A 'fat tax' on obese airline passengers could be a step closer after a Court of Appeal ruling that fliers cannot sue for embarrassment caused when on board a plane.

The tax could be implemented following a victory for travel giants Thomas Cook and British Airways in a case against two passengers who sued them over their treatment on two flights.
The court cited the Montreal Convention as the reason for the firms' victory, which overrules international law and is a set of rules that govern air travel.
The decision could lead to airlines introducing a tax against obese passengers without fear of the consequences, a leading barrister has claimed.

Daniel Barnett, of the Outer Temple Chambers in London, said the decision means passengers could not sue if crew cause distress to passengers on board.
This means that they could therefore embarrass obese fliers into paying a 'fat tax' when they board.

He also said that disabled passengers would have no right to dignity once they leave the ground.

Mr Barnett told MailOnline: 'Today's court ruling makes it clear that airlines will never be liable for hurt feelings.
'Anything cabin crew say to passengers when they are on board will be done without fear of the consequences.'


Mr Barnett explained that currently airlines can do what they want with regards to an obese person before a flight leaves the ground and they are legally allowed to do so.
This could include forcing them to buy a second seat if they are unable to fit comfortably into one alone.
However for disabled people airlines are not allowed to charge a passenger more unless they can prove a good business case.

Mr Barnett's comments came following the conclusion of the case, which involved two disabled men.

Christopher Stott, from south east London and Tony Hook, of Leicester, sued the companies after they were unable to sit next to carers on a flight.


Both subsequently suffered 'embarrassing' incidents with Mr Stott being tipped from his wheelchair in front of other passengers.
Both men argued that their treatment meant they should be entitled to compensation as a result of their ruined holidays and hurt feelings.
However, with fears of countless similar claims, the Court of Appeal sided with the operators, citing the Montreal Convention.

The three appeal judges added that while they had sympathy with the men they rejected their claim.

The judges also rejected permission to take the case to the Supreme Court.

The rejection by the judges comes after a number of industry experts suggested that a 'fat tax' should be introduced.
In January a former economist for the Qantas airlines suggested a tax because of the need for additional fuel to carry overweight passengers.
And in January 2010, Air France revealed it was to charge passengers for extra tickets if they could not fit into a single seat.

Since when is traveling by airplane a "right"? If you need two seats, buy two seats. We all see very large people trying to squeeze into seats that will not fit them.

What about the poor bloke that sits next to the large person that cannot fit in his seat and consequently spills over to the seat someone else has paid for?

These are not "rights" issues, but personal decisions - if I am too big to fit in an economy class seat, then buy two or move to business class. If you cannot afford it, try some other form of transport.

I support the airlines on this.

What really pisses me off is if my luggage is a couple pounds overweight and I get charged. I weigh 175 lbs. and a 300 pound dude doesn't get charged more for his seat. I'd like to see a total weight limit of person and luggage.

Calgary,

Yes that's a great idea, then those little 100 pound bastards can ride damn near for free.

i agree any 1 over 300 pounds should be paying extra its no fair for some 1 who weigfts double or at least 100 pounds more than the adverage person to be paying a normal single fare rate i dont belive in charging them double but 1.5 times at max is fine

To be accurate in setting fares, the airlines should weigh each passenger AND luggage and charge by the pound for the whole package.

Tom

quote:

Originally posted by twoseventy:
To be accurate in setting fares, the airlines should weigh each passenger AND luggage and charge by the pound for the whole package.

Tom

+1

Thank You!

the devil in the details: the notion that you can sue because somebody hurt your feelings is the sort of socialist garbage that is killing this country, and the world.

Those fat slobs always ask if you mind if they lift the seat arm so they can half of your seat as well as theirs. I endured some fat broad who got on early and took the middle seat a couple years ago. She had both armrests up, and just about covered window to aisle. The pig was very indignant about the stew making her wedge into just her own space.

I think it would be fairer to measure them across the backside and charge on size.

Rich

International carriers flying over seas are much more stringent on their enforcement of rules such as number of carry-ons, size of carry-ons etc. than our domestic companies here in the states. Now that baggage fees are charged people are dragging everything but the kitchen sink on board and with little restrictions and inspections. If you can not lift the luggage over head and if it will not fit in the overhead without extreme pushing and shoving put it below.

Every airline has a baggage measurer in the boarding area that says,, if it doesn't fit in here the agent will check it into the cargo hole for you.

They need to put a standard airline seat out front as well,,, if you can't fit your big butt into this seat,, buy 2!!! Most standard coach seat widths are 15 inches,,, you can't fit 35 inches into 15!

Quantas was real strict on their weights when I went on a hunt there a few years back. I had all my electronics and optics in my pockets,, they didn't care if I weighed 280,, as long as the back pack fit in the size and weight requirements. Flying into the bush it was much tighter,, I wore almost all of my clothes on the flight in,, yep,, 3 pairs of socks, underwear t shirts etc,, almost burned up and just had a small backpack my gun,, in soft case only,, and ammo. I stepped on the scale with all my clothes on and the agent just looked at me,, I told him I was "big boned",, I am not sure how much I weighed then but I weigh 235. I have no problem with the airlines charging me a total wight package, especially hunting and fishing,, I just want to make sure the plane isn't over weight and gets off and lands safeley and my gear gets there.

i like the idea of a "Luggage and Lard" system. You pay what you weigh.

For those of you who are saying that the passengers and their bags should be weighed together and charged accordingly, stay tuned. The airlines have been considering this for a while, but have not figured out a way to fairly impliment it yet. I agree with We Are Sparta, flying is NOT a right. Everyone gets to choose their own form of transportation, and whatever form they choose, they should be ready to follow the rules of that company, whether it be airline, train, ship, etc. There is no airline which charges a "fat" tax yet, and I doubt that it will ever happen. If a passenger thinks he will take up more than one seat, then he should buy two seats on the plane, it's that simple. A passenger who overflows his seat is infringing on the rights of the passenger seated next to him. Passengers need to learn to take responsibility for themselves, their actions, and their size.

I have some experience with these issues, and I can tell you that airlines transporting grossly overweight passengers, or anyone with a special need, is a potential lawssuit waiting to happen. You would not believe the issues that arise, and the amounts of money that are demanded in these lawsuits for what amounts to what was a very minor inconvenience for the passenger. The words "frivilous lawsuit" come immediately to mind. We have become a very litigious society, and there is nowhere this is more apparent than in the airline industry.

I once tried to see if I bought 2 seats in coach on a trip to Africa would I be guaranteed to have those 2 seats,, and the answer is "no". I didn't need the extra one because I was fat,, just didn't want a 300 pounder all over me for 18 hours. Then the flight cost was like 1600 coach round trip,, business was like 6500,, I thought it would be worth the extra cash for the extra room...I was told that if they need the seat they would use it and no refund would be given because I had "a" seat. The airline and travel industry does not make any sense and is not a "service' oriented industry. I guess I could start another thread about the time we refueled in Senegal and one of the new passengers,, which sat by me was covered with fleas!! I killed fleas for the next 9 hours and worried about catching the plague or something....I wish they had left that bug spray on the plane I could have used it!!

drwes - The airline agent who told you that if they needed the seat you paid for they would take it is dead wrong. You paid for it - it's yours, and I believe that's an industry-wide standard. In that scenario, they would give you 2 boarding cards, one for each seat. They are not allowed to sell a seat twice, and they cannot force you to give up one of the seats even if they promised you a refund on it. I have witnessed some very large people buy two seats and they were not upset about it, and it looked like thay had done it before.

Molepole
I believe you are wrong. If there is not a body to fill the seat they will sell it just as if it were a "no show".

I believe that we have covered this on this site. IIRC a hunter and his son traveled together. They had purchased 3 seats planning to have a "block" to themselves.

It didn't work as the airline(SSA) resold the seat and said "tough luck".

If you have been one stuck in a middle seat with 2 very large people on each side of you, each taking a third of your seat only leaving you a third of the seat, you see this as having your some of your flying rights taken back.

The above situation happened to me some years ago flying back home from a business trip, thankfully it was just an hour and half flight. When I arrived at my seat and saw what I had to deal with I contacted the flight attendant and was basically told that it was my problem.

I had a similar story with a overweight women on a flight back from Alaska. I just finished my first big game hunting trip to Alaska and was catching the red-eye back to the States. The flight was full and we were late taking off. The last people on the plane was this lady and I think her son. On the connecting flight to Phila I had the plessure of this lady sitting next to me with her son sitting in the asile seat. She was so big I couldn't use my left arm without elbowing her in the stomach. I proceeded to eat and put the photos in my album with one had. I also didn't use the latrine the whole flight.

I fly regularly for work and having the giants sitting on me is one of the horrors of air travel in this era of obesity. One of the best tricks out there is to learn the weight and balance and seating approach of your regular airline and to make good friends with the gate agents from your home airport. Many airlines will now show how full the flight is booked and if you ask politely (and treat your gate agent friends nicely) they will often change your seat to an open row. Getting a middle seat or window seat is a no-no for me because the last line of defense is to make sure you know how to lift the arm-rest on the aisle seat so you can sit on one cheek to avoid the monsters! I always board early and get the armrest down to defend my space in case it is a full flight and a monster tries to slime or attack me with their flab.

Amen. One of the very few perks of being a Diamond Medallion with Delta other than the "thanks for being Diamond" on the phone when they tell you why they can't do what you want, is getting on the plane early. Isle seat and the armrest down. It does not come up. The airlines have screwed us on too many other "rights." I have to disagree with Saeed on this one. Obese people need to buy enough seats for themselves and stay out of mine.

Don

I would rather have a big person next to me rather than a person with Body odor. Once you open the can don't stop

Always get an exit row; you can't sit there if you need a seatbelt extender.

DonW28: I can't believe you don't get upgraded every time. Hell, I am Platinum and I do.

When a fat person takes up my seat, I tell the flight attendant that I am being denied the seat I bought, and they can either reseat me, the fat guy, or give me my $400 and put me on the next flight. I am not taking it anymore.

I do always get upgraded on domestic flights and to Central America and the Caribbean. Long haul international is another story. You have to hold a Y,B,or M class ticket to actually upgrade using miles or system-wide upgrade certificates on Delta. Sometimes I get lucky even holding a lower class ticket. Not more than 1/3 of the time though.

Gerry,
I don't think anyone here is trying to open a can of worms and you are right about the BO. However, most of us have had the very unpleasant experience of sharing 1/3 or more of our seats with someone who is extremely large. As someone who works primarily outside the U.S. I guess I've become immune to some degree to the bathing habits, or lack of I should say, in some other places. Not that some of our good citizens can't lack in that category as well.



Don

quote:

Originally posted by calgarychef1:
What really pisses me off is if my luggage is a couple pounds overweight and I get charged. I weigh 175 lbs. and a 300 pound dude doesn't get charged more for his seat. I'd like to see a total weight limit of person and luggage.

Totally agree.
A few pounds of extra luggage costs a small fortune, but 100 pounds or more of bodyweight doesn't cost any more at all, and that is just totally stupid and unfair.

Why doesn't someone just open a new airline? Call it FATASS AIRLINES! Cater to the huge and smelly!

actually Don I was kind of kidding but it is an issue. Really I think that if airlines charged what they should and took no money from gov't and taxpayers and ran it like it should be run the price would change and it would be fine with me to pay more have bigger seats and more legroom.Even normal size except maybe a little tall have a problem with leg room also.with a bum knee i almost have tom fly business or first class if available because of legroom .

Charge by the pound and by the mile.

I agree with the sentiments expressed in this thread but I am disturbed about what this could mean to passengers who are physically disabled. A fat tax is one thing but the poor treatment of passengers confined to wheelchairs is another.

I love this crap. i am overweight >300 lbs. The airlines dont charge less if you bring small children on a flight do they? If the seats were regular size and not made for 110 lb adults things would be better. I double book my seats. When asked if I will give one up, I just laugh. HELL NO. The last trip to Tanzania, I had two seats in economy, side-by-side and the flight was delayed due to the open seat. Counting heads!!!Finally the steward asked me about the two tickets and I explained the situation to him. He and the stewardess said that it was not necessary but have a good flight.I sometimes take another passenger with me and my daughter loves to go. But she doesnt fit the seat either she is 5'9 and 120 lbs with very long legs. No comfortable seat spacing even for "normal" size folks.There are many oxes to gore in this business. The extra seat also gives me more luggage and FFM.

The reason bag limits are enforced more stringently than human weight limits is because a baggage handler has to lift the bag and not the human. (Handicapped humans may be the exception)

A 98 lb female baggage handler struggles with bags over 50 lbs and her union insists that something be done to limit the number of overweight bags she is forced to deal with.Exorbitant fees is the answer they have come up with.

As to weighing the WHOLE PACKAGE, bags and passenger; the logistics of it is what has put a hold on the idea so far. How do you sell a ticket when you don't know how much you are going to charge until the client arrives to be weighed?

quote:

Originally posted by calgarychef1:
What really pisses me off is if my luggage is a couple pounds overweight and I get charged. I weigh 175 lbs. and a 300 pound dude doesn't get charged more for his seat. I'd like to see a total weight limit of person and luggage.

Next to come will probably see us all being treated as baggage and charged by the pound.

There is definitely a comfort factor (if you can refer to the cattle call section as comfortable at all)but when seated three across on a 16+ hour flight a little comfort is needed. Flying from Atlanta to Jo'Berg last year I was seated on the isle. Next to me was a very LARGE female. Actually, the poor lady extended over the arm rest into my space and I could not get comfortable with the constant pressure of her weight pushing against me.

I asked a flight attendant if there were any empty seats on the aircraft. Thankfully, there was one and I hastily changed. I got lucky or it would have been a long and miserable flight for me. Hence, I totally support the idea of requiring a really large individual to purchase an extra seat. If the lady had paid for two seats on a three seat isle it would have been manageable for two people where it was intolerable for three.

Having been crowded on flights by obese people, I can sympathize. I am 6 FT. 225 lbs , not obese and not particularly large , But, my shoulders are 22" wide and with a 15" seat, that puts me 3.5" over on both sides! Even the spindly little Queen Anne style chairs in my formal dining room are 18" wide across the back. Some of the problems are obese large people, but for many of us, the real problem is that airlines have downsized the seats excessively ! I used to fly a lot in the 70's to 80's before deregulation, and coach seats were comfortable. I really don't think a 15" wide seat is realistic in most of the western world. Just my .02.

In 07, I hunted Brown Bear on the Kamchatka Peninsula in Russia. We had to travel the long way around through Moscow. The following day we connected from Moscow to Petropovlovsk on Aeroflot. That is an 11 hour flight!

I had asked for and received an isle seat. When I got on the plane, there were 2, 400 pound Russian Babooshka type ladies sitting in the isle and window seats, pleading for me to take the center. I'm 6'1" and weigh 230. I just stood there while the plane continued to board and responded with "Nyet" every time they pleaded with me.

The flight attendant finally realized I wasn't going to take the center seat and got the giant to move over. I had maybe 1/2 of my seat for the duration. It really pissed her off that I wouldn't swap seats because for the next 11 hours, she stared right at me with her head turned 90 degrees, face about 10 inches from mine, and the most pissed off look on her face you can imagine. To make matters worse, my two buddies, who had isle seats across from me and one in front of the other, being the ugly Americans, laughed at me the entire flight which served to further infuriate her. She actually knocked my Pepsi into my lap about 3 hours out from landing.

Foreign country, foreign airline, not even close to speaking the language, no real idea of local customs and what is or is not acceptable or offensive, not really wanting to make a big stink about it and being put off the plane in Moscow with no local connections. By far the most miserable flight I've ever endured as a passenger.

I have to say, I'm in favor of making the monsters pay for an additional seat. Either that or at least have the agents make some effort to put small people next to the large. But that just doesn't seem very practical in real time.

quote:

When a fat person takes up my seat, I tell the flight attendant that I am being denied the seat I bought, and they can either reseat me, the fat guy, or give me my $400 and put me on the next flight. I am not taking it anymore.

Good advise.

Ever thought of loosing weight????

quote:

Originally posted by lb404:
I love this crap. i am overweight >300 lbs. The airlines dont charge less if you bring small children on a flight do they? If the seats were regular size and not made for 110 lb adults things would be better. I double book my seats. When asked if I will give one up, I just laugh. HELL NO. The last trip to Tanzania, I had two seats in economy, side-by-side and the flight was delayed due to the open seat. Counting heads!!!Finally the steward asked me about the two tickets and I explained the situation to him. He and the stewardess said that it was not necessary but have a good flight.I sometimes take another passenger with me and my daughter loves to go. But she doesnt fit the seat either she is 5'9 and 120 lbs with very long legs. No comfortable seat spacing even for "normal" size folks.There are many oxes to gore in this business. The extra seat also gives me more luggage and FFM.

Good on you for buying two seats IB404. I saw a guy do that once and personally thanked him.