I imagine that early hunters decorated their bows, and perhaps the arrows too with art. I've seen some pretty elaborate slingshots. I think the Japanese swords and bows were all endowed with art. I suspect that in those cases, the art was also an expression of the owner of the weapons, and in some cases put there by the owner.

I suspect that those examples of weapons which have survived the centuries, and we see now in pictures and display, can count their survival because they were works of art, and thus not actually used by the owners.

To me there is a dividing line between craftsmanship/skill and art. I think that anything that is an embellishment on a firearm, to look good, with no other function, may be art.

I used to lust for a FN Mauser in 7x57. It goes way back to my college days when I couldn't afford one. I used to visit Chuck's Firearms when I would go to Atlanta, because he usually had a variety of new FNs on the rack. I suspect that he wiped the drool off those that I handled after I left.

So, about 4 years ago, I got a good deal on a custom FN in 7x57. It had one of the nicest - best made - prettiest walnut stock I've ever seen. I think the blank all by itself probably sold for what I paid for the whole rifle. The inletting and checkering were perfect. There was no filling or glass in the channel or anywhere on the inletting. The rifle had some metal work flaws, but I had that fixed. That's why I was able to buy it for less than what it was actually worth, and certainly far less than what it cost to put together.

I kept it about a year, and somehow it got a ding or two, although I tried to be careful. I worried over those dings so much that I decided it was too much. So, I sold it and with the proceeds I bought four other rifles, which I enjoy a lot more. One of the new rifles is a CZ 550 in 7x57, and another in 7x64. I have never missed that FN 7x57. I'm sure glad that I got that out of my system, and moved on.

KB

Visually pleasing decoration and embellishment is not the same as art.

Art is: "The expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture, producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power".

The very few firearms produced "primarily for their beauty or emotional power" can be stunning works of art and should be appreciated in the same way one appreciates a fine painting or sculpture.

At the other end of the spectrum are firearms produced without any regard to aesthetics such as the AK-47 and M-1 carbine. Today there is no good reason to use walnut in a firearm when laminates and synthetics are better from an engineering standpoint. But most people enjoy a nice piece of walnut on a rifle. A gracefully grained stock with hand checkering is a nice embellishment. It feels better, smells better, and looks better but it doesn't amount to a work art. The same goes for engraving. How boring it would be if all the shotguns ever made had flat, blued, surfaces without anything engraved on them.

The vast majority of firearms made rest somewhere between those created as true art and those that are totally bland and utilitarian. Will you look down your nose at a Ruger No. 1 because it has a gold band around the barrel? Will you snub an O/U shotgun because there is a grouse etched on the locks? Do you feel disdain when you see case colored receivers, scrolled borders, interesting checkering patterns, paneled bolt knobs, ebony forend tips, or leather covered recoil pads? Most shooters do not.

Firearms are made to suit the purchaser and the fact of the matter is that most purchasers want a firearm with some degree of decoration. All you have to do is take a quick look at what is offered by the major manufacturers to see this. Nearly all manufacturers offer purchasers varying degrees of decoration, all priced accordingly.

Firearms are made to be shot. If you have firearms you won't shoot because you are afraid they will depreciate in value then you should get rid of them and relieve yourself of the anxiety. Unless of course they were purchased "primarily for their beauty or emotional power". Yet, truth be told, if a firearm is of "best" class, in both workmanship and decoration, it will retain its value regardless of being used in the field.

What Grenadier said.

In addition, I find that the embellishment of my rifle makes a significant positive contribution to my enjoyment of both the hunt and the ownership of the rifle.

The actual hunt itself, for me, would be a much less fulfilling experience if I couldn't admire the beauty of my rifle during interludes. Sorry, I just can't get worked up over a Plain-Jane appearance.

Same with the periods before and after the hunt. It's very enjoyable for me to plan any hunt, and the enjoyment is increased by pulling out the rifle to admire its beauty/embellishment and imagine how I'll use it on The Day. And the hunt's aftermath is even sweeter when I can put down my glass and take up my rifle to admire its beauty/embellishment along with its performance.

If all I wanted was to kill the animal, why then an H&R would do just fine.

But no braggin' rights and no pride of ownership and no warm feeling when handling it.

IOW no pleasant stimulation of the finer and more enjoyable aesthetic senses, at least not for me.
Regards, Joe

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
The very few firearms produced "primarily for their beauty or emotional power" can be stunning works of art and should be appreciated in the same way one appreciates a fine painting or sculpture.

I would classify a lot more firearms produced for their emotional power, rather than their beauty. Also, "art" is in the eye of the beholder.

So, we agree that it isn't likely that someone would drag a fine (and valuable) painting or sculpture around with them, proud of the scuffs and dings, but instead hang it on a wall or display it somewhere. Likewise with firearms embellished with art? If not, what's the difference?

I find it hard to believe that the average guy, given the choice, would pack around a $20,000 piece af art, in the form of a rifle, rather than take a Ruger, for example, on a rain and mud soaked moose or bear or caribou hunt in Alaska. Is the "emotional power" on the firearm or the experience of the hunt, or perhaps both, depending on the circumstances?

Now, I can see a gentleman's hunt, flushing ruffed grouse and phesants, or sitting in a deer stand, and using the artful shotgun or rifle.

I have my good weather, down south, rifles with walnut stocks, and some all weather - all conditions rifles. I think neither are classified as art. If I had a rifle that was art, and hauled it around with me, I really think I wouldn't enjoy it any more than those I do have, and I would most likely enjoy it less, because I would be worrying about it all the time, rather than getting into the experience.

Seems to me that some people like fluffy thingies, and some recognize it for what it is.

KB

Sure enough, I like classy rifles and shot guns...I also like my Russel handmade boots, my Bausch and Lomb sunglasses, my Leica binoculars, my Cabela's tent, my brand new Chev 4WD, my Mike Williams knife..Maybe all these things could be replaced with
cheapo "cousins" that would work just as well.

But... I ain't afraid to scuff my boots. I'm careful with my binoculars and try not to misplace my sunglasses. My knife gets a little blood on it, I'll certainly crash throug brush with my truck if need be...but I don't purposely abuse any of these things.

Oh yes., I also enjoy a dram or two (or more) of single malt. What's life without a few luxuries?

A thing of beauty is a joy forever. - John Keats

It is better to be beautiful than to be good, but it is better to be good than to be ugly. - Oscar Wilde

Love of beauty is Taste. The creation of beauty is Art. - Ralph Waldo Emerson

There is a road from the eye to the heart that does not go through the intellect. - G. K. Chesterton

The question of common sense is always what is it good for? - a question which would abolish the rose and be answered triumphantly by the cabbage. - James Russell Lowell

quote:

What Grenadier said.

With all due respect, I somewhat disagree.

I don't think that all firearms are made to suit the purchaser. Rather, many are made to suit the stockholders of the company.

Moreover, I don't think that Mr. Grenadier is qualified to tell anyone else that they should get rid of their firearms if they are afraid they will depreciate in value if they are shot.
People buy things for many different reasons. They buy cars but don't drive them, the buy guns but don't shoot them, etc. The only person anyone is qualified to tell they should get rid of their firearms for any reason or no reason is their own self.

And finally, "visually pleasing", "stunning" and "emotional power" are all very subjective terms that can mean vastly different things to different people. What is "art" to one person may not be "art" to another person. What may seem creative to one may seem like junk to another.

Somebody) wants to communicate in a form other than words. They do what they do. They then give it to someone else (maybe YOU), hoping that you have some sense of what they saw or felt when they did it. It can never be exactly what they saw and felt becasue they aren't him/her. But if they appreciate it, then he/she succeeded.

Or in other words, one can "describe" art. A lot of folks make their living using big words and fancy notions doing so for museums and universities and newspapers. But true communication with art is silent. If its successful (if its art) it needs no words.

Poppycock, mere balderdash, WORDS ARE ART as Shakespear, Sophocles, Joyce, Tolstoy and myriads of lesser literary artists have made so obvious. I have read most of the works of these and many other writers and must disagree with "my learned friend" as barristers refer to one another in our British-derived legal system.

How can "art" be ...silent..., when one considers Beethoven, Mozart, Vivaldi, Chopin, Pavarotti, and on and on and on? Methinks, the gentleman's reach exceeds his grasp in this instance....

No offence, Kevin, just kidding ya a little bit as we ornery old Canucks are often inclined to do!

I agree with our learned friend. I also agree that words can be art, and they can also describe art. Some forms of art speak to us in ways other than words, spoken or written. In ways, mere words are insufficient to describe art, as it must be experienced in ways which are beyond the capability word's limitations.

Art appeals to the senses and emotions, and can enter those domains silently or with noise, as in music and the spoken words.

So, now I'm interested in a question and answer - relating to words.

"Imagination is the beginning of creation. You imagine what you desire, you will what you imagine and at last you create what you will."
George Bernard Shaw

Is the above phrase Aristotelian Syllogistic Logic, and perhaps using words as an art form? Or is it just an exercise in semantics?

Methinks the answer is within the learned gentleman's grasp.

OK - OK, it's a real question, not a spoof. It relates to something I'm working on. I think they teach stuff like this in law school, and practically every legal brief to a judge contains some of this type of logic, if it's syllogistic. I suspect our learned friend may be the only one on this forum who can answer the question. I think the answer is affirmative, but it could be flawed logic. I'm just not sure, however I think it's true. But the question is this an example of what Aristotel described?

I think it also relates to art. Perhaps it's word art, because it says something true, concisely, with linked sequential phrases, and says something about human nature, and also makes one think about it.

Perhaps it could be said even more concisely: "people rationalize". But it "sounds" better the way George wrote it, perhaps because he embellished it with art.

Which sentence draws your attention more, and makes you think about it more - what George wrote, or what I wrote in two words?

KB

quote:

WORDS ARE ART

I would prefer to say that the assembly of words can be art...the use of assembled words to describe any numbers of things.....such as excellent literature.....words in and of them selves are simply collections of letters.....nothing more!

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:

Visually pleasing decoration and embellishment is not the same as art....

Art is: "The expression or application of human creative skill and imagination, typically in a visual form such as painting or sculpture, producing works to be appreciated primarily for their beauty or emotional power".

..The very few firearms produced "primarily for their beauty or emotional power" can be stunning works of art and should be appreciated in the same way one appreciates a fine painting or sculpture.

... A gracefully grained stock with hand checkering is a nice embellishment. It feels better, smells better, and looks better but it doesn't amount to a work art. The same goes for engraving.

The vast majority of firearms made rest somewhere between those created as true art and those that are totally bland and utilitarian.

Will you look down your nose at a Ruger No. 1 because it has a gold band around the barrel?

Will you snub an O/U shotgun because there is a grouse etched on the locks?

As you say, ART is expression of creative SKILL[S] and imagination.

Some folk develop their imaginative/creative skills down to a fine art.

This can include stock making,checkering,shaping metal,engraving, making damascus steels with particular patterns.

The creative talents involved in the design & contruction of an fine Purdey or Boss&Co is an "engineering work of art/skill" in itself,well before any highly artistic elaborate engraving even goes near it.

When a stockmaker creates the best executed fine ribbon fluer de lis checkering, he is expressing his high level of artistic skills in something that also has utalitarian purpose. When he shapes and inlets the stock he is sculpting wood.

If you place a Blackburn BM next to an Echols unit. In an utalitarian sense, they do the same job,in an asthetic sense, they each have their own individual geometric expression in steel, = ART.

An engraver first intricately sketches up his simple or complex design, then tediously transfers it to the rifles metal or "canvas". This all involves individual creative skill, ..which is ART...No?

A custom rifle case by Huey or Rickards is a work of art.

Ralf Martinis integral featured barrels are a work of art.

In my view/perspective, this makes the results of such efforts, more than just, visually pleasing decoration & embelishment.

ART can refer to expressing/applying creativity and skills to just about any field.
EGs;
The Art of War
The Art of Design
The Art of Dance
The Art of Engraving
The Art of Dentistry
THe Art of Flight
The Art of Diplomacy
The Art of Conversation.
The Art of Seduction
The Art of Deception
The Art of Photography
The Art of fine gun making.
The Art of diamond cutting
The Art of Samurai sword making.
The Art of Tattoo.
The Art of hair design.
The Art of Mosaics
The Art of Fly Tying.


One can choose to be precious and protective about their art piece[be it rifle or painting], by not taking it out in the elements or harsh conditions, or... one can choose to take your Fine Bulino Purdey into the elements and carry your unframed Van Gogh in a plastic tube in your pack, and at the end of the long drizzly day, unroll it and hang it on the wall of your tent, for your personal viewing pleasure.

Our own Chic Worthing sums it up best. "Life is to short to hunt with an ugly gun."

I have invested a sizable amount of money and time into my Zollinger/Anderson custom M70. It has extremely beautiful wood and is an excellent example of both builders skills and talents. It has received its share of dings and marks and I dont feel the least bit bad about them. I built it to be beautiful and to hunt with. I dont believe in safe queens. But at the same time I have little interest in a rifle that sports tupperware or has a fencepost plain piece of wood. Whether it is exhibition english walnut or a remington 700 fencepost it is still just a piece of wood. Why treat it differently because it is pretty? I take very good care of my rifles but I do hunt with them and use them. That is why i built them.

To be afraid to use a gun because you might ding it is crazy. It is like saying you wont date a girl because she is too pretty. Whether it is guns or girls the better the look the happier I am.

If you look in the photos below you will the same rifle has been from AK to TX. 2 years ago in MO it was drenched for 3 days solid thanks to Mother Nature trying her best to repeat Noah's flood. it may be expensive art - but it sure is fun to hunt and shoot with.

quote:

No offence, Kevin

None taken.

Certainly literature can be great art.
And the words in that literature do commuicate.

But what I was refering to is that "otherness" that we sometimes feel that cannot be communicated because it is so personal to each of us. I hate to use the word because its so overused, but its kind of like "love". You can tell someone else you love them, but they can never know what you mean. All they can do is process that word, and decide what it means to them based on their experiences and their life. There is always that "hope" that what one believes love really means is the same thing that the other person believes. But we aren't hooked together by chords. We are individuals.

IN the same way with Art. You can describe great art to me, and I can hear those words. Those words might mean the same thing to me as they do to you. But maybe not. Surely the artist hopes that what he is trying to communicate is what the viewer receives.

But if I just experience the art and get some sense of feeling for it then it becomes personal to me. And if I do get some feeling for it, that otherness, then perhaps the artist has been successful, even if what he saw and felt when he created it isn't the exact same feeling that I felt when I experienced it.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
The question of common sense is always what is it good for? - a question which would abolish the rose and be answered triumphantly by the cabbage. - James Russell Lowell

A very apt comparison.

Some here can continue to TRY to glorify their cabbages but I for one will continue to admire and use my roses.
Regards, Joe

Rose or cabbage? It depends on whether you just want to look at it or looking for something for dinner. You can put the rose in a vase in the middle of the table, to look at, while you eat the cabbage. Both have their place.

KB

You can keep your cabbage and I wish you luck with it. Meanwhile, my rose will continue to supply me with both aesthetic enjoyment AND dinner!

If it doesn't perform then it has no place in my gun cabinet. By the same token, if it doesn't look good then its place will be FAR FAR in the REAR of the cabinet!

In some ways it's kinda like women. The shallow unthinking male will choose a woman who has EITHER good looks OR performance (thinking that he couldn't have both, apparently!?) while the more-discerning or perhaps more-patient male will choose a partner who has both qualities.

That doesn't mean that the 'beauty queen' and the 'wallflower' don't each have their place in the great scheme of things. Some prefer one, others prefer the other.

Still others (and I myself) prefer to have a more-complete package, looks AND performance!
Regards, Joe

quote:

Originally posted by M1Tanker:
Our own Chic Worthing sums it up best. "Life is to short to hunt with an ugly gun."

That may be the mantra to a gun collector, but the worst piece of advice to a hunter.

I forgot who said it, but "only accurate guns are interesting" is better. At least they feed and function correctly.

Art my ass, it's a fucking gun for the love of christ!


For the art collectors. Please feel to substitute:

It has a mauser 98 action....

The quarter rib was done by ___________....

It was stocked in the british stalking manner....

It is well balanced and fits like a glove...

And my favorite it handles gas better.......


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...6p_E&feature=related

The rose and cabbage was a good analogy, and the comparison to a woman is even better.

Beauty and art is in the eye of the beholder. I had a beautiful rifle and I also had a beautiful wife, once upon a time. They were both high maintenance, and the looks wore awefully thin, when the degree of careful handling and maintenance kicked in.

Frankly, I would rather have an ugly low maintenance wife than a high maintenance pretty one. No wife at all beats misery.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
.....

Seems to me that engraving, and extra fancy walnut, etc., is like painting a tank lavender with flowers and murals and such, and calling it a work of art.

What do you think?

KB

I think your analogy is BS!

quote:

Originally posted by FMC:

quote:

Originally posted by M1Tanker:
Our own Chic Worthing sums it up best. "Life is to short to hunt with an ugly gun."

That may be the mantra to a gun collector, but the worst piece of advice to a hunter.

I forgot who said it, but "only accurate guns are interesting" is better. At least they feed and function correctly.

Art my ass, it's a fucking gun for the love of christ!


For the art collectors. Please feel to substitute:

It has a mauser 98 action....

The quarter rib was done by ___________....

It was stocked in the british stalking manner....

It is well balanced and fits like a glove...

And my favorite it handles gas better.......


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...6p_E&feature=related

Apparently you missed the key word in that phrase - "life is too short to HUNTwith an ugly gun." I am in no way a collector. I like my guns to have pretty wood and be accurate also. If it is not both I dont want anything to do with it.

And the whole idea that a pretty gun is high maintenance is nuts. it takes no more care for a custom rifle than it does for a Savage 110.

A plain boring rifle is like a moped and fat girl. Both are fun to ride but who wants to be seen with either one.

My question would be, what is "ugly".

Kabluey

What was that song, "if you want to be happy for the rest of your life, never make a pretty woman your wife"!

quote:

A plain boring rifle is like a moped and fat girl. Both are fun to ride but who wants to be seen with either one

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
My question would be, what is "ugly".

What was that song, "if you want to be happy for the rest of your life, never make a pretty woman your wife"!

Darn good question. I missed that one. Obviously, if beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so is ugly. Perhaps I used the wrong word. Now that you mention it, beauty and ugly is not just a matter of eye appeal, but goes deeper into what one appreciates more. To me, high maintenance in a rifle or a woman is ugly stuff, regardless of outward appearance.

Life is too frigging short to live with a high maintenance rifle or woman.

You can quote KB as having written that.

KB

Let's face it. Everyone has their own threshold on this topic.

I assumed KB's question was concerning custom built rifles, not factory productions.

There are definitely some factory rifles that are junk and I wouldn't own or hunt with. I also own some nice looking, great functioning factory rifles that are a pleasure in all aspects.

But as far as the custom built rifle goes, or any one for that matter, there is a threshold probably set by a cost factor that I have for use and treatment. The custom rifles I own are built for use in whatever environmental conditions occur. Cerocoated metal, injection moulded McMillan stocks, etc.

Do I treat them differently than the factory rifles I own? You bet. I would feel differently about dropping the factory as opposed to the custom? You bet. Cost.

Now throw the $8,000 custom wood stocked, fully engraved rifle in the mix. I would feel much worse about dropping it as opposed to the customs I have now. Also, the damage would be much more evident on a rifle like that as opposed to a McMillan stocked Cerocoated custom.

Some women are built for it and some aren't.

quote:

Do I treat them differently than the factory rifles I own? You bet. I would feel differently about dropping the factory as opposed to the custom? You bet. Cost.

Now throw the $8,000 custom wood stocked, fully engraved rifle in the mix. I would feel much worse about dropping it as opposed to the customs I have now. Also, the damage would be much more evident on a rifle like that as opposed to a McMillan stocked Cerocoated custom.

Interesting. A lot of people say the very same thing. And yet, they beat the hell out of their $40,000 4 x 4s when they go out hunting.

The $8,000 gun probably lasts a lifetime, or more. The $40,000 pickup is traded off when it has about $10,000 value left. 5-7 years maybe.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:

quote:

Do I treat them differently than the factory rifles I own? You bet. I would feel differently about dropping the factory as opposed to the custom? You bet. Cost.

Now throw the $8,000 custom wood stocked, fully engraved rifle in the mix. I would feel much worse about dropping it as opposed to the customs I have now. Also, the damage would be much more evident on a rifle like that as opposed to a McMillan stocked Cerocoated custom.

Interesting. A lot of people say the very same thing. And yet, they beat the hell out of their $40,000 4 x 4s when they go out hunting.

The $8,000 gun probably lasts a lifetime, or more. The $40,000 pickup is traded off when it has about $10,000 value left. 5-7 years maybe.

Therein lies the difference. I do beat the hell out of my $6K .270 (wooden) ACGG custom (or any of them), my $4K (synthetic) Sisk, and my $14K (wooden) Holehan and plan to do so with my other 2 (wooden) Holehans when they arrive in a few months.

I bought those rifles to hunt with, not take out of the safe and jack off to....

I buy rifles from those guys because they are first and foremost hunters (and guides), not "artists." Shit I could buy twice/thrice as many ACGG artsy fartsy guns for the price of my plain jane customs, but I wouldn't do that for anything.

Again, the question is not is a synthetic Legend worth $11k but is an artsy gun even worth the $8K.

I say absolutely to the former and fuck the latter. (By the by- wooden custom guns depreciate worse in value than a friggin car)

I want a rifle that is accurate and functions flawlessly (which I cannot say my 4 ACGG guns were when I received them til I had them fixed by competent smiths. Thanks Kevin Weaver, Speedy Gonzales and Mark the local gunshop tinkerer).

With custom guns you get what you pay for- you want art, ok. Me? I'll take function over form any day of the week.

quote:

Therein lies the difference. I do beat the hell out of my $6K .270 (wooden) ACGG custom (or any of them), my $4K (synthetic) Sisk, and my $14K (wooden) Holehan and plan to do so with my other 2 (wooden) Holehans when they arrive in a few months.

I bought those rifles to hunt with, not take out of the safe and jack off to....

It then boils down to what is relative to each individual.

14K in your eyes is probably like 1K in my eyes.

I would not "beat the hell" out of my $3500 rifle and be fine with it. Hell, I even try to avoid beating the hell out of my $1000 rifle, but would feel a lot different about the same stock or metal damage that happens to each one.

If a guy is fine with "beating the hell" out of a rifle or any piece of equipment that costs 14K, he has more money than sense.

That's not a slam either, just means you must have a HELL OF A LOT OF MONEY!

Bill a 2 hour boat ride does not count as a tough Alaska Bear hunt LOL... Come with us on a 10 day moose hunt 30 miles back in some of the toughest country ever... I hunt wiht a plain jane ulgy ruger 77 mkii stainless in a 338 no frills rifle. Oh wait the only way non-residents cna hunt unit 13 is through the draw so you better put in for it next year. Bring yoru purrty rifle to LOL. I love wood and blue but some of these hunts I go on I would not think about dragging a rifle around most of the time it is slung around your back or in a gun case getting beat to all hell. Just my two cents on this... Sure life is to short to hunt with an ugly rifle but life would really suck when you are gettign mauled by a bear because that purrtty rifle has a broke stock lol.

Mr. Steele, once again, I hope we get to meet one day. Function & Form in wood and steel == low maintenance beauty & brains w/ women.
Perfect analogy !

quote:

Originally posted by M1Tanker:
Our own Chic Worthing sums it up best. "Life is to short to hunt with an ugly gun."

I have invested a sizable amount of money and time into my Zollinger/Anderson custom M70. It has extremely beautiful wood and is an excellent example of both builders skills and talents. It has received its share of dings and marks and I dont feel the least bit bad about them. I built it to be beautiful and to hunt with. I dont believe in safe queens. But at the same time I have little interest in a rifle that sports tupperware or has a fencepost plain piece of wood. Whether it is exhibition english walnut or a remington 700 fencepost it is still just a piece of wood. Why treat it differently because it is pretty? I take very good care of my rifles but I do hunt with them and use them. That is why i built them.

To be afraid to use a gun because you might ding it is crazy. It is like saying you wont date a girl because she is too pretty. Whether it is guns or girls the better the look the happier I am.

If you look in the photos below you will the same rifle has been from AK to TX. 2 years ago in MO it was drenched for 3 days solid thanks to Mother Nature trying her best to repeat Noah's flood. it may be expensive art - but it sure is fun to hunt and shoot with.

M1, once again, what a fantastic hunting rifle. What is it chambered for again?

quote:

Originally posted by aliveincc:
Mr. Steele, once again, I hope we get to meet one day. Function & Form in wood and steel == low maintenance beauty & brains w/ women.
Perfect analogy !

Thanks, alive!

Maybe it has something to do with patience or experience or maybe both. I didn't meet My Bride 'til I was almost 40 and we've been together for the last 25 years. The original deal was that she would hafta pay all her own bills and also do all the yard work (but I DID eventually buy her a riding mower, grin). I won't brag on her looks except to say that she looks better than all her contemporaries at her job and she's still 5'2" and 36DDD with long curly hair and a cute figure. Nowadays we hire the yard work done but she still pays all her own bills and half of mine.

Took me a lotta years, I had to go through a lotta rifles but I didn't hafta 'settle'. Grin.
Regards, Joe

quote:

Originally posted by J.D.Steele:

quote:

Originally posted by aliveincc:
Mr. Steele, once again, I hope we get to meet one day. Function & Form in wood and steel == low maintenance beauty & brains w/ women.
Perfect analogy !

Thanks, alive!

Maybe it has something to do with patience or experience or maybe both. I didn't meet My Bride 'til I was almost 40 and we've been together for the last 25 years. The original deal was that she would hafta pay all her own bills and also do all the yard work (but I DID eventually buy her a riding mower, grin). I won't brag on her looks except to say that she looks better than all her contemporaries at her job and she's still 5'2" and 36DDD with long curly hair and a cute figure. Nowadays we hire the yard work done but she still pays all her own bills and half of mine.

Took me a lotta years, I had to go through a lotta rifles but I didn't hafta 'settle'. Grin.
Regards, Joe

So in other words, your a loser.

quote:

Originally posted by FMC:

... I do beat the hell out of my $6K .270 (wooden) ACGG custom (or any of them), my $4K (synthetic) Sisk, and my $14K (wooden) Holehan and plan to do so with my other 2 (wooden) Holehans when they arrive in a few months.

...I buy rifles from those guys because they are first and foremost hunters (and guides), not "artists."...

...Again, the question is not is a synthetic Legend worth $11k but is an artsy gun even worth the $8K....

...I say absolutely to the former and fuck the latter.....

...With custom guns you get what you pay for- you want art, ok. Me? I'll take function over form any day of the week.

FMC,
P.Holehan may be first and foremost a hunter, but he is still an artisan in the trade.
Despite how purely functionally built you believe your Holehan rifles to be, they are still an expression of artistic talent.

From the Holehan website;

"Custom rifles- craftsmanship in every detail."

"Custom rifles built to reflect the highest degree of craftsmanship and artistic expression."

From my perception, Patrick Holehan considers his rifles a product that results from the efforts of an "artist".

Bodington describes an Holehan rifle as being a mix of both functionality and art. HERE.

If I was committed to building purely functional rifles, I would not bother with unnecessary fancy grades of walnut & fancy ribbon fluer-de-lis checkering, like Holehan does. Holehan also provides an engraving service if desired.

Artisan [def]
- a person skilled in an applied art
- A skilled manual worker who practices some trade or handiwork; a craftsperson
- One trained to manual dexterity in some mechanic art or trade.


Craftsman [def]
- an artist skilled in the techniques of an art or craft.
- a member of a skilled trade; someone who practises a craft; artisan.
- any highly skilled, technically dexterous worker,who creates or performs, especially in the manual arts.


Essentially, an artist/artisan/craftsperson are one in the same thing.

quote:

Oh yes., I also enjoy a dram or two (or more) of single malt. What's life without a few luxuries?

Bloody boring mate

I love custom guns and wood stocks. I have a safe full of them. I personally like the ones I build much more than ones I bought, simply because I made them and then I get to use them. I simply like the mystique of the whole thing.

I guess where I leave the train is when we get too wound up calling a lot of it art. As stated somewhere above, most of it is really craftmanship. I truly appreciate it for what it is, and stand in awe of what it takes to do it. However, there is really not a lot of art involved as a general rule. You see a beautiful custom, and chances are it has a shadowline cheekpiece, an ebony forend tip, a steel grip etc. As the price goes up, it will have square bridge mounts (why?) and expensive bottom metal which from 4 feet looks exactly like the stock metal it replaced (or it has even more expensive dropped box bottom metal which from four feet looks exactly like english bottom metal from 1920.) The workmanship is incredible, but, except for falling into a certain style, it all really looks boringly similar.

A year or so ago I bought a german 14 ga shotgun built in 1898. It had a sliding barrel drop open action, damascus barrels which were fitted with matching damascus top and bottom ribs. The chamber area and rear half of the barrel were made with built in tiny re-inforcing ribs. The breech and chamber areas had tiny engraved flowers and vines which were gold filled and still shiny after 112 years. Action engraving was high relief germanic. The triggerguard was carved from a single piece of horn, the bottom of which contained an ornate Celtic knot design. The stock was made from a beautiful piece of walnut.

As bizzare as this gun sounds, it is beautiful. From its looks, it was used for most of its life, bit taken care of. This gun is unique, and has several features I have seen no where else. They were executed beautifully, yet the gun was practical enough to have survived 110 years of hard use. At some point, someone even reamed the chambers to 12 gauge, likely due to lack of ammo, without opening the barrels.

This gun is truly art. Of the other 70-80 guns I own, I don't really think I have any other which is. I have many that appeal to me more, and several that have better materials and workmanship, but they are all simply quality guns, not art.

Londons finest Artisans - inside the Purdey workshop.

"some people describe these as functional art,that is very close to what I would describe this as." - Nigel Beaumont,MD Of Purdey.

[QUOTE] "The Purdey Artisan is the absolute master of his craft"

[QUOTE] "Every Purdey Artisan has had a minimum of 5yrs apprenticeship in the fine art of gun making"


Purdey-woodward U/O in Damas steel

Pilgrimage to Purdey.

Artisan’s Legacy Lives On

"Brent Umberger practiced his trade as a master stockmaker for four decades. Sadly, he passed away a couple of years ago. However, the company he started, and the legacy of fine craftsmanship he created, are being carried on. In recent years, Brent worked with Adam Fraley and Jason Basham, training them in the fine arts of gunsmithing and stockmaking and sharing his expertise. After Brent’s passing, Adam and Jason purchased the business from Brent’s widow. Adam and Jason are now continuing the tradition of fine-crafted, hand-checkered wood stocks built from the finest woods available."

Modern Artisans still use their hands. Gunmaker Michael Louca,owner of Watson Brothers, London.

Inside the workshop of Watson Brothers.

"Gunmaker Michael Louca is the proprietor of Watson Bros, the last independently-owned gun and rifle manufacturer in London, originally established in 1885. Operating from a small workshop in Shoreditch, each year Michael and his close-knit team of employees craft around a dozen of the most superlative shotguns that money can buy. With a client list that includes the Sultan of Turkey and the Shah of Persia, Michael is incontestably at the top of his game.

Yet walking in off the street, you find yourself in a modest artisan’s workshop with three workbenches along one wall and all manner of well-worn hand tools on display. It is only upon second glance when you see the gun barrels and wooden stocks lined up, and the animal trophies peering down at you from the walls, that you realise the particular nature of this endeavour. Amongst the detritus of the workbenches my eye was drawn first to tiny metal plates with exquisite engravings upon them of birds in flight surrounded by scrollwork. The technique was breathtaking, and yet these were designed and custom-made for a single shotgun by Michael’s own engraver who works here on the premises. I was told as many as four engravers can work upon the decoration of a single gun. It was the first indicator of the extraordinary degree of application and skill that goes into the manufacture of these amazing pieces.

We are accustomed to the notion that machines are mass-produced, and so there is something quite startling in sophisticated hand-made mechanical devices such as these. Honed to scrupulous perfection and with an action that slides like silk, Michael’s guns seem alive. I never handled a gun before, but when Michael passed me a long shotgun that he took from a secure cupboard in the corner of his private office, I encountered a feeling comparable to the delight in a perfectly balanced kitchen knife in the hand, only amplified a hundred times – sleek, heavy and quick with life, as if it could spring from my fingers. It was a serious weapon, sleek and worthy of respect.

The authority and grace of these devices is derived from centuries of London gunmaking, and the manufacture entails long months of patient work by engineers who undergo a five year apprenticeship to learn the trade. “I grew up on a farm and I grew up shooting,” explained Bradley Hodgson who I spoke with first as he pored over the coffin-shaped metal chamber of a gun gripped in the vice at his workbench. Bradley who originates from the Lake District, has been here three and a half years, and now breezily calls himself a lock, single-trigger and ejector man. “Ninety per cent of the gun is handmade at the bench,” he confirmed proudly, “we make the pins that hold them together, we don’t even buy nuts and bolts. It’s just a beautiful end product, completely bespoke, and getting everything to work right – when you master it – that’s very rewarding.”

Next to Bradley worked James Brown, a nineteen-year-old apprentice who had been there just fourteen months. Both he and Bradley were concerned with painstaking intricate work, upon which Michael cast a discreet eye from the adjoining bench. “I’ve always liked guns,” James explained to me with bright-eyed enthusiasm,“I went into the army cadets at school and then I started clay pigeon shooting, so my dad suggested gunmaking. And I’m not going to change my job after this, it’s my life!” It was an extraordinary declaration, making me wonder how many other occupations could inspire such devotion today.

In the privacy of his upstairs office, away from the mess of the workshop, surrounded by a trophy bison, black bear and polar bear skins, and toting one of his prized shotguns, Michael opened his heart to me. “With our guns, no-one has to have one – it’s a want, a desire.” he said, articulating the intense emotional quality of these charismatic objects that incarnate power in your hands. “They do far more than their purpose, in the same way you might want to drive a Ferrari rather than a Mini.” he confided. “If you want to shoot a pheasant, how do you want to do it?” he asked, catching my eye with an implied challenge and posing a question that transcends the hypothetical for his customers, “It’s about what gives you pleasure.”

“I was always in the trade. I’d done an apprenticeship and I’d started working in the trade when I developed a new gun,” continued Michael, revealing the secret of his success – creating an over-and-under shotgun (with the barrels one above the other) that is as light as a side-by-side (with the barrels on either side). The trick of this innovation lay in Michael’s cunning design of a simpler ejector system, a patent that today is unique to Watson Bros and confirms Michael’s position as top gunmaker in London. Unlike many of his colleagues in the trade, Michael is a shooter. With three hundred gameshoots happening every week during the season Michael likes to be out weekly wielding his shotgun, and he told me it helps him to understand his customers better. All Michael’s guns are made to order, measured to fit their owners’ reach and handsize and in a style that reflects the customer’s taste.

To my untutored eye, I could make no distinction between guns made recently by Michael, those from the nineteen thirties and those the eighteen forties. All these designs appeared to be the near culmination of the perfection of form and function , and notions of modernity did not register in this arena. It did not appear either that Michael’s guns were old-fashioned – this was, equally, a meaningless notion in the context. But what was remarkable and inspiring to me was that guns can still be manufactured today with the accomplishment and skill that matches the masters of centuries past. The making of guns by hand is a vital living tradition at Watson Bros in Shoreditch."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/mone...09/jun/13/gun-making

How to make a Gun - In the making of the world's finest locks, stocks and smoking barrels, Jon Henley finds the truth is finer than fiction

"So how do you make a gun? Actually, you can't. Or at least, to make a top-quality bespoke sporting gun, you'd need to be a master mechanic, metalworker, woodworker, engraver and artisan , as well as knowing a bit about chemistry and a lot about ballistics.

You'd also have to be extraordinarily meticulous, utterly precise – tolerances in this business lie in that infinitesimal space between 1,000th of an inch and nothing – and at the same time possess a real artistic sensibility. You'd need, in short, to be several different people, which is why most gun makers only in fact make parts of a gun.

Gun making is a complex affair with many variables, but basically, says Paul West, a gunsmith for more than 40 years and now the man in charge of the process at leading Mayfair gun and rifle makers William & Son, gun makers are either barrelmen, actioners of various sorts, stockers, engravers or finishers.

Most are independent, working for more than one firm ("I've known 'em all for 20 years or more, and you'd never get 'em under one roof," West acknowledges.) That means that over the course of the 18 months or so it takes to complete, a William & Son gun will make its way round half the country, moving from one small, highly specialised workshop to another.

Closely supervised by West, it is a journey that involves more than 1,000 man-hours of painstaking work and will result, in the case of a classic side-by-side game shotgun, in a piece that will set its buyer back £38,500 – or rather more if he (and it invariably is a he) plumps for extras such as special engraving. Whatever you think of the purpose they are put to, these are as much works of art as they are weapons.

The barrel maker picks up the machined steel tubes, which he brazes together. He fits the ribs, and files to shape and weight. In the first stage of actioning, the barrels are jointed to the gun's action and the locks and cocking mechanism, extractors, lever work, bolts and spindles fitted. The second stage involves fitting the gun's "furniture" (essentially the trigger, trigger plates and guard), filing the whole action up and smoothing it for engraving.

The stocker fashions a chunk of high-grade Turkish walnut into the gun's stock. Stocks are made to measure: the cast (left- or right-handed), length and bend must fit the client exactly. The wood is "made off", or carved to its final shape, and the chequering – the fine grooves that assist grip – laid on by hand. The head and the action must be a seamless fit, the butt has to be shaped, and the whole stock bored out for weight and balance.

Next comes engraving: intricate "rose-and-scroll" designs are hand-­engraved into the metal, or entire game scenes of birds and wild animals can be created, with exquisite ornaments and inlays. This stamps the owner's personality on a gun, and some go to town: one Texan, West recalls, demanded (and got) a couple of naked ladies. Finally, the metal is cyanide- or colour-hardened, the gun regulated and tested, and the whole piece burnished to within an inch of its life.

William & Son makes just half a dozen new guns of this calibre each year. Such is the build quality of a well-made gun from a reputable British maker that, properly maintained, many still function immaculately – and change hands for several thousands of pounds – more than a century after they were made.

The gun making industry in Britain numbers maybe a dozen firms, from grand old names like Purdey and Holland & Holland to smaller, less celebrated outfits, and employs 80-100 people, West reckons. "You're making art, really," he says. "There's a mystique to this business, a history, a whole ethos. It's about quality, precision, the privilege of working with these materials. You learn your trade, then you can really express yourself – though you never stop learning. And like they say: I'd rather miss with a good 'un, than hit with a bad 'un."

I think I actually shoot better with a pretty gun.My favorite of all shotguns that I do best on quail with is a Grade VI Browning Lightening 28ga. I've used it for over 10 years now and it doesn't have a mark on it. I wear a Rolex watch regularly and it's a Quartz collector watch. I also wear it hunting. I have two custom rifles I had commisioned (only two I've ever HAD made, I normally build my own) and they weren't cheap and i have absolutel no hesitation taking either to field in fact one has been well used in Africa. I am careful with them in the field but i am careful with ALL firearms in the field. My binos are Swarovskis and I can assure you they are very well used. I like fine things and appreciate their beauty and value but first and foremost I love to use them for what they were intended,in my case the rifles were commissioned to hunt with, the watch purchased to tell me the time andthe binos to use to watch birds and other wildlife. I could of course do the same thing with a Remington rifle,a Timex watch and Bushnell binos but why should I have to because of what someone else thinks. The only 'ART' I have is several Hugh Cabot Oil paintings on the walls of my house.

Bailey Bradshaw just sent me pictures of my SS action and trimmings that he just got back from Turnbull. You can call/describe it however you want, but whatever you call it, you can't deny it's beauty and function. It WILL get hunted and I will grin every time I look at it.