I make my own stocks as a hobby and I always dread the finishing part because I'm never happy with the way it takes so many coats of finish to fill the pores with finish. I have tried to use fillers designed to be rubbed into the pores after grain raising before the finishing process starts, but I can always see the color contrast between the pores and the rest of the finish. Right now I am using Permalyn sealer and finish on my wood, also experimenting with Waterlok. Both are nice finishes, but I still put way too many coats on, cutting them down with 0000 steel wool to gradually fill the pores. I'm sure that the professionals don't spend this much time filling the grain with finish. There must be an easier, less time-consuming method of filling the pores without the tell-tale signs of grain fillers. I even used Brownell's Acra-Glas as a filler once. It worked, but took too much effort to get the wood leveled before starting the finish process. Ideas, even secrets, anyone?

minwax sanding sealer, 2-4 coats, its awesome

There is no easy way to do it, and do it right. My method is to apply spar varnish (or epoxy) and sand back to bare wood. Repeat as necessary until pores are filled, proceed with finish of choice. It will stay put, unlike a lot of other commercial fillers I've tried, but is labor intensive. Like most things in life what you get out of it is equal to what you put into it.

actually, there's several easy ways, and sanding sealer is specifically designed and formulated to do it... goes buy a $10 can and try it .. amazingly easy, fast, and effective .. it doesn't all have to be chicken blood and panther piss mysteries

quote:

Originally posted by gnoahhh:
There is no easy way to do it, and do it right. My method is to apply spar varnish (or epoxy) and sand back to bare wood. Repeat as necessary until pores are filled, proceed with finish of choice. It will stay put, unlike a lot of other commercial fillers I've tried, but is labor intensive. Like most things in life what you get out of it is equal to what you put into it.

Pretty much the same as I do. Rottenstone can be added for a filler, I thin the varnish a bit. This method is a bit hard on checkering tools.

Here is a method I was taught in gunsmith school:


Wet Coat Poly-Fill Technique

1. Prepare stock for finishing

2. Spray 3-5 coats(or until you see the stock is not soaking any more up) of a good polyurethane varnish(satin or gloss)on the stock, allowing about 2 hrs between coats so the previous coat is still very tacky. No sanding or steel wool between coats obviously.

3. Take several old credit cards and cut a few into varying widths, keeping a factory edge on at least one end or side. Then sand or draw file a 45 degree edge on one side.

4. When the last coat dries to a gooey/tacky state, use the prepared edge of the credit card to "squeegee" the soft finish across the grain. Wipe the plastic card off after each pass. Use the different widths to cover the entire stock. Spray another thin coat on and check for any missed pores. Repeat if necessary.

5. When satisfied, set stock aside for at least 1-2 days to dry.

6. Sand or buff with steel wool to get a uniform, smooth surface.

7. Apply final coating of choice.

Advantages:

a. Seals and fills in a single operation without waiting for each coat to dry and no cutting down between coats

b. Doesn't obscure the grain

c. Increases depth of finish

d. Takes less time

I should have mentioned that I tried sanding sealer years ago and I didn't like the muddy look that obscures the grain. Same with colored fillers. I just don't like the dark filler in the pores. Maybe the acra-glass method isn't so bad after all. I'm going to try the poly method next stock. Thanks.

I use a wet sand method. If I am using True Oil, I wet a piece of 600 grit in mineral spirits keep it damp while sanding the coats. Wipe it off across the grain. It only takes a couple of times to completely fill the pores. Once the pores are filled I finish to gloss, and cut back with rubbing compound or a white 3m pad to a nice satin finish.

Sanding sealers are not the best way to go if you want a professional looking finish. Try General Finishes Arm-R-Seal. Put on two heavy coats and sand back to the wood-NO STEEL WOOL-if the pores aren't full you will have steel wool in the finish. Put on two or three light coats. If done correctly, this will give a nice finish. For my top end stocks, I use Velvit Oil but it does take time to use this finish. Hope this helps.

gunmaker... not finish coats, bu closing the pores.. i am interested if you think i meant that the sanding sealer would be the ONLY finish, as the question was filling the pores.

velvit is cool stuff.. its a little redder than i had hoped for, but never does the gummy coat stuff for me.

I've used Terry's process with good results.

What we are into is filling the pores so the final finish is "in the wood", correct?

I learned this from a great and famous, still alive and doing it today, gunmaker. After final finish sanding, I don't bother with whiskering (horrors). I take my finish, whatever it is you wish, and thin it about 50% with mineral spirits. Take one of those 1" foam brushes and paint the stock, hang it up and when it sets (it don't dry)add more and more until it won't take any more. At that point you have a shiny surface with no dull areas showing. This indicates the pores are filled. I then use a series of scrapers and scrape the surface down to the wood, take all of the finish of the surface and what you have left is in the wood. Next, do your wet sanding. I start with 320 and keeping the paper wet with thinned finsh, sand down to the wood. Be careful to not round off any edges you wish to keep sharp. Let it set for a day or two and then repeat with 400 grit and then 600 grit. You can go finer to obtain a shinier finish or go with Brownell's rubbing compound.

A lot of the stockmakers will use an exterior varnish like McCloskeys in the first rounds to fill the pores.

One of my gunsmiths gave me his formula today. He uses polyurethane floor finish. He coats the sanded stocks with several successive coats, similar to Jim's approach above. He then lets it dry for a week. The next step is to wet sand as Jim describes. Let it dry for another week, correct any flaws, then apply the finish. His wood finish is flawless. He showed me his personal highwall BPCR today. After 20 years and a lot of shooting, the wood still looks magnificent.

Thanks Jim, Its good of you guys who do this for a living to help us hobbyists. If I had to finish stocks for a living, I'd starve to death by breakfast. DW

I do it pretty much the same way Jim does it, but I am in NO WAY a professional. I sand instead of scrape just because every time I pick up a scraper it acts like a chisel. My bad.

The BEST lesson I ever got from anyone on stock finishing came from Customstox. One day after a couple PMs he said, "I don't give a shit what finish you use, but Larry, you got to learn some patience or you will just end up doing it again." I don't complain about the time required any more.

Part of finishing, in my experience, has been keeping at it until it is as perfect as I can get it. Fast doesn't work too well for me...but since I don't have to make a living at it, slow is fine.

I just picked up some filler from DemBart...anyone used it?

Jim has it right for really bringing the innate inner beauty and COLOR out of the wood.
I have seen too many high grade blanks turned and finished with urethanes and synthetics that are too thick and never get IN the wood. as a result the color is just not there. Same with spray finihes like Cooper...horrible finish really.
Urethanes and synthetics if they are being used should be applied after the stock has had the grain filled with oil. Use a dryer like Cobalt or Japan and it will speed things along.
That way you get the color and the grain filled.
Thinner the oil the better...
It really only goes in a few thousands anyway.

Another method is just to start wet sanding with oil. Thin oil.

Sanding sealer should never have muddied up a stock...the sealer may have been old and the polymeres in it were going bad causing a cloudy appearance. OR, your stock had a lot of end grain and should have been filled by wet sanding first...then sealer.

The biggest problem we have seen is that makers and hobbyist use just ONE finish when the finish should be selected to bring out the best in each stock due to whether or not the stock is light colored, dark colored, end grain etc...

best of luck.

Adam

I'm not playing the devils advocate here..but in some circles of European stockmakers the grain is not completely filled. "Looks too much like plastic"

I kind of go along with this because even if a stock is completely filled when delivered, a couple years later, the grain usually shows.

No...I see nothing wrong with a bit of grain being evident

Apparently Dale Goens didn't mind a some of the pores being incompletely filled.

After much research and experimentation, I have come up with a blend of commercial finishes that permits me to fill the pores by wet sanding in three applications or less. The product is a gel that dries fast and permits me to top coat it with most any finish. It is a bit of a pain to use because it dries hard so you have to remove the excess before it hardens, I wonder if there is a market for a product like this. Also I would hsve to find out if it can be shipped through the mails or UPS.

I use Brownells custom oil spray....great stuff.

I sand the stock to 80 grit and spray the stock.

Let it dry and sand the stock again but this time with 120 grit until the spray is gone.....and spray it again

A third time I sand with 150 grit until the spray is removed.....and then spray a third time.

This time when the spray hardens I rub it briskly with a medium steel wool and spray a last time.....now rub the finish with 0000 wool.....strangely the pores are filled....

Years ago I used a hand rub tru oil.....it took as much as 19 coats once to fill the pores...never again!

I like Brownells custom oil...good finish and fills pores nicely.

IMO, if the pores are not filled the job is not done!

I've only had the luxury once to work on English.....what a delight!.....filling pores is automatic!

I have always had great results using Dem-Bart stock filler & sealer. Very quick & easy.

quote:

Originally posted by AFreeman:


Another method is just to start wet sanding with oil. Thin oil.



Adam

That is how I do it as well. When I am sanded down to where I am ready for the finish I will wet sand in the first coats with the pure tung oil cut with about 70% Veg turps. Rub it by hand and wipe off so it is just wet Leave till dry and repeat till the pores are filled. Then I will hand rub on and let dry as many coats as needed except the last coat is rubbed on with 1000 grit wet and dry and rubbed off with hessian after an hour or two. Have put 15-20 coats on some stocks.

Von Gruff.

I've tried Dem Bartt and other fillers. They make the wood appear muddy. This stuff is clear and shows the pores as just slightly darker than the natural wood. It will work on any species of wood. I'm making stocks for Martinis right now using Juglans Nigra and the huge pores fill right up.

quote:

Originally posted by D Humbarger:
I have always had great results using Dem-Bart stock filler & sealer. Very quick & easy.

I heard or read somewhere that this product uses silica as the filling agent and so is hard on checkering tools. Can you comment?

Also I gotta agree with Duane on this one, in many cases it's better to leave some pores unfilled depending upon the wood. In my part of the country the humidity is pretty ferocious and so stock finish simply doesn't dry very fast or very well. It's not uncommon to check a rifle 6 months after completion and find that the finish has sunk down into a few pores here and there.

Especially if using Tru-Oil and/or not allowing a full 3 weeks between coats. Repeat, a full 3 weeks.

When I lived out West, one day was usually plenty. Around here, a full 3 weeks.
Regards, Joe

Gang

Does anyone use a drying cabinet. I put the stock is a closed box to keep dust off when drying. Would a heated cabinet affect the stock, I'm thinking difference in humidity to the normal environ?

Rich

quote:

I heard or read somewhere that this product uses silica as the filling agent and so is hard on checkering tools. Can you comment?

I used Dem-Bart to fill the grain on my 9.3x62 that Bill Soverns checkered & it came out great. Bill never mentioned any problems.

It's basically a PVC type formulatiion.

quote:

It's basically a PVC type formulatiion.

Are you talking poly vinyl chloride?

Someone put me on to this many years ago and I still believe in it. Now, it's almost impossible to find; but it still exists. It's Flecto Varathane Natural Oil Finish, #66 Clear. I believe RustOleum bought Flecto. I have been told you have to go to Lowe's or Home Depot and order it.It's very thin and easy to use but use rubber gloves of course.
Anyway, once you get the shaping done and are starting to sand; sand wet with this. Leave it on,dripping, when done for the time being and let it get almost dry. Start again. With wet sanding, you don't have to start as course as dry. Keep wet sanding til you get down to 350 or 400 grit.Then completely rub, not wipe, off.Keep doing that til all your sanding scratches are gone. Be sure to rub it completely off the surface each time now. You will see shiny places where it is still there.You can even use the wet sanding to help remove; then use a cloth to complete the removal. What you get is an in the wood seal/finish that gives a warm, golden glow to the wood and brings out all the highlights. It's completely waterproof.No need to whisker. This comes out kinda satin finished, not a high gloss.Really doesn't need a finish coat but you can add a rubbed in coat of true oil.
Charles

While I was at Fajens in Warsaw MO a number of years ago I saw them filling pores....they had a "sludge" appearing solution that they wiped on....allowed to partially dry and wiped off.

It successfully filled the pores....and in one swipe.....but the result wasn't at all to my likeing as the pores were all dark in color.

I've seen Winchester stocks like this as well (maybe Fajen did it for them)

The hand rubbed finish (like tru-oil) is far superior as one can't even see the pores.....completely filled and not visible in any way.

It's one thing to fill them....another thing to clog them shut.

I've always been a fan of Fajens....but their method of filling pores wasn't at all to my liking...There's a difference between cheap and thrifty!

Sounds familiar, could it have come from Ed Shulin??

quote:

Originally posted by charles speck:
Someone put me on to this many years ago and I still believe in it. Now, it's almost impossible to find; but it still exists. It's Flecto Varathane Natural Oil Finish, #66 Clear. I believe RustOleum bought Flecto.

I just use Daleys Seafin Ship n shore. Slather bunches of coats till it dont take no more then wet sand and wipe the mud back across the pores.

Daley's Seafin +1!

Richj, no it didn't . I had a friend in Roanoke who swore by it; and I think it's that good too. I first picked it up in of all places, K Mart!You probably remember when our "big dumb brother" took the petroleum based products and turned them into water based ? That's why it's so hard to find; but I've been told it is still obtainable.I'm squirreling a can back for personal needs.Anytime you ding a stock (and who doesn't?)that has this finish or any oil finish; it's so easy to repair with this stuff.
Charles

The smith that did my 7Mauser uses (used) the same finish. He was in Trinidad in the 80's

quote:

Originally posted by woodnut:
Richj, no it didn't . I had a friend in Roanoke who swore by it; and I think it's that good too. I first picked it up in of all places, K Mart!You probably remember when our "big dumb brother" took the petroleum based products and turned them into water based ? That's why it's so hard to find; but I've been told it is still obtainable.I'm squirreling a can back for personal needs.Anytime you ding a stock (and who doesn't?)that has this finish or any oil finish; it's so easy to repair with this stuff.
Charles

I've seen the Flecto Varathane recommended in print somewhere, years ago. I don't remember Ed recommending anything but varnish or Tru-Oil back in the '60s but he was young and had just begun teaching then, I'm sure he developed other preferences over the years.
Regards, Joe

Perhaps I can shed some light on the Flecto #66 recommendation. In the early 80's my dad (Keesey),and I were attending one of the summer N.R.A. classes at Trinidad and the Instuctor was Don Klein. He had a matched pair of Mausers that he had stocked in Mannlicher fashion that were incredible. The finish that he used on those stocks was the Flecto #66 mentioned above. As I recall Don said he preferred Velvit Oil or Flecto #66 as his two favorite finishes. I remember Ed was particularly impressed with the finish on those rifles and that may be why he started using Flecto #66.
Cheers,
Gary

I am in fact filling the pores on a stock right now. I just got thru with my 6th pass. Its a new stock for a CZ550 in 416 Rigby. I think this will do it. Just wet sanded in another coat of Watco. It may just be that its "close enough". After all, I have a Kimber Classic that looks like none of the pore are filled. I wonder how they finish their stocks? Anyway, I have tried a bunch of different finishes and I hate threads like this because they always make me second guess what I am using and make me curious about the ones I haven't. I used Permalyn sealer for a while, went back to Tru-Oil, then to Watco now you have got me wondering about Daly's and Velvit. Oh yeah, I tried Flecto Varathane but for me it was to much like plastic or the Weatherby finish. Tried Deft, Wipe on Poly and on and on.