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I have an octogon barrel with intergral rib, sling stud and front sight.

When doing custom contours, and intrgral machining, is it best to have said barrels cryo'd to relieve any stresses? I'm thinking yes, but wander if there is anymore stress on this type of barrel then say a round lathe turn barrel. If so who do you use for the cryo treatment?
Thanks!


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Steve Traxson

 
Posts: 1641 | Location: Green Country Oklahoma | Registered: 03 August 2007Reply With Quote
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Well Hell, I guess I answered my own question, never had one done so where is a good place to have it done?


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Steve Traxson

 
Posts: 1641 | Location: Green Country Oklahoma | Registered: 03 August 2007Reply With Quote
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I just had 2 done, but don't think it is a stress reliever. I think they machine a little easier. Also, some of the folks doing it on barrels do not have proper equip. to get it truly cold enough or leave them in long enough to do any good.
Ask Kreiger why they do it, purely for tool wear. By the way, mine were freebees.
Butch
 
Posts: 8964 | Location: Poetry, Texas | Registered: 28 November 2004Reply With Quote
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Thanks Butch! I should have done a search first, running on empty, shouldnt post with very little rest after a few days. Good to go now! Smiler


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Steve Traxson

 
Posts: 1641 | Location: Green Country Oklahoma | Registered: 03 August 2007Reply With Quote
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Cryoing a barrel actually imposes compressive stress to the barrel. In order to stress relieve the barrel after your contouring work, you need to get it to someone who can heat the barrel in the proper temperature range for the appropriate amount of time.

Cryoing does help certain cutting tools retain their edge for longer periods of time compared to the same cutting tool without the cryo treatment. But it will not help your barrel have a longer life (less wear) compared to the same barrel without the cryo treatment.

that is just the way it is.
 
Posts: 2509 | Location: Kisatchie National Forest, LA | Registered: 20 October 2004Reply With Quote
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What about that last 6-8 percent of stress relief from Martensite to Austentite? Most of the mold makers do it.


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Posts: 5531 | Location: Minnesota | Registered: 10 July 2002Reply With Quote
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There is a place in Ohio that specializes in cryoing barrels. They will also do barreled actions, but specify that it is better to do them separately. They know what they are doing. They go in stages down to -300 F if my mind remembers correctly and then gradually raise it to +300 F. I don't know if this is capable of stress relieving or not. I just wanted to point out that they heat them as well as freeze them in the process. My numbers may be way off as I am going by memory of having one done there 10-15 years ago.


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Posts: 1625 | Location: Potter County, Pennsylvania | Registered: 22 June 2005Reply With Quote
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If Cryo treated barrels truly offered any tangible benefits, everyone would know about it and most folks would be doing it! One may therefore assume that it's pure marketing hype.

quote:
What about that last 6-8 percent of stress relief from Magnatite to Austentite? Most of the mold makers do it.



I have great respect for Mr Kobe's words.....however in this case the steels used by mold makers are normally very different from the AISI 4140 steels used by barrel makers.

Tool makers normally use A-2, H-7, H-11, D-2, etc.....much more difficult to cut than 4140.

I don't see the comparison here.


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Posts: 28849 | Location: western Nebraska | Registered: 27 May 2003Reply With Quote
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I gather that a barrel that machines more freely due to cryo, would result in less distortion and less stress build up in the steel.

quote:
Originally posted by vapodog:
If Cryo treated barrels truly offered any tangible benefits, everyone would know about it and most folks would be doing it! One may therefore assume that it's pure marketing hype.

I suppose one could apply that same logic to rifling methods [ Cut vs button]- if one offered trully tangible benefits over the other, everyone would know about it and most folks would be doing it.
last I checked a non-cryo Hart or Lija cost more than an cryo-Krieger.

Injection mold steel is cryo treated not just to make it more easily machinable, its done to also extend the life of the mold, a proven industry fact. Cryo also benefits many types of cutting tools,dies, punches, rollers, form tools, etc.

In effect, a gun barrel operates as an tool or die, that forms/cuts lands into a projectile.


"We treat weapons for all branches of the military, ERT, HRT, SWAT, and many other undisclosed agencies protecting top leaders around the world." - 300Deg Below cryogenic tempering services, INC.
 
Posts: 9434 | Location: Here & There- | Registered: 14 May 2008Reply With Quote
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Some 20 years or more ago had a bolt gun used for XC matches(built Rem.700 w/factory varmint style barrel) cryo treated and as for accuracy improvement it did seem to make it a slight bit better. Lots of competitors were doing it and figured why not since the cost was only 50.00 then. Rapid fire stages generate a lot of heat and thought it would help in that area for the barrel. Will say when it was returned and shot it, the zero I had used before was quite a bit off and had to restablish. No big thing and called them and was told to shoot it some more and let them know if "settled down" or not. It was mentioned that Krieger uses the process and have also been told the cryo treatment is done prior to drilling, rifling,etc., and also afterwards. Don't know if that is the case or not, but whatever they do makes for one fine barrel. Gone through fair number of other brand barrels and have not done one since.
 
Posts: 1328 | Location: West Virginia | Registered: 19 January 2009Reply With Quote
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I hate to bother someone as busy as Ralph Martini. I have a great respect for the barrel work he has done. Think Ralph would talk even if I'm not buying anything? Dont know the man...just his work!


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Posts: 1641 | Location: Green Country Oklahoma | Registered: 03 August 2007Reply With Quote
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MFD,
I don't believe they double all of them. They still use the oven for stress relief.
Butch
 
Posts: 8964 | Location: Poetry, Texas | Registered: 28 November 2004Reply With Quote
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Over the last 18 years I have had perhaps 5 barrels cryo treated after they have been chambered to try and make them shoot more accurately without unexplained flyers or radical shifts in impact. Of these attempts I have only seen one of these barrels react in a very positive manner and it was the first barrel I ever sent in to have the procedure done.

I had just finished stocking a 416 Rigby barreled action that had been put together by the late Tom Burgess. The barrel was a cut rifle barrel and had a front sight, sling swivel base and a secondary recoil lug silver soldered to the barrel. The client had a Lion & Buffalo hunt scheduled and was to use this very rifle in 4 weeks time. Now completely assembled I was at the range trying desperately to zero the irons and the scope and was becoming ill as I shot one 8" group after another. After 200 plus rounds and a dozen different loads, bullets and mantras had been tried I called the client and gave him the good news. As the Ser # had already been registered on his gun permit across the pond I was beside myself as this was his first and only heavy rifle. I called a barrel maker to arrange a favor, more likely a miracle, and arranged to have those guys make a replacement barrel as close to the original contour as was possible and have it to me in 14 days. As the barrel maker would not have the blank ready to contour for 10 days I decided to give Cryo a try based on what I had read about the process in a number of issues of Precision Shooting Magazine. I next day aired the barrel to Kathy Fisher and she ran it through the process over the weekend and had it to me the following Tuesday. The rifle was reassembled and I headed to the range with black cloud hanging over my head. From that day on this rifle has shot .750 three shot groups with anything you shoot down it's bore. 350gr, 400gr, 410gr, softs, solids, Mono's, it really doesn't seem to matter. To say the results were nothing short of miraculous is a bit of an understatement. It didn't matter if the barrel was fouled, cold, our fired until it was to hot to touch the point of impact and group size stayed the same.

I wish I could report that subsequent inaccurate barrels showed the same amount improvement after the process but this was not the case. If I can get it done as a process of the barrels manufacture I'm all for it. But I'm not convinced it will solve all the accuracy issues that you could run up against. In this one instance however it was a project saver.
 
Posts: 708 | Registered: 30 December 2003Reply With Quote
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Darcy,
It would seem to me that the barrel that shot better after cryo did have a stress related accuracy problem.
The other four barrels must have had some other problem that stress relieving could not solve.
Stuart



 
Posts: 1234 | Location: Satterlee Arms 1-605-584-2189 | Registered: 12 November 2005Reply With Quote
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I could see where silver soldering a recoil lug on a barrel might cause a stress point unless it was the low temp type.


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Posts: 838 | Location: Randleman, NC | Registered: 07 April 2005Reply With Quote
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of course its "works" .. but is it enough?

the equipment has to cool slowly, and warm slowly .. requires computer controls, not manual, and when i was working on SCAADA systems, it was a bit of a PITA to have all the rights parts.. that was 15 years ago .. (crap, tempus fugit) - today, its a single microprocessor/valve/2 temp probes package .. that you screw onto a tank.

asking if cryo works is like asking does annealing or tempering work .. of course it does .. it jut might not deliver all one has heard. that is, all the radical myths about it ... though engineers spec parts to be cryo'ed all the time ..


opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club

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What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR.
476AR,
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Posts: 40026 | Location: Conroe, TX | Registered: 01 June 2002Reply With Quote
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Stuart
There is no doubt that this barrel had some major kinks that were likely induced during it's manufacture, contouring or as a combined result with the High temp soldered hardware. When the Cryo process hit the media it was seen as cure all for everything accuracy related in regards to manufacturing induced stress. However Kevin Thomas at Sierra wrote about a test they did that found little quantifiable accuracy improvement when used with some of their test barrels. In my case I was groping at straws and hoping it was a stress related issue and willing to give it a try under the circumstances. In this one case the procedure did in fact reduce or remove what ever stress was present. I bring up this one instance as it did dramatically correct an ugly situation at least this one time. This might be a relatively cheap fall back procedure to considered when faced with a similar disaster in the making.
D'Arcy
 
Posts: 708 | Registered: 30 December 2003Reply With Quote
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i have a couple of cyro'd barrels - what a waste of money they are. spending the money on good quality barrels and proper machining techniques is money spent much more wisely
 
Posts: 13466 | Location: faribault mn | Registered: 16 November 2004Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by DArcy_Echols_Co:
Stuart
There is no doubt that this barrel had some major kinks that were likely induced during it's manufacture, contouring or as a combined result with the High temp soldered hardware. When the Cryo process hit the media it was seen as cure all for everything accuracy related in regards to manufacturing induced stress. However Kevin Thomas at Sierra wrote about a test they did that found little quantifiable accuracy improvement when used with some of their test barrels. In my case I was groping at straws and hoping it was a stress related issue and willing to give it a try under the circumstances. In this one case the procedure did in fact reduce or remove what ever stress was present. I bring up this one instance as it did dramatically correct an ugly situation at least this one time. This might be a relatively cheap fall back procedure to considered when faced with a similar disaster in the making.
D'Arcy


There is a fair body of experience which supports what you found. Jack (John) Krieger personally told me that Cryo greatly decreases the number of barrels he has to scrap from stresses either incurred or released during manufacture. As a result he cryos every piece of barrel steel he buys, before making it into a barrel. PacNor also (sort of) owns/operates their own cryo equipment.

Properly done cryo work can also greatly increase the life of steel in tough applications. For instance, the replaceable teeth on the giant dredges used in the Alberta "Oil Sands" are cryoed to improve molecular alignment of the steel and increase their life. Believe me, if it didn't work, the major oil companies involved wouldn't pay for doing it. They aren't in business to give away results from the bottom line, as all of us are noticing every day at the pumps.

Like everything else in the world, cryo is not 100% effective to magically avoid or correct problems. But is a proven, useful technogogy often enough for a lot of folks to use it.


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Posts: 9685 | Location: Cave Creek 85331, USA | Registered: 17 August 2001Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by airgun1:
There is a place in Ohio that specializes in cryoing barrels. They will also do barreled actions, but specify that it is better to do them separately. They know what they are doing. They go in stages down to -300 F if my mind remembers correctly and then gradually raise it to +300 F. I don't know if this is capable of stress relieving or not. I just wanted to point out that they heat them as well as freeze them in the process. My numbers may be way off as I am going by memory of having one done there 10-15 years ago.


Your numbers are not wrong. They are very close to bang on. Barrels are both slowly cooled and slowly heated, and they are held at both extremes for periods measured in hours.
 
Posts: 9685 | Location: Cave Creek 85331, USA | Registered: 17 August 2001Reply With Quote
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Sorry to keep showing the same ol' picture. The action is nearing finish, working on the bases for the action now and then it's stock work.
The barrel is a Shilen chrome molly. This is my first attempt at doing a intergal, tappered octogon in a light/medium weight barrel. Maybe my question shouldnt be so much about cryo treating as to ask...Should I just finish the damn thing and shoot it.( Smiler ) This is my first truley custom barrel and have a shit load of time in it. Measured six times and cut once. Didnt get crazy with the cutters on the mill. I have this image of it looking like a snake after shooting a few times. I see barrels round with full length ribbs and such, Sooo was wandering if anything special was done other then screwing it on and just go with it.
Thanks for all the comments...Some of this is new to me and I'm learning, "thats why I'm here" Good bunch of people!


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Posts: 1641 | Location: Green Country Oklahoma | Registered: 03 August 2007Reply With Quote
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I appreciate the time dedication & workmanship folks put into an well done integral feature barrel. However, there much less concern or likelyhood of the possible negative effects of stress buildup in a barrel that has correctly fitted add on hardwear.
IIRC, RalF Martini does integrals at the desire of the customer, but prefers barrels with add on hardwear.
I believe Mark Chanlyn bores and cut rifles his barrels after doing the external integral features.
 
Posts: 9434 | Location: Here & There- | Registered: 14 May 2008Reply With Quote
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srtrax, your work is stunning! I haven't seen it in this state of completion. Amazing work.

Terry



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Posts: 6315 | Location: Mississippi | Registered: 18 May 2002Reply With Quote
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Darcy,
I suppose when the front sight was soldered in place the bore size maybe could have increased a small amout and stayed that way when it cooled.
Cryo could have shrunk it back down. Making it shoot better.
Whatever the problem was, cyro fixed it.
Beyond that. If it works, it works.

Never heard of somebody cryoing a barrel that already shoots well.
Has anybody ever cryoed a barrel that currently produces good accuracy?
Stuart



 
Posts: 1234 | Location: Satterlee Arms 1-605-584-2189 | Registered: 12 November 2005Reply With Quote
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Stu,
I just had 2 barrels cryo'ed. One that was chambered and was a lights out shooter and the other was a Bartlien blank. After it was chambered both were sent to Mimi Trutec for Melonite QPQ. I have not shot them yet. My previous cryo barrels only machined better. Some shot well and some were so so. These 2 barrels were done by a professional metal treatment facility and not a home garage cryo place. Will it help, I hope, but don't know yet.
Butch
 
Posts: 8964 | Location: Poetry, Texas | Registered: 28 November 2004Reply With Quote
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Terry, thanks for the kind words.
I couldnt pay to have someone build one, so I'm doing it. With another REAL job, time seems limited.

I've done lots of standard round barrels for customers in the past. I may be over reacting...we'll see! 338x284 imp.


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Posts: 1641 | Location: Green Country Oklahoma | Registered: 03 August 2007Reply With Quote
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quote:
Over the last 18 years I have had perhaps 5 barrels cryo treated after they have been chambered to try and make them shoot more accurately without unexplained flyers or radical shifts in impact. Of these attempts I have only seen one of these barrels react in a very positive manner and it was the first barrel I ever sent in to have the procedure done.

I had just finished stocking a 416 Rigby barreled action that had been put together by the late Tom Burgess. The barrel was a cut rifle barrel and had a front sight, sling swivel base and a secondary recoil lug silver soldered to the barrel. The client had a Lion & Buffalo hunt scheduled and was to use this very rifle in 4 weeks time. Now completely assembled I was at the range trying desperately to zero the irons and the scope and was becoming ill as I shot one 8" group after another. After 200 plus rounds and a dozen different loads, bullets and mantras had been tried I called the client and gave him the good news. As the Ser # had already been registered on his gun permit across the pond I was beside myself as this was his first and only heavy rifle. I called a barrel maker to arrange a favor, more likely a miracle, and arranged to have those guys make a replacement barrel as close to the original contour as was possible and have it to me in 14 days. As the barrel maker would not have the blank ready to contour for 10 days I decided to give Cryo a try based on what I had read about the process in a number of issues of Precision Shooting Magazine. I next day aired the barrel to Kathy Fisher and she ran it through the process over the weekend and had it to me the following Tuesday. The rifle was reassembled and I headed to the range with black cloud hanging over my head. From that day on this rifle has shot .750 three shot groups with anything you shoot down it's bore. 350gr, 400gr, 410gr, softs, solids, Mono's, it really doesn't seem to matter. To say the results were nothing short of miraculous is a bit of an understatement. It didn't matter if the barrel was fouled, cold, our fired until it was to hot to touch the point of impact and group size stayed the same.

I wish I could report that subsequent inaccurate barrels showed the same amount improvement after the process but this was not the case. If I can get it done as a process of the barrels manufacture I'm all for it. But I'm not convinced it will solve all the accuracy issues that you could run up against. In this one instance however it was a project saver.


Thank you, good story and information at the same time!


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Steve Traxson

 
Posts: 1641 | Location: Green Country Oklahoma | Registered: 03 August 2007Reply With Quote
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