The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Custom Built Rifles Model 70 "Classic" action by Dave WesbrookGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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There is a place for all rifles and I am fortunate enough to have some of each. I just don't understand somebody posting on a thread to demean a wonderful rifle. Yes I have several glass stocked hunting rifles and they are good rifles, but why make an ass out of yourself justifying your other than a real custom rifle? I'm confused? Nobody posted that our synthetic stocked rifles were a POS. If you have a problem with any rifle, semi custom, or full custom, admire it or shut your mouth. Your post makes a lot of people think less of you. | |||
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It demeaned itself from the weight of a real world comparison. If its "class" couldn't stand a mere comparison, then perhaps it was a facade and pretense. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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I'm sorry, but you are digging a deeper hole for yourself. | |||
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KB, I have been on your side many times but this time you are being a jerk. So you pieced together a CZ550 with a custom barrel, who cares? That stock is butt ugly and there is no way I would give you half of your asking price. It might be a great rifle for you... But you did try to sell it and there were no takers, so? You believe David's rifle is over priced? Hell, you may be right.... That is fine but there is no reason to crap all over this thread Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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Aren't all rifles an assembly of pieces? The difference in a factory rifle and a custom is merely the care, attention to detail, and skill, and personal hands on from a gunsmith. Your definition that it has to include eye candy walnut is BS. I had lots of watchers, but no bids when I stopped the ad. If I crashed your's or others self-affirming illusions of grandeur with a real world practical rifle comparison to your eye candy, sorry about that. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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A big, big, part of the "eye candy walnut" is "the care, attention to detail, and skill, and personal hands on from a gunsmith" you idiot. | |||
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While I like and admire many factory rifles there is just something about a piece that has had the time and attention of a true artist or craftsman. I appreciate the skill, sweat, attention to details, and the idiosyncrasies imparted by a living person. It likely won't shoot any better or be any more functional but it will have an indefinable quality no mass produced item will ever have. Mr. Wesbrook is such a craftsman and his rifle falls in that catagory. How much is that worth? Only you can answer that question | |||
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NO, they aren't all assembled from pieces. | |||
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He was being a jerk then too. -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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In my opinion the esthetics is part of it. I want my rifle to be functional, reliable and pleasing to MY eye. I recently had two B&M rifles built. Accurate Innovations made the stocks, I did spend quite a time to select the Bastogne blank that was used to make the stocks, the type of checkering I wanted, the ebony end caps etc., etc.. I could have spent a tenth of the amount I paid to buy blank stocks similar to yours from CDNN etc., but I would not have been happy with it. This is almost like the age old car argument, guys that don't want (or can't afford) performance cars knocking them down saying theirs gets them to work just as well. Some people pay for beauty as well as functionality. Now, is Dave's gun worth the price he is asking for? Well, if he sells it for the asking price, I guess it was worth it for someone. I'd assume he priced it according to his going rate for similar rifles. So, each to his own. | |||
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Dave, I think it is an absolutely gorgeous rifle with lot of time and effort put into it. I hope you get everything you want out of it. It is a shame some threads go the way of this one. I also agree with Butch. I have a custom rifle with a nice piece of English walnut. On the very first hunt I had it on, I took it out of the hard case and dropped the bolt right on it and dented the stock. That is just character to me and a memory of the hunt. I don't care how much I paid for a rifle, I use them and hunt with them. Scratches happen. Larry "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history, when everybody stands around reloading" -- Thomas Jefferson | |||
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Your "real world practical rifle" might be fine as far as form, fit, and function goes. But it looks like shit. | |||
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Snap out of it, Kabluewy. You're not in the ARPF where this sort of banter is intended. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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Can't you tell the difference in discussion, and I assume your meaning of banter. Also, pay attention to who is actually doing the personal attacks. There are several good examples of opinion expression and discussion here for you to see how it's done. These are the folks who are examples of real "class". KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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Like all the CZ 550 American style rifles look to your eyes, I suppose. Fortunately Hogue doesn't make a stock to fit the CS 550, or I would have used one. Instead I was forced to use the fine factory stock, which I'm very happy with. I think it looks good now, but someday I plan on stripping the factory finish to expose what looks like excellent color and grain beneath and refinishing to highlight it. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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Yes, it is sorta like the car or truck argument. For example, my brother-in-law bought a new fancy Toyota truck, and it's a fine piece of machinery. When I retired I shopped hard for a truck, but avoided dealers, and shopped on line mostly for private sellers at the various sites such as truck trader, etc. I got a nice 3/4 ton 2003 Ford superduty with about 101 thousand miles, which had not been used as a farm or construction truck, just road miles, for $7000. New tires and some front end parts and alignment, it has performed great. My BIL made a comment one day that set me off, and I said "it was a tough decision, one new Toyota or five like the one I bought". We haven't discussed it since. Not that I would buy five trucks, but I could for the price of the Toyota. My insurance is less cost too, and I can tow 7000 lb + trailer. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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So, they are borne fully assembled, and just have to grow up? KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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Kabluewy, you should live here in Finland. Here is very uncommon to have such high grade build rifles, mostly builders make their rifles mainly for hunter i.e. metal works is decent, woods have good and dence grain but very seldom so expensive outlook as it seems to standard to custom rifles in USA. You see very seldon shiny polished barrels and stocks too. I like all kind of well build rifles but IMO custom rifle means rifle which has been build according to clients intructions, not always with most high costs. If you click my link below to my blog you will notice that I´m professional craftsman and mainly do custom works. | |||
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At one time I had several "custom" rifles in progress or waiting for a gunsmith. Not just any gunsmith but one who was capable of the proper attention to detail and skill. The projects stacked up and stalled. It was far less of a problem getting the metal work completed, especially when I went to just letting PacNor install their barrel. The turnaround time on that was no longer a problem, like it was with other gunsmiths. Often I was in the predicament of having a barreled action ready, but waiting in line for the stock from a gunsmith. That's when I started just dropping them into a Hogue or whatever would fit, so I could at least go to the range, test and start enjoying them. That's how I discovered the pleasure of Hogue stock ownership. It solves multiple problems, the number one problem is waiting on a gunsmith, and second the cost. Thereafter, I would have PacNor contour the blank especially to fit the barrel channel of the Hogue stock. The idea was to have it look good while waiting for the walnut or McMillan replacement. All of those combos still wear their Hogue stock. I've sold a few, and generally sell them as barreled actions, and sell the unaltered stock separately. Also, at one time I had at least a dozen nice actions that I thought I may have made into rifles. You know - assemble the pieces. But again they just stacked up, waiting on a gunsmith. So, that's when I went to the CZ 550, which avoided almost all the stalled down situation with gunsmiths. The CZ 550 needs nothing from a gunsmith, for the most part, and those factory rifles I have tested have MOA factory barrels. Recently I sold five commercial Mauser actions to one guy. Three FNs and two Mark X. These actions (assembled from pieces) had Blackburn triggers, three position safeties, upgraded bottom metal, etc. I'm selling them all, and still have one left. The 35 Whelen was assembled by gunsmiths; PacNor for the barrel, and another for the bedding, tweaking of the safety and trigger, etc., W E Birdsong for the metal finish. The action is from Brownells. The turnaround time was minimal. BTW, Chuck, eye candy contributes nothing to fit, function, accuracy, usefulness in the field and in some cases may distract from its purpose, especially in Alaska. Perfect checkering and fine walnut is like engraving, serving no functional purpose, only eye candy. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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If I lived in Finland, I would ask you to be my gunsmith, and try to behave myself.  KB
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Kabluewy, you remind me of that guy who talks about the custom home he picked out of the tract house builders catalog. "They built it to order!" | |||
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Again, despite all your analogies, a "Custom" rifle is simply one which is not available from the factory, over the counter. The degree of customizing varies, which makes it custom. The rifle I displayed is one of a kind. Anyone out there got a CZ 550 in 35 Whelen? Now and here is a good time to display it with pictures and description. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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Take and old car, blueprint the engine and running gear, and show it to those with that certain "class" here and they would poo - poo it. The quality of the running gear and engine is nothing to them without a shiny new paint job. It's all about ego and looking good.
To me, dents look just as good, and the lasting memory, on my CZ factory fiddleback stocks as they would on a nice piece of English walnut.  KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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Here's another one of a kind custom CZ 550, in 323 Hollis. It was tweaked similar to the 35 Whelen. I got into the biggest fiasco over this rifle with some gunsmiths, which caused several years setback on its completion. I finally solved the problem by sending my custom reamer to PacNor and they used it when installing their barrel. Handloading for this rifle is not a problem at all. The stock is a takeoff from a 9.3x62, with the cross bolts, glass bedded. The action is from a 7mm Mag. Notice the bolt handle. So, that's two custom CZs and a nice Ford truck and I still have money left over, compared to the cost of the Mod 70 in the OP. Maybe I'll buy another truck after all.   ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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The following post resolves the issue of deleting the original OP. With over 5,300 views, it would be a shame to ruin this thread over ego and emotionalism.
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Kabluewy, I appreciate you being the lightening rod on my behalf. My "custom" was compared to Mickey Mouse awhile back, when in reality, it fits me perfectly and shoots .5 MOA with factory ammo. | |||
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Some gun makers, myself included, will build to order starting with nothing but bar stock and a blank of wood. And I mean literally every single piece and part is machined and hand fitted one piece at a time. I've even made barrels from scratch when my customer has been whiling to pay for my labor. For that level of knowledge, skill and experience some customers are willing to pay top dollar and wait multiple years for their project to be finished. So setting aside your smart ass reply, again I will say NO, they aren't all assembled from parts. If you want the best then you have to go to the best maker in that niche and pay him what he is worth and be prepared to wait because any gun maker that is any good is going to have a backlog. Colin | |||
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That's very difficult for me to imagine, from two perspectives. First is the cost. Really it's a cost/benefit ratio. Is it really better just because you made each part, or just cost more? Secondly - why? Regardless of whether you make each part or use ready made parts, the final product is still an assembly of parts. Take the forged receiver of the CZ 550, for example. You can't do that - you don't have the equipment. First they forge it, then mill it, then very scientifically heat treat it. You can't do a better job with the tools readily available to make a better receiver. To justify the cost of the equipment you would have to make thousands of receivers. You can possible mill one, but forging is better, less expensive, and there is still the heat treatment. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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Have a nice day, Dave.  ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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Kapooy, Have your read and seen the pictures on this forum of Bailey Bradshaw forging the metal for his receivers? Most receivers and bolts manufactured for a lot of years were produced from prehardened material. They don't do heat treat, and that includes your CZ550. They are machined from heat treated material. | |||
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Kabluewy, don't you have a job to go to? Or something else you can be doing? | |||
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Thanks for the info and correction. Let's not let my mistake of info distract from the point, which is Cowboy says he makes his custom guns from scratch, and the finished product is not an assembly of parts, which sets his product at a higher value, and his customers are willing to pay for. Even if he's making black powder rifles, there are lots of ready made parts on the market, which are just as good as making them from scratch. And, Butch, perhaps the forging process toughens the steel so it doesn't need heat treatment after forging. That must be hard on the milling tools for the finishing cuts needed. However a milled receiver probably will need heat treatment, because as I understand it the metal needs to be soft enough to mill. KB
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I wouldn't have pushed it this far if some gentlemen of "class" here hadn't chosen to insult me. I find the arrogance of many here disgusting. KB
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Kabluewy, No rule of etiquette says that one should be polite to an anonymous person that has intentionally tried to damage you. You sir are an asshole of the highest order!! David L Wesbrook | |||
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I didn't intentionally try to do damage to you. If being silent and censure myself and opinion is etiquette, in your view, I don't know what to say. It seems to me that the issue at stake for you is primarily money, and secondarily ego. If you view this as a venue for a market place for guys like you, OK with me. I view it as a discussion forum. Run your ad on classified, where it really is the unspoken etiquette to not mess with someone's potential sale. If you view the Custom forum as a place where you and others with equal "class" can stroke each other's ego, and us lower class folks must observe etiquette and mind our own business, and know our place, perhaps you were mistaken. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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Well since you don't have much of an imagination I can save you the effort, all you have to do is go to my website(link in my signature) then the link to my blog is on my home page and from there you can back track through the posts and find 10+ hours(also on youtube channel CStolzer338) of video documenting over 1300 hours of custom building a Side by Side rifle. As for cost, not everyone values money the same way, for some people it's not about the money spent it's about the finished product. WHY? For the same reason that nearly all the furniture(all but 3 chairs) in my house are over 100 years old...it's called craftsmanship and you can't get that from mass production lines.
If that's the case then why do anything to your rifles, why didn't you just buy factory ready and leave it that way? I've built two CRF bolt actions from scratch in my career, I did not forge either one, why would I when I was able to machine them from bar stock without having to go through the forging process. Forging is not necessarily better, that depends on the specific application. And they were both heat treated in my shop in a digitally controlled heat treat furnace using all the same practices and processes that any heat treater would use. I don't need millions of dollars of equipment to produce a better product, I just need time. I can produce better tolerances with smoke fitting by hand that even a cnc machine can't reproduce. Not everything in this world is about money, my shop rate is probably the lowest in the country at $30.00/hour. By the time you take away my overhead that puts my working wage down quite a a bit. I used to make $150K+ a year but I was gone from home all the time, missed my kids and wife and the work was dangerous most of the time. I make less now but I'm 60 feet from my house, I don't have a boss to answer to, my work is pretty safe for the most part and I get to spend at least part of everyday with my wife. I'm willing to trade money for happiness every time. My Customers want a hand crafted firearm and they are willing to pay me a living wage and wait 3 years(that's my current backlog) to get one from me. They're happy with the work I produce and I'm happy with the money I make. To some of my customers the cost has no bearing on their happiness with their finished firearm. Like me they are willing to trade craftsmanship for money because they see the value in it and the happiness it brings. Colin | |||
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I don't know of any factory ready rifles that turn my crank, except perhaps a Sako Vixen. Why would someone do custom work on his truck or car? No one that I know of makes a car or truck to drive from scratch. They buy a ready made something then customize it. With rifles, for example, there are many guys who want their factory rifles improved in various ways; probably a lot more of us than those who want a rifle made from scratch. With all that I now know, if I wanted a bolt action rifle made from scratch, I would start with one of the Mod 700 clone actions, and direct the gunsmith from that starting point, assembling parts, hand fitted. If I wanted a semi-auto, I would have an AR-15 or AR-10 custom assembled from parts. At this point I have enough rifles. BTW, I'm not criticizing your work, or strategy for making a living. There are at least two perspectives of this. One is from the gunsmith's view, of course, and the other is from the customer's. I just represent one niche of customer. Obviously there are those who see value in different aspects of the craft/art. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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After slogging through 4 pages of this, it pains me to say that I have to agree with KB; this is indeed a discussion forum, and if you're going to put it out there, then you are going to accept that it is open to criticism, as long as that criticism is at least somewhat valid. KB's opening post on this thread enumerated what he considered to be valid criticisms; rather than engaging him on those criticisms, several chose to make personal attacks, which were what led to the downward spiral of the thread. Believe me, it's not that I enjoy agreeing with him, but he's right. The mud-slinging did not start with him and the blame for the piss in the punchbowl resides with those who chose to do so. For myself, I think it's a beautiful rifle, and especially like the stock; but for me, I prefer no iron sights and a good scope. As for the price, if someone is willing to pay that much, then that is a reflection of the value of the work and dedication that went into the rifle - a value that is between the seller and the buyer. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Custom Built Rifles Model 70 "Classic" action by Dave Wesbrook
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