David has posted an excellent example of the gunmakers art. The members of this forum have commented on just how good or bad it looks. David has given its abilities for shooting and for what its intended use was.

Criticism/opinions only got heated when David mentioned the price for the rifle. Why does his time/money invested have any less value than any other professional business man in the top of their chosen trade? Anyone had surgery lately in a hospital? How's that for a bill?

As for a warranty...David is still alive. HE backs his work. When he passes from the profession, another with skill can and should be asked to work on this rifle. Stockmaking and Metalsmithing are being taught even today to men/women looking to enter this trade of craftsmanship. The future owner of this fine firearm should seek out the best he can to repair this rifle if needed.

As to a value in twenty years...who knows? John Manton, James Purdey, W.W. Greener, Sam Colt, J.M. Browning and many others didn't sell firearms to be immortalized in history...they made them to make money.

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
Sorry, but........

First, it is a very nice rifle and no doubt built by expert hands.
Second, Jim Kobe's comment is spot on and he knows what he is talking about.

However, I have to agree with some of what the others are saying. I find myself asking whether the $15,000 rifle shown to us is in the same "class" as a new Rigby of London "Big Game" rifle offered for $14,000. http://www.johnrigbyandco.com/the-big-game.html Is it covered by warranty? Who will do repair work on it in ten or fifteen years? What kind of value will it still have in twenty years?

Nobody has said the rifle is not a fine custom rifle. They are just questioning the price and I can understand their point.

"New" Rigby? It is a name and that is all. This outfit has changed hands several times and is not the same company. Buying a name is all you are getting. The quality will likely be there, but at what price? Just to have the words "Rigby" on your gun? I never get that.
How would you like to be one of the California Rigby rifle owners who were basically scammed by the name?

Buy what works and what is accurate. Otherwise, you have a wall decoration at most.

quote:

Originally posted by Dennis Earl Smith:
David has posted an excellent example of the gunmakers art. The members of this forum have commented on just how good or bad it looks. David has given its abilities for shooting and for what its intended use was.

Criticism/opinions only got heated when David mentioned the price for the rifle. Why does his time/money invested have any less value than any other professional business man in the top of their chosen trade? Anyone had surgery lately in a hospital? How's that for a bill?

As for a warranty...David is still alive. HE backs his work. When he passes from the profession, another with skill can and should be asked to work on this rifle. Stockmaking and Metalsmithing are being taught even today to men/women looking to enter this trade of craftsmanship. The future owner of this fine firearm should seek out the best he can to repair this rifle if needed.

As to a value in twenty years...who knows? John Manton, James Purdey, W.W. Greener, Sam Colt, J.M. Browning and many others didn't sell firearms to be immortalized in history...they made them to make money.

You are correct!

Dennis -- Point taken

Duane,
He will not have it in 15 years and couldn't care. I do understand your point though.
Wouldn't it be nice to charge what your rifles will bring in 15 years?

I'd rather pay 15k for this rifle than pay 15k for some of the crap I saw on the Antiques Roadshow the other night. I can't afford it so I have absolutely no say, whatsoever, whether or not the price is right. I do know that Dave is one hell of artisan and I respect the right for an artist/craftsman to ask what he wants for his work. I also have a respect for ones work, whether it suits me or not. But my idea of human respect is vastly different than some members of the AR community. I'm just hoping that some of the disrespect shown to our artisans will not deter them from sharing their future work. I, for one, enjoy it, learn from it, and become inspired by it... Keep doing what you do...

It appears all the flack is about the knot/pin.

Nobody has slighted his work, just that blank choice, on a $15,000 rifle.

I suggest you all do as I did, opt not to buy it...

put it to rest.

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
Dogcat...what's your $50,000 GMC gonna be worth in 15 years?

Definitely more than a California Rigby for sure, plus I get to use it every day. If you view this as an investment as you are implying, then I would prefer Exxon or Berkshire stock anyway. The returns will be better. However, you are comparing dissimilar items.

I am not disparaging Dave's work, he is supremely skilled obviously. I just fail to see/appreciate/understand the value created. As you pointedly stated previously that comparing my "aggregated" (Model 70 action, upgrade barrel, upgrade stock, upgrade trigger - Hmmm? sounds like a custom)Hill Country Rifles gun (fine tuned rifle and accurate) to Mickey Mouse art work done by Disney vs Rembrandt when discussing elegant custom guns - value is in the mind of the buyer. Quality is there in both, but a buyer perceives value differently. I highly value accuracy and function. I do not highly value elegant woodwork or a perfect finish on the metal. In the end, both types work, both types are functional, both are aggregated from parts - one is "prettier" or has a higher degree of skill and craft put into the fit and finish.

I admire your work and Dave's for the skill you put forth. I just don't value the end product enough to want to own it at those prices.

Gentlemen,
Much has been said about the price of my work.
Actually there are at least a dozen makers in this country that charge as much or more for a completed rifle. Several makers in this country charge in the 20k-30k range and one charges in the mid 40k's.
If you want "sticker shock" look to some of the European makers where you may pay 3-5 times as much.
My base price on a model 70 Winchester is $9500 plus materials.Mausers are a little more.
I can either bill you at my base price or charge you a shop rate of $45/hr for every hour the project takes.Base price usually turnes out to be less.
Any work that I contract out (to a small group of talented craftsmen that I trust) is passed along to the client at cost.
I only work with Juglans Regia and the client may provide the wood as long as it is dry,cured and has correct grain flow. I reserve the right to accept or reject any customer supplied wood.
A firm delivery time will be given only after all materials are recieved.
I will not argue the merits of factory or semi-custom rifles. I own,shoot and hunt with both.
My work is what it is.

David L Wesbrook

I don't have a dog in this fight, but the way I see it is some folks like to drive a Chevrolet and others like to drive a Cadillac. It's simply a personal choice that the buyer makes for himself and usually it's based on what makes him happy. I believe that Dave's work is Cadillac class and that is going to cost money. How much is between Dave and his customer and other factors such as how much a CZ costs in the same caliber is completely irrevelant. They'll both kill a buffalo but that's not the point either. As I've gotten older I have come to appreciate the better grade of product because of it's lasting value and the good feeling I get just by handling something of a higher quality. While I won't ever get to the point of buying one of Dave's rifles I can appreciate those who are capable of this purchase and I'm sure it will make someone feel the same way I do about a fine piece of craftsmanship.

Way off topic, but Dave, is that bolt knob original? Thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by dave wesbrook:

Gentlemen,

Much has been said about the price of my work.
....

I will not argue the merits of factory or semi-custom rifles. I own, shoot and hunt with both.

My work is what it is.

David L Wesbrook

Well stated, classy response.

P.S. Nice rifle.

From another post: "I read somewhere that value is the number that a willing buyer and a willing seller agree on in an unforced purchase and sale on any given day."

That's about the best definition I've heard. Ultimately the market determines value.

You cast your vote with your wallet, everything else is just chatter.

I've allowed myself to get dragged into some of these value discussions in the past and I've come to realize that the only person who cares about my personal preferences and opinion is me.

There are an awful lot of folks who claim to prefer PBR to craft brews, or boxed Franzia to a vintner's reserve Pinot, or swear their Tasco's are almost as good as Zeiss.
But I'll bet that should they ever gain a substantial inheritance or win a lottery their tastes and opinions would quickly change.

It is a handsome rifle and I would be proud to own it, however, if spending that much for a custom rifle I would want it exactly to my specifications. While I really like the rifle there are some, admittedly niggly, items that I would change. I could tolerate them on a less expensive rifle but not at that price.

Still it is a very handsome piece and I hope it finds a good home and spends lots of time in the woods.

Jerry Liles

I have heard it said many times that those who make custom items or provide custom services should worry less about those who cannot afford their services or goods, and worry more about those who can.

I consider custom to be made for a certain individual. A pair of boots made custom for me would not be "custom" for someone else.

So a custom made for me wouldn't be a custom if you bought it from me?

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
So a custom made for me wouldn't be a custom if you bought it from me?

That would sure throw the whole “bespoke DR” resale value stuff down the toilet…

I'd pay that for a similar rifle, but with a black fore end, no leather covered pad and no Tally bases. But it'd be in 340 Wby.

I wouldn't pay that for a London gun. I have a feeling that bitch'll shoot- no better combo than a Mod 70 and a Krieger. No doubt it'd put a cloverleaf centered well inside the group of any London gun.

I also wouldn't pay that if that gun was built for someone else- I do believe in depreciation of a "built for ________" vs a bespoke, even if unfired- just a bit funny about that.

Lets say you are a rightie and bought a guy's leftie, how could you call it a custom? There may be several other adjectives that would be applicable, depending on the gun but I don't see custom as fitting.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
Lets say you are a rightie and bought a guy's leftie, how could you call it a custom? There may be several other adjectives that would be applicable, depending on the gun but I don't see custom as fitting.

Really? That's a bit of a stretch.

"Custom" is a loosely used term anyway. Take a look at the general theme of most makers rifles. Many guys can tell a maker regardless of who it is "custom" made for. "Handcrafted" might be a better monicker.

I don't consider it a stretch at all. Just one thing of many that could be used as an example. Yes handcrafted, superb workmanship, precision made and any one of several other choices would be more accurate.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
I don't consider it a stretch at all. Just one thing of many that could be used as an example. Yes handcrafted, superb workmanship, precision made and any one of several other choices would be more accurate.

It it is a big stretch! Get real!

Where's the stretch you have a left handed gun and you are right handed and going to tell folks it was custom made? I'd certainly expect a leftie to have a custom made leftie gun and when sold it would hardly be custom if rightie bought it.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
Where's the stretch you have a left handed gun and you are right handed and going to tell folks it was custom made? I'd certainly expect a leftie to have a custom made leftie gun and when sold it would hardly be custom if rightie bought it.

So you have all the answers? If you are right handed and the rifle is left handed, most people would not buy it.
Gosh, sounds like you just want to post something.

And most people would not buy it because it is NOT a custom.

You are both making valid points, but the argument is silly, and is centered totally on your individual interpretations of the term "custom".

Per Dictionary.com: "Custom - made to the specifications of an individual customer." By this definition Carpetman appears to win, but the conditions under which an object was originally produced do not magically change when ownership transfers. Furthermore, if you consider the opposite of custom be factory stock that argument breaks down even further.

Look at it this way, if you owned a blueprinted race car and offered it for sale would you advertise it as stock? Of course not! You would proclaim the numerous custom parts and features that set it apart from the rest of the crowd, even if those features were not ordered specifically by and for the next owner. (and even if they aren't the best fit for a potential buyer) It is a custom built car, period.

That's Butchlambert's point, and you can't disagree with that.

A custom built rifle remains a custom rifle no matter how many hands it passes through because it was built to the specifications of an individual customer at the time of its origin. It matters not whether that individual customer still owns the rifle in question.

If you choose to buy a custom rifle that isn't a good fit for you, (i.e. leftie) that is your decision.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
I would rather have seven to ten excellent functional and accurte field rifles (for the same money) than the "class" of one like the Mod 70 or Rigby.

When I sold the custom 7x57 previously mentioned, I used the proceeds to buy three CZ 550s off GB, and had them all glass bedded and modified the bolt handels and generally tweeked. 6.5x55, 7x57, 7x64.

KB

Age-old argument - "he who has the most toys wins"; or "quality, not quantity"

It depends on how you define quality.

I'm not talking about sacrificing quality at all.

I'm talking about rifles that have all the attributes of a quality rifle; accuracy, crisp reliable trigger, walnut with proper grain layout, smooth action, fit, perfect function, looks good, steel, resale value, etc.

KB

Gentlemen,
I ask Z1r to delete the original post on this thread.
I've grown tired of the anonymous internet experts,idiots and assholes saying things that they would never say to my face.
David L Wesbrook

quote:

Originally posted by JabaliHunter:
Age-old argument - "he who has the most toys wins"; or "quality, not quantity"

Quality???

I have rifles where all the custom work is in the metal, then drop the barreled action into a Hogue stock. I still call that custom and quality.

Ask Hogue if they think their stocks are "quality".

Ask Boyds if they think their stocks are quality.

Etc.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

quote:

Originally posted by JabaliHunter:
Age-old argument - "he who has the most toys wins"; or "quality, not quantity"

Quality???

I have rifles where all the custom work is in the metal, then drop the barreled action into a Hogue stock. I still call that custom and quality.

Ask Hogue if they think their stocks are "quality".

Ask Boyds if they think their stocks are quality.

Etc.

KB

The fact that you think hogue stocks are quality is a good indicator that you haven't the foggiest clue about what you are talking about. But most figured that out long before that post.

The point of my post was not to criticize your his rifle, or you him, but to point out that there are different definitions of quality and satisfaction in a rifle for actual use.

As I explained earlier, I had a very fine walnut stocked rifle once, and it actually caused me stress when I used it, because I was thinking about protecting the work of art, class, or whatever you want to call it, instead of hunting. I don't have that problem with a Hogue stock. My money usually goes into the metal.

Consider my background and where I spent a large part of my adult life. I was not exposed to the "class" firearms in my youth. No one I knew could afford them. I did have a distant relative who had some British shotguns, but he kept them hidden away, and seemed to never leave his easy chair. A real "class" act.

When I started spending real money on rifles was when I lived in Alaska, and the field use on firearms there is brutal.

KB

Scratches and dings on mine reminds me of the great moments of a hunt. Mine have a few as I'm not anal about it when on a hunt.
KB, you don't need a fine rifle if your mind is on keeping it free of any damage.

I think of my 35 Whelen posted above as a "fine rifle". And you are right, I don't need it. I mostly just look at it and fret over the dings and scratches. I'm just as happy using my 9.3x62 "custom" Ruger wearing its Hogue stock.

In my experience most of the dings and scratches just show up, despite my best efforts to prevent them, and not attributed to any memorable hunting experience. I have always questioned the premise of dings and scratches representing something memorable. If I want to remember a hunting experience, I take a camera along, and make a photo album, lately digital, previously paper.

I can't imagine spending $10,000 or $5,000 on a stock, but if I did I'm real sure I would be anal about it in the field. So, I know an easy way to save all that money and avoid being anal too.

KB

kabluewy,
You are one of the primary reasons that I'm deleting this thread. If you know so much start your own damn thread but get the hell off of mine!!!

Ka blow me,

You know absolutely nothing about class.

So much for "class" and elitism.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by dave wesbrook:
Gentlemen,
I ask Z1r to delete the original post on this thread.
I've grown tired of the anonymous internet experts,idiots and assholes saying things that they would never say to my face.
David L Wesbrook

Dave, It's a wonderful rifle, thanks for casting your pearls amongst us swine.

Sometimes I think it's a contest to see who can be the biggest asshole. Unfortunately, it's a tight race