Oh my! Many interesting words here. Some I can agree with and some I think are a bit misdirected.

Am an old retired guy. Spent too much time working too hard to dabble much in the construction of pretty firearms while I was making good money.

Since I retired I have a lot more time and much less funding so have gotten pretty "practical" about the rifles I play with. Pretty much Mausers with custom mounts I made, Gun-Kote finishes, fitted in synthetic stocks for use in not so nice weather. When they're finished they shoot and are eminently useful in the woods.

I very much like the robustness and looks of a rust blue and am learning to do that too.

All of this does NOT mean I do not appreciate the simply remarkable synergy that some wonderful gun makers achieve with lovely metal work, tasteful engraving, and fine woods. I do appreciate many of their efforts as examples of the finest useful art! Were I wealthy I would enjoy it at a much closer distance.

Would I hunt some of that art?

I do have some small experience making that decision. Was blessed by the ACGG group led by Chic Worthing who finished Maurice Ottmar's last rifle and by Dow Jones closing averages. Yes ... the Ottmar Rifle has been hunted VERY carefully and has taken a nice 8 point WV buck.

Is a proper completion of that gift in Maurice's memory and in his belief that works of art should be used. Gave me more appreciation of the gun maker's art and some lovely memories.

Well, I just got to look at my Bradshaw on the full screen. You look at the pictures and tell me it's not Art. Functional Art, but Art for damn sure.

Art is anything you see that you really, really like the instant you see it, but something you can't do yourself...

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by Art S.:
I guess where I leave the train is when we get too wound up calling a lot of it art. As stated somewhere above, most of it is really craftmanship. I truly appreciate it for what it is, and stand in awe of what it takes to do it. However, there is really not a lot of art involved as a general rule. You see a beautiful custom, and chances are it has a shadowline cheekpiece, an ebony forend tip, a steel grip etc. As the price goes up, it will have square bridge mounts (why?) and expensive bottom metal which from 4 feet looks exactly like the stock metal it replaced (or it has even more expensive dropped box bottom metal which from four feet looks exactly like english bottom metal from 1920.) The workmanship is incredible, but, except for falling into a certain style, it all really looks boringly similar.

As boringly similar as it may seem,theres good reason for that. Artistic creation is not always about radical departure.
Especially in the field of the refined art or "finnesse" of gun building [as in an Purdey,Boss,HartmannWeiss) where form and function have been near perfected, where radical departure offers no great functional or asthetic improvement, thus is neither required or desired.
Hartmann&Weiss have raised the bar/refined the art of constructing bespoke english style & design SxS and U/O shotguns and rifles.
Their aim is to refine the skills learned at Purdey,and they have been successful in the process.

Modern produced custom BM for bolt rifles may appear similar to some orig. commercial mauser units, however they can have improved materials,subtlely refined geometries and tighter tolerances. Expensive you say?...well, I dont believe the dropbox BM on orig. Rigby Oberndorf sqrebridge magnum mausers, were exactly inexpensive.

I guess what I am trying to say is that, in my mind, there are three categories which get lumped together somewhat. There are nice rifles, then rifles so superlative they leave no doubt as to the "art" of a truly exceptional craftsman, and then thirdly, real Art. When you see one of the last, you know it. I have seen this only a few times in my life around a lot of guns. Much as I lust after fine rifles and shotguns, I do think we overdo the assignment of the word Art. Sort of like kids now-a-days to whom anything and everything is "AWESOME!"

I wont attempt to categories one thing as being "real art" and another not, simply because artistic expression comes in boundless variations of individual forms of expression.
However, there are those who have achieved mastery through their highly developed skills & techniques applied to their chosen field or dicipline.
We often refer to such people as "masters".
ie; master gunmaker,master painter, master engraver,master Samurai sword maker,martial arts master, etc.
I would not say what they achieve is more real in terms of art, just more evolved or refined.
When we use the common statement like "he has got it down to a fine art" suggests that his work was still art before be he achieved refinement.
Then I suppose you have those that say "what a real work of art" as opposed to an "unreal" one ?

Rather than attempt to define what is "real" or "true" art, id rather embrace the benefits and purpose[s] of art, what ever its form.

Fine art or the fine arts [def]- an activity requiring a fine skill. - Art is often a synonym for fine art. Historically, the five greater fine arts were painting, sculpture, architecture, music and poetry, with minor arts including drama and dancing. Today, the fine arts commonly include the visual art and performing art forms, such as painting, sculpture, collage/assemblage, installation, calligraphy, music, dance, theatre, architecture, photography, conceptual art, and printmaking. However, in some institutes of learning or in museums fine art, and frequently the term fine arts as well, are associated exclusively with visual art forms.

It seems that bespoke gunmaking involves at least two concepts from the orig. "5 greater fine arts"

1./ Sculpture - shaping/forming of wood and metal.
2./ Architecture - the architects of mech.engineering design, who created the WR,Purdey,H&H/Woodward,Rigby/Beesely, patented features and designs.

Things like bespoke weapons and fine cermamic Ming dynasty vases,rather than being purely asthetic, belong more to the Applied Arts category.

Applied art is the application of design and aesthetics to objects of function and everyday use. The applied arts incorporate design and creative ideals to objects of utility.
The fields of industrial design, graphic design, fashion design, interior design, decorative art and functional art are considered applied arts.

History on the definition of Art

Classical Meaning of Art

The original classical definition - derived from the Latin word "ars" (meaning "skill" or "craft") - is a useful starting point. This broad approach leads to art being defined as: "the product of a body of knowledge, most often using a set of skills." Thus Renaissance painters and sculptors were viewed merely as highly skilled artisans (interior-decorators?). No wonder Leonardo Da Vinci and Michelangelo went to such efforts to elevate the status of artists (and by implication art itself) onto a more intellectual plane.

My take on this is that it reminds me of some of my grandfathers homemade cabinetry tools. They are beautiful but they are made to be used not looked at or abused. Their real beauty is in their performance and funtionality. I have a Winch. Trapper I bought 24 yrs ago that has the most beautiful burl stock on her. You can feel the ripples. When I bought it for a whole $247.00, the guy who sold it to me said everyone in the shop had wanted it. Well after all those years she has shot her fair share of game and has some nicks on her, but to me she is that much more of a piece of "working art". Love that gun and the way she hunts. Just my 2 cents worth.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:

quote:

What Grenadier said.

Moreover, I don't think that Mr. Grenadier is qualified to tell anyone else that they should get rid of their firearms if they are afraid they will depreciate in value if they are shot.

The man asked a question and I offered an opinion - just as you did. Just because your personal opinion differs from mine does not mean my personal opinion is unqualified. As to my qualifications, I have decades of practical application and a well documented history as a provider of my opinion. I studied under the best opinioneers, attended the most opinionated schools, married and lived with some very opinionated women, and opined with multi-disciplinary theologians, often in the face of insurmountable evidence.

The original poster stated, "I worried over those dings so much that I decided it was too much." I replied, "If you have firearms you won't shoot because you are afraid they will depreciate in value then you should get rid of them and relieve yourself of the anxiety."

Don't you want to prevent anyone else from experiencing such trauma?

I used to like just the plain ones. Hell, now I like them all. I like having nice looking wood and engraving on a gun if you can afford it. I will take the better looking one as long as it shoots great!

Classical Meaning of Art

The original classical definition - derived from the Latin word "ars" (meaning "skill" or "craft") - is a useful starting point. This broad approach leads to art being defined as: "the product of a body of knowledge, most often using a set of skills." Thus Renaissance painters and sculptors were viewed merely as highly skilled artisans (interior-decorators?). No wonder Leonardo Da Vinci and Michelangelo went to such efforts to elevate the status of artists (and by implication art itself) onto a more intellectual plane.

Echols Classic Rifle:

"My Classic Rifles represent the best of my skills as designer, craftsman and artisan . Each project combines precision metal work and the finest stock work to accomplish the client’s goals. I carry with me many decades of experience in the traditional school of classic rifle making, component engineering and manufacture. My goal is to create a piece of functional art that offers the owner intrinsic value. My standards emphasize exceptional fit, feel, accuracy and balance. I build the Classic rifles to withstand the rigors of the field around the world. Within this text you will find a general layout for what materials I prefer to use for each project and the typical construction parameters. I will consider any reasonable request for those that seek something out of the ordinary. I believe my finest projects have has always been the most subtle. With this in mind simplistic elegance is always my goal."

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Art is anything you see that you really, really like the instant you see it, but something you can't do yourself...

Rich

"can't do yourself" this I don't understand.