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Holy Crap !!! Nec Timor Nec Temeritas | |||
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You know.... I have been an airline pilot for going on twenty years. I watch people roll their eyes and huff and puff and stomp their little feet when they are told to put a seat belt or to shut their mouths during a safety demo. I see people get up and ignore the seat belt sign and brush past flight attendants when they ask them to please return to their seats and buckle up. I see folks ignoring the safety demo. If you knew what I know you'd not do that! I well remember the day one of our 747's hit severe turbulence over the North Pacific. The seat belt sign was on multiple PA's had been made,9 folks ignored it. They all received broken bones and one was killed when she hit the ceiling hard enough to break her neck. How many of you folks really know how to activate your O2 mask when it drops from the ceiling? Everyone right? I did a little test once with a bunch of businessmen who volunteered to attend a safety seminar. I put them into cabin crash sim. Did a simulated explosive decomp. Only two rows out of ten correctly activated their O2 masks. These guys fly on a weekly basis. Hint someone in the row has to pull down SHARPLY on their mask to pull the activation pin out of the lanyard. Pretty simple right? How about that pesky life jacket? Think you could locate it put it on correctly and inflate it in pitch black with cold sea water rushing in. My bet is not only no but heck no! Here's one for you. How many of you guys could locate an exit in zero visibility in a cabin full of screaming people and thick smoke? Based on the simulations I've seen/ accident fatality reports I've read the answer is most likely not. Every time I get on an airplane as a passenger or a crew member I make a survival plan. I count seats to the nearest two exits. I know the number of seats to the forward exit and the number to the nearest exit behind me. I close my eyes and visualize how to open the doors on either side of the airplane and how they would work if we were upside down (pretty common way to end up after a crash). In the cabin crash simulator one of the scenarios is a crashing noise all the lights go out. Then they start filling the cabin with theatrical smoke and start "fires" out one side of the cabin and block all but one of the exits on the non burning side. There is no real fire, no injuries, no wreckage blocking the aisles and the cabin tilts about 20 deg to one side pretty benign right? I've seen total uncontrollable panic take hold in that simulator. Imagine what the real deal would be like if you can. If you don't have a plan and something goes wrong you are more than likely to end up a victim instead of a survivor. Put down you friggin book, quit talking to your buddies and really listen to the safety briefing, read that briefing card and visualize and make mental notes like I described. Never ever ever sit in an airplane without a your seat belt on. Just those simple little steps will increase your survival in a survivable aircraft accident or turbulence encounter by about 90%. Why wouldn't you do that? | |||
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Wow. I will be paying better attention from now on! Tom Addleman tom@dirtnapgear.com | |||
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great advice, and thank you! NRA LIFE MEMBER DU DIAMOND SPONSOR IN PERPETUITY DALLAS SAFARI CLUB LIFE MEMBER SCI FOUNDATION MEMBER | |||
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If I could drive, I would. Meantime, I must trust total strangers of whose personal habits I know nothing. Why do I worry? Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Forget the exit doors. I'm climbing out the huge hole in the cabin! All kidding aside. Great advice. Full time professional trapper | |||
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thank you, pretty good advice here. | |||
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Keep the belts on!  | |||
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Surestrike I do very similar to you. I think having military training helps as you do tend to plan ahead. Also, I have read a few articles where those who have had mil, police, fire etc training - Emergency service, working in high pressure environments - tend to survive better in crashes etc. Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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We have an ex-military friend here reading this with Walter. Walter said "They survive because of THICKER heads. Not better training!" Everyone is laughing! | |||
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I think what Surestrike is saying is that listening to the usual safety instruction is not sufficient. Makes sense. Why not wear a seatbelt when seated? Don't get up when seatbelt light is on, that's easy (but we've all seen flights where they just leave it on for the whole flight, if there is a reason, maybe they should explain, especially if it's a long flight). I just got off a plane and the pilot explainded that it would be bumpy the whole way, that he couldn't climb over it or fly below it. Now I understand. Don't just leave the fasten seatbelt sign on for the whole flight, even when it gets seemingly calm.) Have been studies on getting out of the airplane in the event of a crash. Toxic fumes are an issue and it's not the time to be polite. I always count rows to exits fore and aft. Hopefully will never be an issue. | |||
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Well, that cinches it. The belt stays on. Good laugh Walter. | |||
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Inside a sheet metal tube with proper function totally dependant on several thousand parts and pieces, zipping along at several hundred miles an hour, couple miles above the earth, with little or no room for human error or forces of nature.... What could go wrong? | |||
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Been there, in a thunderstorm over Jacksonville Fla, years ago. Lots of food and drink spilled. Thought I was going to die. Everyone was buckled in, fortunately. NRA Patron member | |||
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If surestrike is the pilot on one of the planes I am flying on, I will catch another flight.  | |||
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...and when you get to where you are staying, count the number of doorways to each exit in the hotel hallway too! Robert If we can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people, under the pretense of taking care of them, they must become happy. Thomas Jefferson, 1802 | |||
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The only thing I would add to the excellent suggestions is to only fly in natural fiber clothing. No melting synthetics. My time as a flight surgeon and seeing pic/reading reports of flight crews that thought that little bit of nylon wont melt to their skin really woke me up to the very real possibilities of surviving the crash and dying in the fire. Hunting: Exercising dominion over creation at 2800 fps. | |||
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I keep a small BRIGHT surefire light clipped on my backpack, that is rarely out of my reach. It has saved my bacon a couple times in distant lands, where electricity is not as..... reliable as in the states. I have to think that the light might be handy on the plane too, in the event of a night-time emergency. When I took SWMBO and her sister to Africa last year, I bought extras for them, and to give away. Walking between dining and sleeping areas, I was suddenly Very Smart Mikee. Not to hijack, but a couple years ago, I was in a warehouse in Jersey, that had the plane that went down in the Hudson stored in it. Wings were removed, not so neatly, but the whole plane was there. Quite strange to walk thru that and understand how close disaster was that day. +1 on the natural fibers too - spent most of my career in power plants, have seen the results of a flash fire in a breaker, and what it did to synthetics. Not good, not survivable. Have also seen the same with proper protective gear ( face shield and Kevlar raincoat), much better results. And yes, I always have the belt on, I fly over 100000 miles a year, just for business, not counting hunting and vacations. Master of Boats, Slayer of Beasts, Charmer of the fair sex, ...... and sometimes changer of the diaper..... | |||
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I always try to get an exit row seat. I know how to open and detach the door. I can tell you what each door weighs on almost every type of aircraft. I do not want to rely on someone sitting there that has not paid any attention to the safety briefing and would know where to start if there was a problem. Most are sitting there for the extra leg room. I also if not in an exit row, count the number of rows of seats front and behind and look at the people that will be in the way between me and possible safety. I always leave my seat belt on. I have been in severe turbulennce many times and have worn dinner on me because of it, and instead of gripping about the cleaning bill, I thank the crew for getting my butt back on solid ground. I also wear long pants and shirts of cotton or flame resistant fiber. Paranoid???? No. If you ever survive an emergency landing, with gear up, you listen and prepare for what you can effect. Thanks for the advice. you can make more money, you can not make more time | |||
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lavaca, Good point on the seat belt sign on for the whole flight even when it's smooth. Here's the deal. Sometimes I'll be in an area where there are pilot reports of moderate or worse clear air turbulence (CAT). You can't see it you can't tell when or if it's going to hit you and if it does it can come on suddenly and violently. Many times you don't hit it and you are almost on the same flight path as the guy ahead of you who did. So that is a case where I'll weigh the risks of pissing off a few folks vs keeping them safe and leave the seat belt sign on. I personally will make a PA and explain the situation some pilots don't like to because of the nervous Nellys in the back who will put on the drama if they hear about the chance of turbulence. I like to keep my people informed. Here are the other unofficial reasons the seat belt sign gets left on. Crowd control, I've had the flight attendants request that I turn on the seat belt sign when they need folks to get out of their way. On some flights folks will tend to congregate back in the galleys or stand in the aisles and block our cabin crew from doing their job. hey I understand how bad it suxs to stay seated sometimes and i don't have a problem with folks standing when they need to on a longer flight but be cognizant of the cabin crew needing to move freely and unimpeded. If it gets out of control I'll turn on the sign for a bit to clear the aisles and the galleys at my cabin crews request. And of course there are those rare flights where we get busy upfront and simply overlook the sign. It happens, if you are in smooth air and the sign has not been turned off after a while push your flight attendant call button sand ask the attendant if she knows why the sign is still on and that you need to get up. They will call us up front and we'll turn it off if it's appropriate to do so. | |||
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We all like to be in control even if driving has about a 10,000% higher chance of getting killed than does flying on a commercial airline. It's kind of like going into surgery, once they put you out you are 100% at the mercy of the surgeons training and professionalism. Same same when they close that airplane door. That's why they don't just let anybody fly big jet airliners or do open heart surgery. It takes years of training and experience to get to the point where you are competent and professionally ready to do either. Do human mistakes and equipment failures happen? Sure they do but it's pretty rare in either case. Life is not without risk but air travel has become the safest form of travel there is due to training, experience and advances in technology. | |||
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505, There was a famous case where an airplane loaded with deadheading airline crew was forced to evacuate after a fire on take off roll and subsequent high speed reject. The entire full airplane was empty in under 45 seconds after it stopped. I believe it was a 727. It usually takes north of 90 seconds to do the same with paying PAX on board. Simply stated everybody on that airplane was trained and had a plan in mind just in case. As you mentioned it pays to be one of those guys if the ever the SHTF. | |||
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Surestrike: Great explanation. Thanks. | |||
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As an aside, it's still damn impressive that a plane could hit that kind of turbulence and at least shrug it off from an operational perspective. I personally book about 50 flights a year - mostly short hops but a couple 5 hour flights a year as well. The advice on being aware of your surroundings is absolutely spot on. Regards, Robert ****************************** H4350! It stays crunchy in milk longer! | |||
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Suestrike's comments are what passengers need to hear instead of the mamby-pamby PC blather. Make a plan for the "worse case", my motto. Drives my wife absolutely crazy but could make the difference. | |||
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Shit...I remember that United flight. You were on it??? I suggested to Delta that they install mockups of exit doors in the Delta clubs, then give people "competency tests." Those that passed it could bump others in the exit row. I further pointed out Delta could make it a marketing thing to assure other passengers - that the folks in the exit row knew how to remove the door. The Delta guy I suggested it to thought it was a fantastic idea. Apparently no one else did. One last point: turn off your friggin' mobile phone when the doors close. I make it a point to let those who hide their mobile phones from the FAs that any business they have is not worth the one in a billion chance of ending my life. | |||
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Many years ago, I had to fly a friend to New Orleans because his wife was having a baby earlier than expected. He hated flying, but had no choice if he wanted to get there quick. We were in a Piper Saratoga. There was a storm over New Orleans, and the flight ahead of us missed the approach because of torrential rain. I had the clipboard in front of me. We were on final approach, and we could see the runway as the rain has eased up, but lots of turbulence. The plane was going in every direction, the clip board was jumping and hitting me in the chi8n! My friend was screaming, but we made it to the runway. As we stopped the plane, I asked him "How long do you want me to wait for you?" He looked at me as if I have gone mad! "I am hiring a car and driving back to Houston! You can take off right now all by yourself!" "I think I will stop here for lunch, and go back in the afternoon." "Do whatever you like. But don't include me in your FLYING plans! EVER!" | |||
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OK going down this road off topic slightly, but only to illustrate the OP's point. Flew from Harrisburg PA to Pittsburgh one spring afternoon, thru a passing front. My seatmate was a guy with 1000's of hours in C130's, retired Lt Colonel, academy grad, great guy, ran this company I did a lot of business with. Most of his social friends were ex mil pilots, after spending a week with them, hearing stories of Bad Things in the Air, seeing class pictures with many faces x'ed out, the stage was set. Ed's stories about flying in to Ke Sanh were very sobering. Took off, had our drinks in hand ( sitting in aft row, smoking was till OK then) Started to get a bit bumpy, Ed looks out the window says "it's OK, just moderate turbulence". It gets a bit worse, wings are flapping quite a bit now, they take our drinks away, Ed leans out again, "hmmmm, Mikee, this is pretty severe turbulence. no worries though, the plane can take it OK" Turning into the long final for Pittsburgh, it get's VERY hairy, I can see the runway over THERE out the side, when, while we are turning, we take about 2000 ft drop, sideways, now I see the runway way too close, pilot has redlined the engines, and Ed, tried to stand up and scream, but no sound came out. I figured, crap, if he is scared, this is Not Good. Pilot goes around again, makes landing the second try, we head straight to the lounge for reinforcement. DO we get on the plane to Houston and fly back thru that or not? We did, and it was completely smooth, got home to momma and kids, but that 30 minutes in the front was quite a ride. Very instructional on what airframes are capable of, but don't want to try again. Surestrike and you other pilots on here, can you please add some info? What has changed so much in last 20-30 years, I hardly ever get the rough rides now I might have gotten in the 1980-1990 time frame? Better forecasting, better radar in the plane, better info sharing with preceding flights? Master of Boats, Slayer of Beasts, Charmer of the fair sex, ...... and sometimes changer of the diaper..... | |||
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Another great thread. Surestrike: Appreciate the cabin info, very informative. I've flown quite a bit in small planes. Almost every flight I've been on has experienced some type of bumps or dips in the road. Even the big planes. I keep the belt on when seated and only make a trip to the head when badly needed. So far the only time I've seen a bad bump was in a four seater. I was right seat at the time, wife and her 400# cousin in the back seat. He hit his head on the roof and ruined his first ever plane ride. When headed to basic at Ft Leonard Wood. We flew from Denver to KC and got on a 19 passenger ride to post. Circling that tall radio/tv tower we hit a downdraft in the middle of the night and lost around 1100' starting not much over 1500'. It was totally weightlessness dropping and we all knew we were gonna hit ground before it let up. Thankfully we hit a real nice soft cushion at the bottom and made a fine landing. That was back in Jan '71. My first flight in a big bird I was seated over the R wing and it amazed me to watch that birds wings flapping in the air, seeing ripples in the top skin running full length of the wing. Even if it's not the safest place to be, I always ask for a window seat ahead of the wing as I really like to see out and watch where we're going. Besides it's much quieter up front than back beside the roaring engines. My hearing is bad and the constant noise makes my ears ring for hours afterward whenever I'm subjected to loud noise. When it's loud enough and long enough you're damaging your hearing I don't care what creates the noise. Thanks everyone for your posts. George "Gun Control is NOT about Guns' "It's about Control!!" Join the NRA today!" LM: NRA, DAV, George L. Dwight | |||
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I fly to and from the islands, usually Maui or Kauai, yearly and have done for the past 26 years. I cannot believe the number of people who fly in flip-flops or sandals. Folks, bare feet don't work for s*it in a plane crash, where sharp thingies and thingies on fire may be in great abundance. I always wear athletic shoes that remain on my feet until well after takeoff. BTW, I landed in the islands shortly after incident where the roof had peeled back on the Aloha plane, and sucked passengers out, some years ago and taxied past it; not a nice sight. Seat belt? Hell yeah! Mike ______________ DSC DRSS (again) SCI Life NRA Life Sables Life Mzuri IPHA "To be a Marine is enough." | |||
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