Is it correct to say that custom built rifles do not hold their value ie. one can buy a custom built rifle for less than the rifle cost to build.
Peter.

the three most important things in real estate are: Location. Location, and Location!

The single most important thing to consider on a custom rifle is the maker. Obviously, the quality has to be there; but dealing with "known" builders should insure that. Besides, you will be inspecting it closely before buying. With the economy the past thirty years, any custom rifle by a name builder will be worth more than it cost new. IMHO it takes six to ten years for inflation to surpass the building costs.

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
Is it correct to say that custom built rifles do not hold their value ie. one can buy a custom built rifle for less than the rifle cost to build.
Peter.

Peter,

That is absolutely true of most guns from all but a handfull of the very top smiths.

For that reason if you are a begining collector you are much better off buying high quality pieces on the used market. I can tell you from experience, not only is it an enjoyable past time to search for fine used guns, but with patience and time you should be able to find very nice customs from time to time for as little as 50-60% of replacement cost.

Even if you need to have some additional custom work done later on the piece, to meet your needs, assuming you use the services of a qualified and recognized smith you will still be way ahead of the game.

Of course, if money is not a major concern, then by all means the best route to go is to commision a few pieces that meet all of your desires right up front.


JC

Except for the one gun I built myself, every custom gun I own was bought new, usually for about half of what it cost to build. For example, I have a MG Highsmith Ruger No 1 engraved by Corky Frankolini that I bought for about half the cost of the engraving.

I have also found that the bigger the bore the better they hold their resale value. My guess on this is that there are millions of 30-06 out there but only so many .458 Lotts, 404 Jeff etc and not many cheap "off the self" options.

quote:

Originally posted by GeoffM24:
I have also found that the bigger the bore the better they hold their resale value. My guess on this is that there are millions of 30-06 out there but only so many .458 Lotts, 404 Jeff etc and not many cheap "off the self" options.

Geoff,

I would agree with that statement for certain. However, I would contend that it has less to do with the cartridge, and more to do with the action!

While there are truckloads of actions that can manage to feed and fire 30-06 shells, there is a much smaller population of actions that can reliably do that with most of the more desirable DG shells.

JC

yes.. custom guns usually sell for less than 50cents on the dollar for build/buy costs ...

there's some exceptions, but lets face it, for every rigby or purdey, hh or GH, there's 10,000 not so well knowns...

Jeff is correct for the most part but if you have the right Smith build the rifle a lot of the "loss" factor can be minimized if not eliminated in some cases.

Example ----- BR Rifle 100yd or 1k would not be the same person I would go to for a custom shotgun built on a SuperBrittes barreled action.

Pick your Artisans very carefully and you will not be disappointed.

quote:

every custom gun I own was bought new, usually for about half of what it cost to build

Vol717, would you please explain how you manage to do this?
Thanks, Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:

quote:

every custom gun I own was bought new, usually for about half of what it cost to build

Vol717, would you please explain how you manage to do this?
Thanks, Peter.

I think he means unfired condition in the secondary market.

quote:

there's some exceptions, but lets face it, for every rigby or purdey, hh or GH, there's 10,000 not so well knowns...

I agree! You can buy a custom bolt gun for $5k that will be worth $2.5k tomorrow, or get the same gun from a "name" maker for $20k, but it will be worth $20k next month. I don't know which is the 'better' deal here.

Bottom line for me, buy what YOU want to use, and don't worry about resale. We all rationalize things but I believe do well to separate our investments from our toys. MHO.

Sorry but I don't visit here often. You would be surprised how many guns are sold at a loss before they leave the gunsmith. The Highsmith No 1 was actually an exception because it had been fired about 100 times but it was in new condition when I bought it. It was back at the smith for a higher rear sight and it was put up for sale there.

Most of the custom rifles I buy cost me about ten to twenty times what they originally sold for.

Every gun I have ever owned, weather it was off the shelf or some kind of custom production or anything. If its a quality weapon, its holds it value.

My grandfather and father used to tell me all the time guns are just like buying stock. If you buy a good one you will not loose money.

But if you buy some heap of crap for $50 and expect to keep it for 20 years and sell for $500 your in for a surprise.

But one thing I must say, I dont have a gun collection for the expectations of selling it for profit. I have a gun collection cause i shoot many different calibers of rilfes and I enjoy it very much.

Now ever weapon I have has very good value, and a few have jumped in value cause they are pretty rare now. if i ever have to sell them cause of financial trouble I wil get my money back and amek some profit.

There are exceptions to the rule but for the most part high end rifles depreciate rapidly and most resell for $.50 on the $1 as Jeffesso mentioned. The only exceptions seem to be quality double rifles and the really high end bolts like H&H etc.
If you stop and think about it, a rifle purchased over the counter like a basic Rem or Win retains a higher % of it's value than 90% of custom bolt action rifles.

I'm with Omnivorous Bob on this one, Buy what you want and use them otherwise you will never allow yourself to fully enjoy them.

I have never commissioned a new custom myself but have bought new guns from their original owners and have usually paid between 40 and 60 cents on the dollar of what they cost to build.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Petrov:
Most of the custom rifles I buy cost me about ten to twenty times what they originally sold for.

Wow...care to share what type & who made these?

To name a few!
1. S.R. Griffin
2. James V. Howe
3. Griffin & Howe
4. Niedner-Shelhamer
5. Fred Adolph
6. Ludwig Wundhammer
7. Ross King
8. Frank Pachmayr
9. August Pachmayr
10. John Dubiel
11. Eric Johnson
12. Charles Daly
13. George Gibbs
14. Barney Worthen
15. Samuel Leonard
16. Harvey Rodgers
17. Alvin Linden
18. R.F. Sedgley
19. Bob Owen
20. W.S. Mielcarek
21. Kirkwood Bros.
22. Steve Meunier
23. August Heym
24. Adolph Minar
25. Hoffman Arms Company
26. John Wright & Son
27. Surkamer
28. Stoeger
29. Paul Jaeger

WOW again.....thats an impressive collection

Good on ya!

I've never lost $.40 on the dollar on any custom rifle I've ever sold. Made a little money on a few and lost a little on a few. That said while they may not be the best investment in your life, I enjoy holding the rifles more than any stock certificates I've ever owned.

How many of you use this same thought process when it comes time to replace your car? HA!

Terry

Michael Petrov's list reveals the secret of custom rifles which appreciate. The maker has to have been recognized as a quality builder and, preferably, been dead for a while!
Seriously, most custom rifles will probably sell for about half the building cost within the first ten years. Those which are from makers who are very good or, at least, perceived to be very good, will then appreciate along with the rate of inflation. This will be assisted by the maker's willingness to die in a timely manner.
On a dollar-for dollar basis, I doubt most custom rifles will increase in value much more than a pre-war Model 70, for instance.
Custom rifles are a reflection of the owner's desire to own something unique. They are the product of the maker's desire to produce something unique which functions at a high level. The value is partially a result of the interaction between the maker and the customer. The customer pays the maker for his time and effort and, in many cases, the maker puts more than just time into the job. Subsequent buyers pay only for what they can see and try keep such payment to a minimum. This is neither right nor wrong; it just IS.
Whether or not modern maker's efforts will follow the trends established by those classic builders, remains to be seen. I have some trouble believing any fiberglass stocked hunting rifle is going to appreciate greatly in value regardless of the assembler but I could be wrong.
I don't own anyone's custom rifles; only my own homemade efforts. I often wonder if I could even break even on them! Regards, Bill.

Bill, I sent you a PM

Why would you buy a cusom rifle and then turn around and sell it? You are paying to have it built to fit you with the caliber of your choice. I would expect to loose money if I turned around and sold any bespoke gun right after I bought it.

Customs are an interesting subject.
I am not sure that Michael's list has as much to do with the makers' notariety as it does with the era in which they were made. Quality doesn't hurt though of course.
For example, if one were to buy a custom from one of the makers on the list and also purchase a type A Mauser at the same time, the type A by now would have increased in value by a greater percentage than the custom eventhough the type A was considered a standard offering from the maker. At the time, the Mauser was $125 or so, the Hoffman was probably $1000 (Michael can tell me if I'm off here). Now, in 2010, the Mauser is not one eighth the value of the Hoffman.
Just look at pre '64 model 70s. The standard super grades are stupid money now and should by no means be considerd "rare" as compared to original Mausers or Newtons, let alone period customs based on these actions.
Now, if you add in the "modern" customs the pool gets even more murky.
Take the Casartelli .416 that Hallowell has on offer for $13K right now. This may not be everyones cup of tea, but I bet the cost to have this gun made today may be edging $30K. In that respect, it is quite a deal. Add 70 years to it and it very well may be looked upon with the admiration which the pioneer American custom makers garner today. I have held a Casartelli rifle and am hard pressed to assume there is much better. Only time will tell if the Italians' guns can keep up with the English and classic Americans in appreciation.

A Hoffman in a caliber like 375H&H started at around $200 and depending on sights and engraving could go to $275. A 30-06 ran from about $150-250.

I've seen Wundhammer's sell for 100 to 250 times their original cost.

This may have nothing to do with the cost or value of modern custom rifles but is fun.

All about the market. The target market for "guild" type rifles is very limited. They tend to be non mainstream in both actions and calibers. More dolled up and pretty ie better made for safes than hunting or that they won't be chunked in the back of a truck while hunting ie form over function. (How many of you have commented on "....oh what beautiful wood, too pretty to take hunting...... etc") Customers that have the $ to buy this type of a rifle prolly would commission one instead but of course they'd jump on a bargain. So prices would not favor the seller and a reason why they lose value.

The older, rare "known" makers are a different story, b/c of so few numbers. The same holds true of some of the modern synthetic guys. There is a more of a market for these rifles, whether you like it or not. More mainstream, ultralight, uber magnums, etc, just more appealing to a wider cusomer base. Echols et al rifles will hold their value much better than a guild rifle ever will.

Actually, more so.

I had the order sheet for a Legend years ago, it got lost in/under my crap in my desk. At the time the price was $8K. When I asked for another order sheet several months later the price bumped up to $11K. Had I ordered one, by the time it was built it would have appreciated in value. At the same time I saw a P. Holehan 416 Rigby on JJs site that I had to have, which nixed the Legend (sorry D'Arcy). $9K for a 12K gun. Well, I've since ordered a 270 and 300 Win from Patrick and the price/value of the rifles has nearly doubled during my wait.

Bottom line is it's about the type of gun and the target market.

Here's a thought:

I've got a Pre War mod 70 (1940 I think) 7mm Rem? Converted by J. Belk, can't remember if he barreled it (Lothar Walther) also or Jim Dubell. Custom bases for Conetrols by Jim, Williams bottom metal. Beautiful piece of english, stocked by (pre breakdown) Soverns. Shot it only about a dozen times. What's it worth? Will I lose money? Break even? While the work done on it is flawless, only one person is still reputable. Nothing special a good working hunting rifle, no bells/whistles. Seriously, what's it worth, and I'll tell you if they hold their value?!?!?

PS No I'm not hawking it...though everything of course is for sale for the right price: cars, wives, children...

FMC I think that Echols also enjoys wider name recognition due to gun magazines etc. so name recognition still plays a huge part. Sorry I have no knowledge of your Pre War model 70!
Peter.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Michael Petrov:
A Hoffman in a caliber like 375H&H started at around $200 and depending on sights and engraving could go to $275. A 30-06 ran from about $150-250.[QUOTE]

That is actually rather surprising - what year was that?
I have an original Stoeger catalog - the cover is missing so I don't know the exact date - but I am thinking early/mid 30's. (no model 70's)
They have engraved boxlock W&C Scott double rifles for $850 and square bridge Oberndorf Magnum Mauser 404's for $200. The Magnum actions were $70.
The W&C Scott Imperial Premier shotgun was $1200! Parker A-1 Specials were $750.
Of course takedown Winchester Mod. 95's in 405 Win were $43, Colt 1911's were $36.75.

This is fun research for sure!

In line with this thread is the following:

http://forums.accuratereloadin...2711043/m/4031085821

I am not familiar with McWhorter and I was not especially attracted by the calibers, but these seem like fine rifles. What's wrong with them? Price?
Peter.