people out there with their own little fiefdoms that they want to protect. | |||
|
| Administrator |
Well, on the surface, your offer does not look to be totally above board. So why don't you answer the questions raised by Shakari and put it all to rest? | |||
|
| One of Us |
i wasn't condemning your offer. i was just pointing out that most people's hunting trip is also a vacation and speaking for myself, i don't go on vacation with the hope of doing all the scut work. i know how to cook, field dress an animal, wash dishes, etc. and personally for the prices involved here, i would rather have someone else do it and save money in the process. i guess i have gotten lazy as i have gotten older- or am i just smarter ??? Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend… | |||
|
| one of us |
Scruffy, I don't think anyone is condemning you or the offer. Some are asking questions, some are commenting on the prices and some are questioning the legality of such a hunt..... but not to condemn anything, just to ensure that no forum members end up getting their arse punched in an African jail. The only other thing anyone has done is I've asked if you are the guy's agent, are just posting the offer for him or if you're just looking for hunting partners and the reason I'm doing that is to point out that Saeed has a set of rules for this forum which I've posted below. I don't post offers on this forum because I rarely if ever do specials offers but a lot of other guys do and it's only fair to both them and to Saeed that the rules be observed. Ladies and Gentlemen, This Forum was setup to help both hunters looking for hunts and outfitters who have special offers that others might take advantage of. Please make sure the hunts you are offering meet the following: 1. FULL details and prices to be posted. Putting a link to your own site and saying that details are available there is NOT acceptable. 2. You can only offer hunts that you are conducting yourself, or you are an agent for the PH that is going to be conducting the hunt. 3. Posting a hunt for a third party is NOT acceptable. 4. Your full address, or at least a working phone number, MUST be posted. Any hunts posted that do not meet all of the above will be deleted. Your co-operation in this will be appreciated. | |||
|
| one of us |
Managed to get hold of a copy of the EC game ordinance. I'm not a lawyer but Item 58C of the EC game ordinance reads to me as though a PH is required for an overseas hunter. It states: "A PH shall at all times be present during the hunting of a wild animal by his client and shall supervise the hunting of such wild animal". I only skimmed the definitions but it more or less says that the definition of a client is basically a hunter from overseas who is a non resident of SA as defined by the Aliens Act of 1937. Incidentally, the same act says that with the exception of bird hunting, the PH shall accompany no more than 2 hunting clients at any time. So 2x1 is your maximum and 3 or 4 hunters require 2 PHs etc. I have also emailed PHASA for confirmation but am not sure if they'll reply as they're usually very busy. It should also be noted that there are draft documents for revised game ordinances in the pipeline but I can't see that particular item changing much. Incidentally 58E states: "A Professional Hunter who is aware or suspects that this client has contravened any provision of the ordinance or these regulations, shall, within 24 hours of so becoming aware or so suspecting report the matter to a member of the South African Police Force ot to a nature conservation officer". | |||
|
One of Us |
i AGREE WITH Steve, It is not legal to self guide anywhere in SA ,the animals hunted will need to be logged onto a ph register and that is where you will get a huge surprise,No export permit will be issued. If john conducts the hunt under a registered hunting outfitter,with the required 2 ph's for the 4 hunters,and does the legal paperwork then go for it,Remember a ph is required to be there by law,no ph no lEgal hunt!!!!! | |||
|
one of us |
Steve, Andrew, 100% correct. any "client" has to hunt by arrangement of a licemced outfitter under the direction/guidance of a licenced PH. They can be one and the same. A client is a foreign national that does not have permanent residence and is not a citizen of RSA. Anyone found aiding and abetting an illegal activity like this hunt suggests is open to a number of charges. The outfitter/ph can lose his licences and be heavily fined, and stands the possibility of being found not competent to be in possesion of firearms in terms of the firearms act. Here are some of the issues one might face; - offer to conduct for reward any safari unless in possesion of the necessary authorisation - Court - publish or cause to be published in any way whatsoever any false or misleading statement relating to any safari - Court PH/outfitter licences - act as either of the above without a licence - Court Client - Hunting without the hunt being organised by a licenced outfitter - Court - not being escorted by a licenced PH - Court Agreement/contracts -failure to conclude an agreement R2500 fine -Failure to retain a copy of said agreement - R1000 fine And naturally there would be a cascade of attributable tribulations  Harris Safaris PO Box 853 Gillitts RSA 3603 www.southernafricansafaris.co.za https://www.facebook.com/pages...=aymt_homepage_panel "There is something about safari life that makes you forget all your sorrows and feel as if you had drunk half a bottle of champagne." - Karen Blixen, | |||
|
| one of us |
I think that penalties can vary slightly from province to province but in some provinces at least, I'm also fairly sure that if the game dept wanted to get really nasty, they could also apply poaching charges and penalties for that can include confiscation of all equipment used during the hunt, including rifles, binos, gps and vehicles, including hire vehicles etc. Plus of course, possible large fines and jail time. It was only a few years ago that a white guy got caught shooting a warthog on the road that goes past Ian's place and I was told at the time that he lost a shitload of gear including a brand new Toyota doublecab. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Steve - By looking through all of the recent posts, it does appear that a self-guided hunt would NOT be legal, is that correct? If that's the case, then it should certainly be avoided, and this offer should likely be removed. IF, I am reading all of this correctly?? I do however find the above quote a bit funny, for obvious reasons. I also think that its actually a bit of a shame that self-guided hunts on private land, with privately owned animals, is NOT legal. Many places in the eastern Cape for example, are no more wild than my backyard, they just happen to be alot bigger. I think some guys would enjoy doing that, I know I certainly would. It really should be up to the landowner, since he owns the land, and the game. I also agree with you on the license requirements for each province, that's totally foolish! One PH license for the whole of SA, should be sufficient. | |||
|
| one of us |
Aaron, One of the problems in all the acts is that they were often written by people who don't have English (or even American ) as their first language and therefore they often read slightly clumsily..... this is often compounded by the legalese.  The self guided thing is always difficult. Sure if you've got the right area and the right client then it would in theory be feasible but as I said, you need to allow for the lowest common denominator rather than the highest. I'll give you a theoretical example of just how easily things can go wrong. Admittedly the first example is on DG but I'm sure you'll see the point I'm trying to make..... once upon a time in a land far, far away, a PH was hunting rhino in an unnamed province. The hunter was very wealthy, very experienced and very domineering. The client wounded the rhino and they lost the spoor. Next step was to call in the chopper which was an R22 - 2 seater. The client wanted to go in the chopper to find his rhino and pressured the PH who I guess in a moment of madness said OK. You go and I'll wait here. Off the client went in the chopper and they soon saw a rhino laying down. Instead of flying back to the PH and going in on foot, the client bullied the pilot to fly low so he could finish it off....... one shot, one dead rhino but the problem was that it was a different and unwounded rhino. Who pays the trophy fees? On the subject of the lowest common denominator, all kinds of things can happen such as someone forgetting to unload a rifle to playing with snakes in the mistaken belief that it's dead. (very common with puffadders) to trying to drive a borrowed 4x4 worth well over half a million rands into a river without checking the depth first. All those very possible scenarios are just some of the many reasons why unaccompanied hunting is forbidden in most African countries. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Steve - In short, ya, ya, ya, I hear ya! But the fact is, we are not talking about Rhinos are anything else dangerous. So that scenario just doesn't jive. Secondly, Steve I think guys in Africa tend to forget how EXPERIENCED many North American hunters are. Many us of hunt in MUCH more rugged terrain, much more dangerous elements, often many times further from a road or vehicle, than I have ever been in ALL of Africa, etc, etc, etc. We skin & cape ALL of our own game, we pack out (on our back) all of the trophy & meat, camp and hunt in MUCH more uncomfortable scenarios than anything I have ever experienced in Africa as well. Fact is, I am talking about some plains game hunting on some private, high-fenced ranch in the eastern cape, that one couldn't get lost on, if you blind folded him. I'm simply saying if its illegal, then that's the fact. But it shouldn't be if everything is done on private land, with privately owned game, and certainly not because of the element of danger. My back yard is just as dangerous as the eastern cape, or most other places in SA for that matter. | |||
|
| one of us |
Aaron, Like I said, I don't disagree with you in many ways but the problem is the lowest common denominator thing. All those examples I mentioned have happened in recent years to hunters from the US and in some cases, also from elsewhere. In the case of the loaded rifle, I know of 3 occasions it's happened. 1 with an American and 2 other with people from from elsewhere...... but on all the occasions I've mentioned, they had experienced PHs either with them or nearby who were able to intercede (excepting the rhino) before things got completely out of hand. (Admittedly, not all in RSA) I'm not suggesting all overseas hunters stuff up just that a very few do and although there may well be reasons for that such as jet lag and/or anti maliarials clouding their mind, these things do still happen and because of that, I understand why unaccompanied safaris are forbidden. I don't always necessarily agree with it but I do understand it. All that said, at the end of the day, whether we like it or not, that's what the law says and no matter how much people may bleat, I can't see it changing. | |||
|
| one of us |
Ensure that Overseas Hunters Comply with the Law 07 Jun 2010 Game ranch owners, hunting outfits and professional hunters should ensure that they bring the legal requirements for hunting undertaken by foreign hunters in South Africa to their attention, in publications and on their websites, said Ms Adri Kitshoff, Chief Executive Officer of the Professional Hunting Association of South Africa (PHASA). Hunting opportunities are often being advertised in magazines and association newsletters, in-house magazines and on websites and, although these advertised hunts are mostly aimed at the South African hunter, it is evident that overseas hunters also have access to these, especially on websites. South African provincial legislation clearly state that a client may not hunt in South Africa unless the hunt was organised and presented by a hunting outfit and the client is guided or escorted by a professional hunter. Hunting outfits and professional hunters must see to it that clients hunt legally and must report any contravention of the law within 24 hours to the SA Police Service or Nature Conservation. A client is any person, not normally resident in South Africa, who pays or rewards sombebody for the hunting of wild, alien or exotic animals. A Hunting Outfitter is any person who presents, or organises the hunting of a wild, alien or exotic animal for a client and who is in possession of a valid permit to do so. A professional hunter is any person who guides a client and is responsible for a client who hunts a wild, alien or exotic animal and is in possession of a valid permit to do so. Harris Safaris PO Box 853 Gillitts RSA 3603 www.southernafricansafaris.co.za https://www.facebook.com/pages...=aymt_homepage_panel "There is something about safari life that makes you forget all your sorrows and feel as if you had drunk half a bottle of champagne." - Karen Blixen, | |||
|
| Administrator |
Everything you have mentioed might be true. But, it still does not take into consideration that South Africa, as well as many other African countries, require a licenced PH to be present during the hunt. I remember a while back someone posted offers of PAC hunts in Mozambique, and we had all sorts of arguments about it. In the end it traspired that PAC hunts in Mozambique are illegal. But the person offering them said something like "we know how to deal with this". I would not, under any circumstances, hunt in any country where there is any question of my breaking the law. It really is not worth it to spend time in a foreign jail. | |||
|
One of Us |
in Texas...we just let those folks get weeded out by natural selection. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
|
| One of Us |
North American hunters may be more experienced in the bush than most SA hunters. We don't have black trackers, skinners, cooks and waiters to do the hard work for us. 465H&H | |||
|
| one of us |
We all make mistakes ..  I( apologize if anyone's day has become upsetting. Andrew has written me a very nice letter which I appreciate. I see that some folks take these things very personally and feel a need to flame whoever they have taken exception to .. and sadly I guess I am in the cross hairs right now .. In my own (obviously weak) defence I did my best to list everything that I could think of to comply to the rules .. I agree with Saeed that there is no way in hell that I am going to go 10,000 miles and break some law in a foreign country .. Certainly not knowingly . I was very impressed with Aaron's comments ... and he is certainly right that African plainsgame hunting is pretty sedate and easy compared to much of our North American hunting with the climate and terrain. So once again .. I deleted this 'thread' yestereday .. sorry about anything posted that upset you folks .. We go on .. Interesting people on this forum .  | |||
|
| one of us |
Scruffy, I'm sorry you feel you were flamed. That certainly wasn't my intention and I doubt it was anyone elses either. I can't speak for anyone else but my aim was firstly to ensure no forum member unwittingly found himself up to his neck in the smelly brown stuff and secondly to point out that Saeed has strict rules here about who can and cannot post offers and what those offers should and should not include - and frankly this case actually proves why those rules are so important. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Saeed - You are absolutely correct. If its illegal, it doesn't really matter anyway. My point was simply that it SHOULD be made legal to do so, there's no good reason it shouldn't. | |||
|
| One of Us |
I agree with Aaron that it would be desireable to have some do it on your own hunting in Africa. I would love to be able to try an elephant hunt on my own with a really good tracker. But that isn't legal in any country that I hunt and for the most part for very good reasons. Few of us could do that safely. 465H&H | |||
|
One of Us |
John Coleman mentioned this hunt to me and asked if I would be interested in hosting such hunters as he has hunted on my ranch for many years. I could not do it and so did not go into the legality of it, but suffice to say that John is one of the most experienced and conscientious hunters in Africa today and I have no doubt that he did his homework. Incidetally, if anyone has a day to spend in his company he has marvelous tales to tell of dangerous game hunting over numerous decades. I repeat, though, that I do not know the technicalities involved in his offer. | |||
|
| one of us |
Mate, I don't know either you or John from a bar of soap but with all due respect to you both and with absolutely no offence or criticism intended to either of you, he obviously didn't do his homework because if he had, he'd have known about 58C and known that such a hunt is illegal. A quick perusal of the act also seemed to suggest that even advertising such a hunt is also illegal.... but admittedly, I might have misunderstood that bit because it was nothing more than a quick perusal. | |||
|
One of Us |
Maybe this belongs as a seperate thread in the African hunting forums, but on several hunting TV shows it looks like the PH's drop off a bowhunter in a blind and then take off. I wonder if the PH's are with them, if they aren't there in the blind with them, is this legal? Caleb | |||
|
| one of us |
Cable, that is a whole new can of worms  Harris Safaris PO Box 853 Gillitts RSA 3603 www.southernafricansafaris.co.za https://www.facebook.com/pages...=aymt_homepage_panel "There is something about safari life that makes you forget all your sorrows and feel as if you had drunk half a bottle of champagne." - Karen Blixen, | |||
|
| One of Us |
well I'm surprised no one has mentioned this, and if they have I apologize for not seeing it. But, if indeed you took this hunt without the presence of a PH, and it was discovered, you could in theory be prosecuted under the Lacy Act here in the USA by breaking the hunting laws of another country!!!!! Scary stuff.... | |||
|
| One of Us |
IT'S IS EASILY DOABLE TO HUNT ELEPHANT ON YOUR OWN. CAMSHAFT, WHO POSTS HERE, RECENTLY OFFERED A DO-IT-YOURSELF ELEPHANT HUNT IN CAMEROON. JUST YOU, TRACKERS AND PORTERS. Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend… | |||
|
| one of us |
Very good point indeed! | |||
|
| one of us |
Guys, FYI. The reply from PHASA: Dear Steve, Thank you for the mail. You are correct in the way you interpret the law, such hunts are illegal. I have also informed Jaap Pienaar, Eastern Cape Nature Conservation Officer, of the advertised hunt as well as the other provinces. Also remember that had any US citizen booked this, they would also have been laying themselves open to prosecution under the Lacey Act when they (perhaps eventually) returned home.  | |||
|
| one of us |
A licensed professional hunter would have been there at all times . Just like the bowhunters do. All necessary paper work would have been done by a licensed professional hunter/outfitter. I reckon that the proper term should have been self catered . But like I said and did .. the post was deleted when the question arose ... | |||
|
| one of us |
Scruffy, Like I said previously, I'm not having a pop at you at all...... What I'm trying to do is make sure no-one unwittingly breaks the law. So don't for a moment think I'm criticising you. The provincial game ordinance Item 5/58C states: "A PH shall at all times be present during the hunting of a wild animal by his client and shall supervise the hunting of such wild animal". Note the term 'shall at all times be present during the hunting' etc. That means that a properly licenced PH shall accompany the client during all parts of the hunt. In other words, unaccompanied hunting is illegal and what's more, I think you'll find if you check the act that even the offering of such a hunt is illegal. That won't affect you but it is possible it could affect the guy who offered the hunt to you...... and frankly, (IMO) he should have known better than to make such an offer.  If you check through the rest of the act, I'm fairly sure you'll also find the stipulation that with the exception of wingshooting, a PH may only accompany a maximum of two hunters at any one time. I'm glad you've deleted the offer but that doesn't alter the fact that it could have landed a lot of forum members not only in big trouble here in SA but if they were American, also possibly in the US when they return home. It's a good example of why people need to do their homework so very carefully about an African hunting safari before they part with any money (esp when looking at the cheap end of the market) and it's also a very good example of why Saeed has such strict rules about who can post offers here and what info they must provide. Once again, I'm not having a pop at you in any way.  As regards bowhunters, exactly the same rule applies. If it's of interest, you can download most of the provincial ondinances here: rovincial-ordinances" target="_blank">http://phasa.co.za/index.php?o...rovincial-ordinances Frankly, if I was Saeed or one of his moderators, I'd have removed the offer as soon as I saw it. | |||
|
| Powered by Social Strata | Page 1 2 |
 | Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|
The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting Outfitters - Offered and Discounted Hunts Self catered hunt in the Eastern Cape, South Africa. Not going to happen.
Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia
