Is the concept of "art" relevant to the hunting rifle, or is it a perversion? After all, the hunting rifle is a tool for killing stuff, and getting the owner out of the house and into the outdoors.

Seems to me that engraving, and extra fancy walnut, etc., is like painting a tank lavender with flowers and murals and such, and calling it a work of art.

What do you think?

KB

quote:

What do you think?

I think you should hunt your way and with the guns you like.....the rest of us should do the same!

Hummmm. Interesting. I looked again, and I don't see the word "should" anywhere in my starter post.

Thanks for your input. Although I didn't think about it exactly from that perspective, I believe I made that decision sometime way in the past. Perhaps we all did.

It's just that all this pining and lamenting and gushing over so-called art and firearms somehow amuses me and disgusts me at the same time. I'm wondering if others are so conflicted?

KB

quote:

all this pining and lamenting and gushing over so-called art and firearms somehow amuses me and disgusts me at the same time. I'm wondering if others are so conflicted?

Can we say the same for women?....Are some merely tools?.....Do we all see them the same?....

Does one think of his rifle the same as a garden rake?...maybe the same as his pickup truck?....

There are all matters of personal preference.

I have never owned a Remington 788 or a bolt action Savage....I like to take a bit more pride in my guns.....having said that....I can assure you that I've never looked down on anyone I was hunting with if he thought of his rifle as a simple tool.....as long as he handled it safely.

There are two sides here...
1. what does one like to hunt with
2. How does one see others that don't see it the same as he doe.....

Live and let live....

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
There are two sides here...
1. what does one like to hunt with
2. How does one see others that don't see it the same as he doe.....

Live and let live....

OK, that's what you interpret the question to be about.

Maybe.

Another two sides:
1. But maybe it's about attaching emotion to the gun. I can see emotion re women, but a gun?
2. Guns don't have ideology - people do.

KB

If one buys a hundred thousand dollar watch or desk clock from Cartier(BTW,I don't have one neither do I wear a watch)you can bet the entire thing will be handmade and beautiful!

I think that when there is emotional input into a rifle by the owner especially if it is by direct hands on work, then the lines blur between a work of art and a work of the heart. My most used rifle is the 7x57 I did a lot of the periferal metal work and all of the stockwork and there is more satisfaction in looking at and handling it than most of my others in the safe. I am rarely without a rifle placed to enjoy looking at whenever I am relaxing in the lounge so I guess it takes the place of art in my mind even if it may not in someone elses, the same way a painting may appeal to one and not another.It is also the rifle I take every time I go to my range to burn a bit of powder and almost every time I hunt so it is also a tool, but a tool I enjoy for its apearance as well. It may not have any of the fancy engraving or gold inlays that may be associated with art but its lines and style in blued steel and walnut please me imensely.

Von Gruff.

I actually feel sorry for the person who thinks of his rifle as only a tool. Sure, it IS a tool, but a tool can also be either beautiful and graceful or blocky and awkward-looking.

The addition of beauty and other aesthetics to an otherwise plain & workmanlike tool can only make the tool better for the appreciative user. And the appreciative user IMO surely gets a considerable positive feeling when admiring the beauty of the tool he's using, in addition to the satisfaction of handling the tool itself.

Question: why NOT make the rifle an art object? At least in a small way, so as not to distract attention or reduce functionality?

SURELY you don't think that a little engraving will make you a sissy?
Regards, Joe

Your hunting pickup should never be so pretty that you won't take it where the elk are, because you don't want to get the paint scratched. Same thing for a rifle. If it's too pretty (or valuable, or means to much to our heritage) to get scratched, it shouldn't go hunting. Where each of us decided to draw that line, is an individual choice. I might not be into fancy walunt, but some of mine have been put togethter by true ARTIST, and they are among the first that I reach for.

Forgetting the very simple fact that we no longer need to hunt for food, and that the rifle is a symbol of our passion for the hunt, and that we hunt from that said passion of-the-chase, which is deeply connected to the past of our species...


How far back do you want to go?
Surely this very question has been asked for centuries in one form or another, and probably was first asked in a dimly lit cave while it was raining outside and one caveman started notching or crudely carving on the piece of wood his stone implement was tied too.

Get the point?

Some like it, some do not see a reason for it and still others are just bored because it is raining outside.

To each their own.

God bless variety, if we all thought of every device as a tool would we ever have looked up at the moon and dreamed of a way to get there?

Why paint the space shuttle white? Why decorate it with our flag? Answer, to personalize it, to make it our own. It is not for everyone else in the cave.

There is form and there is function, depending on your perspective one will always follow the other, but which is first? Obviously anyone with sense would immediately say Function First.
But as humans we then dream of the form and how to make the said "tool" more pleasing to the eye, and might I add, to the hand, ie. the feel of the tool.
It is our nature and once it started there is no other place to take it than to the ultimate conclusion. As far as it will go.

After all, we want out of the cave!

Wow, good discussion and points.

I appreciate a fine firearm too.

Aside from that, much of my day-dreaming or wishful thinking about the rifle is the places I can go and the hunts I can do with it - and have done too, of course. It's not only the rifle, but where it makes me want to go.

Hopefully that makes sense.

KB

I like my tools functional and well made. Those requirements often result in an object of beauty, something beyond a mere tool. I also like things that some craftsman has had a hand in making. That he took pride in making and making better than just functional. I know it's trite but such objects have soul.

I have a rifle being made now by a gunsmith on this board. When finished I'll have a rifle that fits me and that has character given it by a man who knows and understands a rifle and how it should fit and function and knows how to make it beautiful. Simple lines and careful workmanship in fine wood and steel. It will be a using rifle and it will be a handsome rifle and I will take great pride in passing it to my son.

If you just want a tool well there are plenty of them available and they are fine tools for hunting but if that's all you see in your tools then you are missing something.

Jerry Liles

Jerry well stated. You also touch on a point that should not be overlooked to any of us with children to pass some things on to.

I have said it before, and I say it again here, imagine getting a gun from dad or granddad and it did not have wood and steel, both worn by his hands.
Sentimental value is simply too hard to place in tupperware stocks etc.

Of course I am biased, but I would also add my bias came way before my present position, in fact it lead to my present position.

Art has been part of guns from the begining. It's just human nature, people like nice things. For me a fine firearm in hand only adds to the enjoyment of the hunt.

Ever look closely at some of the cresents on M98 Mausers? Some of those are works of art and they were made for war.

I think a person can get carried way and put too much "art" on a rifle but that's just a matter of personal taste.

Terry

Well that depends if you're a hunter or a poser.

Kinda like the Accura commercial where those posers justify their extravagances.

Some think life's too short to hunt with an ugly gun. Nothing wrong with that. I used to think like that.

But experience dictates function over form. I'll spend my $ on a hunter over a safe queen.

The owner, not the rifle, determines what is a "safe queen" and what is a "hunter".

I see custom rifles first and foremost as a hunting tool .Art is secondary to me. However, a correctly designed classic stock is an geometric art/sculpture to me, but its art that has inheret practical purpose first & foremost. I dont go for embelishments that dont contribute to or improve the function,reliability & performance of the rifle.

To me there is field grade engraving and museum grade engraving.
High grade rifles with exceptional super fine bulino, belong behind glass for most of their life. Such work is just too beautiful to see degrade through wear & tear. I would prefer more durable/more course engraving for rifles that go afield regularly.

Has any one ever met a carpenter that appreciates art in his trade tools...ie; ever seen an Eastwing hammer with custom grip,engraving,gold inlay and rust blueing?

Francesca Fracassi



Francesco Amatori


Stefano Pedretti



Steve lindsay


Gianfranco Pedersoli

quote:

Originally posted by ForrestB:
The owner, not the rifle, determines what is a "safe queen" and what is a "hunter".

I always thought it was an Internet counsel that made that determination.

If it can't be used for fear of whisker scratches on the butt stock I don't want it.
Then it just becomes an object of workmanship. I have seen fine workmanship in all sorts of engineered products.
The artsy stuff does not belong on a serious firearm when it would pay for more memories.

quote:

The owner, not the rifle, determines what is a "safe queen" and what is a "hunter"...........I always thought it was an Internet counsel that made that determination.

Is that why we have so many cookie cutter clones on this site? And you think synthetic rifles are boring.....

This has been hashed out before on the synth. v. wood threads ad nauseum.

Again the OP asked is this Art or not: I vote no.

When it comes to guns I'll spend my $11K on an Echols Legend, Holehan Hunter or Sisk Hunter before I spend a penny on an ACGG clone.

Function and reliabilty over form. But then again, I'm not an ivory tower theorist- don't have thousands of posts or a lot of range time- I actually hunt.

Hmmm, Don't all Echols Legend rifles look the same, i.e. cookie cutter? We may need to run that by the counsel too!

BTW, I never said synthetic rifles were boring, nor did I ever whine about what anyone else's rifle looked like.

Nobody cares about your post count or what you do with your spare time. We all hunt, nothing special about that.

Terry

quote:

is like painting a tank lavender with flowers and murals and such, and calling it a work of art.

Kabluewy,
You answered your own question. Yes the tank is art. There are more then one kind of art, the tank happens to be folk art. Which is the emblesishment of the utilitarian. Fine art is more like a painting or sculpture.
Guns are complicated in this sense because they actually fit both arenas. I choose to call gun art as folk art. No less important then fine art.
Actually the whole subject is academic and stupid and I to have added to it. I think someone else already said it, paraphrasing, do what you want. What you want would make no difference to the rest of the world, you will have no impact on it.

I think it was Ettore Bugatti who said "beautiful engineering is a work of art"
I subscribe to that notion.
The art in a firearm can be in form, adornment or artistry in design and function. Preferably in all three areas.

My Daddy and My Uncle both cut their war teeth on bombers and fighters with plenty of nose art. Who would dare say that the shark's teeth on the noses of Clair Chennault's Flying Tiger P-40s were inappropriate?

Yes it's art and that particular art is something that helped to bolster morale in difficult times.

I can't afford many engraved guns but I hunt them regularly and I don't spare them in the bush. Same with all tools, they're made to be used but that's no reason why they can't be things of beauty as well.
Favorite 22RF squirrel rifle:

Favorite plains rifle:

Favorite CF small game rifle:


IMO if you're afraid to use the tool then either it's the wrong tool or you're the wrong user. Sure, my rifles all have scratches but so what? Each and every scratch carries a reminder of good times in the hunting or shooting field, and in my mind they are marks of character rather than abuse.
Regards, Joe

Well said Joe.

quote:

IMO if you're afraid to use the tool then either it's the wrong tool or you're the wrong user. Sure, my rifles all have scratches but so what? Each and every scratch carries a reminder of good times in the hunting or shooting field, and in my mind they are marks of character rather than abuse.

yeah, yeah, yeah,
Will you have the same attitude about a $25K rifle or shotgun?
Will you carry it through briars and dusty country? Use it when it is drizzling?
Burn the barrel out and put on a new one?

Folks who complain about cost and complexity of engraving on firearms usually cannot afford them

Those who can never ask about cost

They just do it

And usually they have the same firearms without engraving to bring to the field as well

I know and have known some very serious and expert big game hunters here in BC and Alberta and the "Territories", who have very plain and utilitarian, but, superbly functional rifles with which they have taken a lot of game. I have also known, many years ago, several older English gentlemen, who had hunted all over the globe and then chosen to retire in BC; some of these had worn Purdey's and other such gorgeous guns/rifles and they had taken a lot of game.

I do not think that it matters, use whatever YOU prefer and learn to shoot and hunt, that is what is really important!

In my youth, we made very good wages in the BC forest industry, if, you were man enough to do it and I loved fine custom rifles with gorgeous wooden stocks and engraving. Now, after decades of gun collecting, hunting, shooting and carrying purpose-built rifles for defence in Grizzly country while working, I have come to prefer rather plain Mauser-type rifles and have little interest left in the lovely custom pieces I once lusted after.

One can carry an engraved Hartmann and Weiss or a plain Echol's Legend, it makes no difference and many other simple rifles work as well, IF, you know what you are about in the bush. If not, one's fancy rifle will mark him as a "dude" and often, as a "poseur" with lots of coin, but, no bush skills or real experience.

I remember my grandfather had a nice s/s shotgun he always had hanging on the wall by its sling along with a Beretta semi-auto shotgun, a gift he had recieved.The s/s was a fine shotgun with nice wood and checkering,background against the beautiful mountains,the huge walnut tree in his yard, in his wonderfull sunsoaked outdoor-style country home,it looked at it as if it was art.So did the small wooden box that contained all his shotshell reloading tools.

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:

quote:

IMO if you're afraid to use the tool then either it's the wrong tool or you're the wrong user. Sure, my rifles all have scratches but so what? Each and every scratch carries a reminder of good times in the hunting or shooting field, and in my mind they are marks of character rather than abuse.

yeah, yeah, yeah,
Will you have the same attitude about a $25K rifle or shotgun?
Will you carry it through briars and dusty country? Use it when it is drizzling?
Burn the barrel out and put on a new one?

I'm a poor man nowadays but in the past have hunted hard with such names as H&H, Rigby, Fraser, G&H, Elsie Crown and similar. So, yes, I would and I already have. Different strokes for different folks, I also scratched up my brand-new F250 on the first day and My Teenage Daughter was distressed because it ".....didn't look NEW any more!"

Sorry about that, but I didn't get it just to LOOK good.
Regards, Joe

If someone can afford and is comfortable to hunt using high dollar rifles with the finest Bulino, and do so from the luxury of an Rolls Royce safari vehicle,then good luck to you!...

Rolls Royce Phantom hunting saloon. [from the Cartier "Travelling with Style" , vintage car show.]

Rolls Royce prepped for Falcon hunting- for an Arab Sheik

Maharajah of Rewa's Tiger hunting 1926 Daimler (with real silver panels)

1927 Rolls Royce Open ourer "hunting car"

Tiger strapped to Rolls Royce.

Bentley Hunting Cars.

Funny (to me) short story.

I hunted Antelope last fall in Texas and one of the hunters from way out east (Baltamore) had a custom rifle he showed off the evening before season opener.

Next day and 18 rounds later he killed a preaty good Antelope.

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:

Will you have the same attitude about a $25K rifle or shotgun?
Will you carry it through briars and dusty country? Use it when it is drizzling?
Burn the barrel out and put on a new one?

We see studio like photos of safequeens on AR, but rarely photos of those same rifles in the environments & conditions you mention.
Ive seen Phil Shoemakers walnut custom in the field, Harry Selbys well worn .416 Rigby, WDM Bells well used rifles, but not alot else.

TR Rosevelts .500/450 Holland & Holland sidelock, was refurbished by H&H. at one point in the rifles life,the forend was lost,requiring replacement. TR did not buy the rifle himself,it was the gift of 60 British admirers led by Edward Buxton. The donors included some of England's most prominent and respected men and women: naturalists, clergy, nobility, military officers, members of parliament, and F.C.Selous. Their names were recorded on a label attached inside the case next to the H&H trade label.

No doubt a good number of owners of such quality rifles are somewhat precious about them, and prefer to avoid putting them through the full spectrum of environmental conditions.

Regardless of my appreciation for finely executed metal,wood & engraving, I often prefer to go afield with rifles like an syn. Echols legend.
When I need to care about my rifle less, I seem to enjoy my hunting more.
I also prefer custom carbon fibre fishing poles over old world cane poles.

Here's one of my latest works of art. It started in my ownership as a barreled action, with a bent barrel from a 4-wheeler/teenager wreck.

I had it coated because I dislike the shiny stainless steel of Ruger. It's supposed to be dark gray and black, but the gray shows up with a lot of blue. It's a camera thingy. I tried to edit it out, but not successfully. I normally do all black coatings, but I just wanted to try something different this time.

It took a while to have it put together, but it does what I hoped it would do. This ain't no wall hanger or safe queen. I don't care if anyone who might inherit it considers it having any nostalga. I do expect it to last beyond my time, and I hope whoever gets it after that takes it hunting and enjoys it as much as I have already and plan for the future.





I can't show you a picture of the chamber, but it is a work of great craftsmanship all by itself. I can tell it's nice and tight, from the way the sized brass fits. Best word I can think of is sweet. I told the folks at PacNor that I wanted a chamber that was tight, but would still accept factory ammo. I said that I want to use 165gr bullets exclusively. This is a 12" twist rate barrel. I asked if a Palma reamer would be a good idea. They told me they had a reamer that met my request. The picture shows what they stamped on the barrel. They were right again. It is just what I was looking for. The throat is set-up for the 165gr Sierra Gameking.



This is a five shot group - 100 yds - off sand bags, before final scope adjustments - just testing loads. I can't explain the flyer. Maybe I pulled it. Maybe it's that darn range pick-up brass. Some of that stuff can be pretty rough, if initially shot in a AR, until fire formed to my chamber. The scope is a 2x7 Leupold VXII shotgun scope with the heavy cross hairs. I sent it back to Leupold to have it upgraded to accept the screw-in flip up covers. I have found that under 200 yds, shooting tighter groups with finer cross hairs and/or more magnification is only slightly easier.

One more thing that is encouraging is that the first shot - cold/clean barrel is in there with the other three. The flyer is not the first shot. I shot this group without waiting for the barrel to cool. I didn't hurry, but I didn't wait long between shots. That's the way I do it at some time during the initial testing. I want to see where the first shot hits, compared to those that follow, and I also want to see if the group spreads or walks as the barrel warms up. IMO, those are questions that need to be answered early in the process of sorting out what the rifle can do.

A couple of Hollands that DO get used....wild roosters and a whitetail I belly crawled a half mile through the prairie to get a shot at. A few scratches added along the way do not keep me up at night.

quote:

Next day and 18 rounds later he killed a preaty good Antelope

Sonofabitch that was one TOUGH antelope... ;-)

hello everybody. my name is Bud and i have a gun problem...i like gun porn

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:
Funny (to me) short story.

I hunted Antelope last fall in Texas and one of the hunters from way out east (Baltamore) had a custom rifle he showed off the evening before season opener.

Next day and 18 rounds later he killed a preaty good Antelope.

I have a similar one.....there was a hunter on a horse back pack-in elk hunt Montana who ran out of ammo trying to get his Remington ADL and Tasco scope on paper.....he had bought the gun at Walmart a couple of days prior to the hunt and bought one box of bullets. Good thing he was a smart fellow as he had bought a 30/06 and the outfitter just happened to have a spare box. Took him two days (ran out of light in day one) and a box and a half of shells to get the thing on paper.....and we aren't talking about a group here.....just hitting the paper was the mission.

quote:

Originally posted by AFreeman:
Why paint the space shuttle white? Why decorate it with our flag? Answer, to personalize it, to make it our own.

I dont think paint,artistry or personalization have anything to do with it.

The Shuttle has white tiles as a form of passive thermal control[reflect heat] to minimize absorbtion of solar radiation.

The black tiles do a much more important job....

Black dissipates heat buid up much faster than white,consequently, on re-entry to the atmosphere,black tiles do a far superior job of preventing the shuttle from burning up.

I confess I havn't read all of every post here but i think I get the gist of it. My opinion for what it's worth. A quality made firearm, good walnut and good finish is what I like. JD's low wall would be something I would use. Some of the beautiful rifles that I have seen Duane make for Forrest B, I would be afraid to use. My tastes run quite simple but I have a good solid appreciation for quality hand work that is done well. I guess what one person wouldn't be afraid to hunt with, I would be. On the other hand I may hunt with something that another may feel would be too much to risk. I also feel like a fine rifle is much more than a tool and feel sorry for someone who can't appreciate the art in fine workmanship. If that is synthetic and stainless or rust blue and a grand worth of walnut. DW