Butch,
It can't! If you go back to the original thread
http://forums.accuratereloadin...043/m/1681066391/p/1
You will see my reasoning there. I'm sure SR4759 will be around to tell us how wrong we are without explaining how to employ the EDM process in blind non linear corners and how he would handle the HAZ (heat affected zone). In my opinion a CNC turning center with live tooling milling capability would be the preferred production method for this type work where all the work could be completed in 1 simple setup. Here is a youtube from the prior thread showing that type of capability.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VMzs1Mqxzg

m4220

I emailed McGowan about a barrel for a custom project and their response says they no longer offer a full length rib.

I offered to write the program for their CNC mill and have gotten no response.

Duane-absolutely amazing work!

I agree with m4220.

Drew,

call them and talk to Dan Wynne personally.

Rich

Duane, thank you for letting the rest of us know how inept we are. Beautiful work and I can understand the time.

Thanks for the wrong number dial the other day. Was good to hear from you.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Drew,

call them and talk to Dan Wynne personally.

Rich

Thanks Rich.

quote:

Originally posted by Woodhits:

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:

I'm preoccupied with driving the jag back to St Louis for the weekend.

If you're going to complain about being middle class, you'll get more sympathy if you don't mention your Jag in the same thread.

Yup! Rich ; you should buy a Super Cub!

I know this may be a dumb question but what cartridge is this rifle going to be.
I see the sling swivel eye, but no under barrel recoil lug.

Mr. Wiebe-

In looking at the pics above, how do you cut your crowns? Piloted or single point on a lathe?

I ask because it looks like a piloted tool was used to cut the crown which left a few minor scratches across the top of the rifling?

Also, does that barrel profile have any affect on accuracy? It seems asymetrical and would therefore disrupt the harmonics of the barrel?

quote:

Originally posted by lockingblock:
I ask because it looks like a piloted tool was used to cut the crown which left a few minor scratches across the top of the rifling?

Also, does that barrel profile have any affect on accuracy? It seems asymetrical and would therefore disrupt the harmonics of the barrel?

I have a feeling that you haven't been around top quality custom hunting rifles and probably not around competition rifles either.

Your feeling would be incorrect.

There are a lot of ways to cut a crown. I'm just curious as to how that specific crown was cut. My experience is primarily with my Issued MK 11 and formerly, with an issued M24. My personal rifles follow that experience and are threaded/suppressed accordingly which is a bit different than most of rifles on here.

Just trying to learn how it's done in blued steel and walnut.

Butch's observation is still true.
These rifles aren't match rifles, accuracy is defined in animals not targets. It's similar to comparing Jackson Pollack to scribbles. Similar but miles apart.
Adam

We can all admire perfect checkering and stock finish. What about performance. Quantifiable real world data driven performance?

Bedding stability...I haven't owned a custom rifle without pillars and bedding in a decade as it demonstrably enhances long term performance of the rifle and hurts nothing in terms of aesthetics. Yet, I rarely see it discussed?

Accuracy standards? This is a clear performance metric that sets smiths and components apart.

Action trueing, chamber specs, reamer design and geometry, crowns....I know these matter from personal experience and yet, I don't see them discussed when talking about rifles that run 15k?

It just seems strange to admire the paint job and not look under the hood.

Not being critical of the smith or components, just curious about why components were selected and why a smith would choose the TTPs he chose.

The work is beautiful...just wondering what's on the inside.

I don't know anything about you or your knowledge or experience in shooting, but I suspect if you spend some time looking around you will learn that quite the contrary is true.

On the other hand you could be starting an argument just to vent some frustrations. Thats fine too, but do it elsewhere than here on Duane's thread.

If you look there are ample threads here chock full of quantifiable data derived from real world expeditions, developing loads at the range, and general experimentation. And while you may not be involved in the discussion, the discussion is quite prevalent. It is a discussion that happens with almost every custom rifle. From reamer design, bedding, barrel construction, action truing, it is all relevant, and discussed.

Don't mind Butch, he's that friendly to everyone.

If you want to discuss the symmetry of the barrel design, harmonics, thermal expansion (more relevant in my opinion) of an integrally machined barrel, feel free to start a thread to raise your questions.

quote:

Originally posted by lockingblock:
We can all admire perfect checkering and stock finish. What about performance. Quantifiable real world data driven performance?

Bedding stability...I haven't owned a custom rifle without pillars and bedding in a decade as it demonstrably enhances long term performance of the rifle and hurts nothing in terms of aesthetics. Yet, I rarely see it discussed?

Accuracy standards? This is a clear performance metric that sets smiths and components apart.

Action trueing, chamber specs, reamer design and geometry, crowns....I know these matter from personal experience and yet, I don't see them discussed when talking about rifles that run 15k?

It just seems strange to admire the paint job and not look under the hood.

Not being critical of the smith or components, just curious about why components were selected and why a smith would choose the TTPs he chose.

The work is beautiful...just wondering what's on the inside.

You have undoubtedly never examined under the hood of a true wood stocked custom. Please post about your true knowledge and not your supposition.

I have machined some half-octagonal barrels which, while they wouldn't make you puke, were not that nice. I would be pretty happy with that.
I suspect the marks on the lands are simply the tooling marks in the unlapped, cut-rifled, barrel. The marks show up very well due to the lighting and magnification.
While asymetrical contours might tend to distort from heating, it is not something which would be of any concern under hunting conditions. Under some circumstances, it is perfectly OK for function to follow form. A rifle like this definitely fits into the "artistic expression" category and like so many rifles I see pictured on this site, makes me want to line a bunch of mine up on the fence and throw rocks at them. Regards, Bill.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Leeper:
A rifle like this definitely fits into the "artistic expression" category and like so many rifles I see pictured on this site, makes me want to line a bunch of mine up on the fence and throw rocks at them. Regards, Bill.

Amen.

I see nothing wrong with your question...thats how one learns around here...seems some are getting sensitive in their old age.
Most quality rifle are nothing more than target rifles in a tuxedo. A hell lot of work goes into an ol Mauser to make it the best it can be. Every aspect of the build is poured over and in most cases more work then it should be just to get to another point that needs addressed in another manner. I think you'll find out that 99% of these rifles that ARE hunted with have gone through the same process as a target gun in the fact that many powders and loads where developed to get the most out of said rifle. Now, I do not have your answer to the question you ask of Duane but I can assure you he sweat over that crown as much as he would any other aspect of the build. I think your question is valid but may have been presented a little strong, but this is the internet and the tone can only be read in words. I hope we are able to ask anything here and learn, I know I have and some of my questions in the past I wasnt so sure I asked them right...anyway,

quote:

Also, does that barrel profile have any affect on accuracy? It seems asymetrical and would therefore disrupt the harmonics of the barrel?

First of all I admire and marvel over this kind of work that Duane continues to exhibit, but I also beleive the question asked is valid based on a a lifetime in machine shop work and have raised the same question before as well. I don't think anybody is expecting that beautiful gun to shoot to the capabilities of a gun built for bench rest shooting but to be consistant for shot placement on game as intended. With new technologies in metalurgy & cryogenics which were invented for a reason makes the question reasonable to ask. I beleive Duane has already said that he did not cryo the barrel and I think the question of how consistant does the rifle shoot over say 20 rounds in simulated conditions in which the gun was built to perform? I don't beleive the question was asked in malice but rather to learn! Duane would you/ or the owner of this beautiful rifle mind showing some targets from several shot stings? Inquiring minds would like to learn!

Best Regards
m4220

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:

quote:

Originally posted by lockingblock:
We can all admire perfect checkering and stock finish. What about performance. Quantifiable real world data driven performance?

Bedding stability...I haven't owned a custom rifle without pillars and bedding in a decade as it demonstrably enhances long term performance of the rifle and hurts nothing in terms of aesthetics. Yet, I rarely see it discussed?

Accuracy standards? This is a clear performance metric that sets smiths and components apart.

Action trueing, chamber specs, reamer design and geometry, crowns....I know these matter from personal experience and yet, I don't see them discussed when talking about rifles that run 15k?

It just seems strange to admire the paint job and not look under the hood.

Not being critical of the smith or components, just curious about why components were selected and why a smith would choose the TTPs he chose.

The work is beautiful...just wondering what's on the inside.

You have undoubtedly never examined under the hood of a true wood stocked custom. Please post about your true knowledge and not your supposition.

You sure are friendly.

I'm not trying to pee in your Cheerios here. I'm just asking to learn.

As you are the subject matter expert, can you explain?

What are your thoughts on "under the hood" performance? How true do you find the various commonly used dangerous game actions to be? What do you true up and why? Discuss chamber specs for a dangerous game rifle, crown design, barrel contour, your thoughts on proper bedding and why your method is optimal.

Those are all questions that a gunsmith should be able to answer. I ask those on every rifle I have had built and good gunsmiths are generally very willing to expound on why and what they believe.

quote:

Originally posted by lockingblock:

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:

quote:

Originally posted by lockingblock:
We can all admire perfect checkering and stock finish. What about performance. Quantifiable real world data driven performance?

Bedding stability...I haven't owned a custom rifle without pillars and bedding in a decade as it demonstrably enhances long term performance of the rifle and hurts nothing in terms of aesthetics. Yet, I rarely see it discussed?

Accuracy standards? This is a clear performance metric that sets smiths and components apart.

Action trueing, chamber specs, reamer design and geometry, crowns....I know these matter from personal experience and yet, I don't see them discussed when talking about rifles that run 15k?

It just seems strange to admire the paint job and not look under the hood.

Not being critical of the smith or components, just curious about why components were selected and why a smith would choose the TTPs he chose.

The work is beautiful...just wondering what's on the inside.

You have undoubtedly never examined under the hood of a true wood stocked custom. Please post about your true knowledge and not your supposition.

You sure are friendly.

I'm not trying to pee in your Cheerios here. I'm just asking to learn.

As you are the subject matter expert, can you explain?

What are your thoughts on "under the hood" performance? How true do you find the various commonly used dangerous game actions to be? What do you true up and why? Discuss chamber specs for a dangerous game rifle, crown design, barrel contour, your thoughts on proper bedding and why your method is optimal.

Those are all questions that a gunsmith should be able to answer. I ask those on every rifle I have had built and good gunsmiths are generally very willing to expound on why and what they believe.

I truly believe that you are questioning Duane and his product and methods. Below are a 3 very accurate wood rifles. None are pillar bedded. All have shot 1/8" MOA and better.




First pic is one I did in Redwood, 2nd one is Walnut, and the last is cedar.
I have fooled with Cryo for years. Most Cryo places do not do a true Cryo, you may as well use your frig. 300 deg. is not true Cryo. I've Cryo'd barrel steel before any machining, after rifling, and after finished machined. I've only done about 30 barrels and see no improvement at all in accuracy or making the barrel last longer. Myself and the majority of competitors no longer do this.
As far as machine work on mausers. Much more money was spent on this mini mauser receiver than a custom receiver. It was done for 2 purposes, squared and trued for accuracy and eye appeal. It is chambered in 220 Russian and will be back from Dean Zollinger very soon I hope with a nice walnut stock.

I have several others that I can show you.
The 220 Russian should be a .250-.375 rifle. I have a 284 built on a 1909 Argentine that is a true 1/2"-5/8" rifle. These rifles and my other Enfield and Mauser customs were built primarily because I wanted them and yes they all shoot minute of ANIMAL. If you want a comp. rifle, you use comp. components and building methods. I don't use my comp. rifles to hunt with. The 45X scopes don't work in a hunting situation and it is hard to hunt with a 3" wide fore end.
I did build one of my Grandsons a rifle in 30BR with a pillar bedded Brown Precision stock, Shilen barrel, and a Jewell trigger. It has an older pre USA made Zeiss 3X9 scope. He has shoot at least 20 animals(deer,hogs,&coyotes)all of them 1 shot kills.


I hope you see where I'm coming from. A great hunting gun will not shoot with a comp. rifle, but they don't miss animals.
Kinda like a Bentley and Prius competing for the MPG crown.
I may have been a little testy with you, sorry.

Lots of questions worth asking about that rifle, however, it is not a target rifle and it isn't a varmint rifle that has to shoot to the same spot with a hot barrel. A 10 or 20 shot group isn't the proper measure of its performance unless each shot is from a cold barrel. Its the repeatable precision of the first round out of a cold barrel that's important. It should also be able to deliver acceptable accuracy with three rapid shots, anything more isn't necessary for such a rifle. Now if you have a field of prairie dog elephants it would be different.

Jerry Liles

Jerry,
You said it in a nicer way than I.

Hi Butch,
When I read Lockingblocks post & see terminology such as SME (subject matter expert) I am betting he is from the aerospace industry and probally the technical side? Also where my background comes from, in that industry exotic materials, metalurgy & design & machine technology are costantly evolving and being tested, stress relief, shotpeen, cryo, ect... are more in the norm than not in asymetrical configurations where configuration stability is paramount. He, like I has probally never worked on a rifle of this complexity but marvels at the thought and is just being proactive is trying to learn. Duane is a Master & an Artist that we can see the Fit & Form shown on these pages, however Function also plays an important role with the product. I'm betting Duane has tested it & has proven it's funtion, especially in knowing how much admiration he has for the man he built it for! There are those of us who have concidered trying a project like this at some point & would like to have as much knowledge from lessons learned by people who been there/ Done that! I think we are all on the same side here and know that the only stupid question, is one not asked!

PS. agree with you both on the 1-3 shot strings, would just like to see several results & what kind of consistancy can be expected.


Best Regards
m4220

Some of us understand! I'll bet it will kill animals also.

I have one somewhat like the one being talked about. It will shoot 5 shots at 3/8" group easily if I do my part. I did use a bench at the range and a home made front rest.Will it do that at 20 rounds repeated, dont know. I wouldnt treat something I have so much work tied up in to try and tear it up. The barrel is as such, ordered as a blank and machined, no black magic was used and for its intended purpose its a very good rifle. Wood stock, Mauser action, Shielen barrel, did glass bed it.

It is a marvel of precision machining and artistry in wood and metal. I suspect it will also be more than acceptably accurate for its purpose. My only caveat other than jealousy is I would not want to shoot that barrel out and have to contemplate a replacement.

quote:

Originally posted by Jerry Liles:
It is a marvel of precision machining and artistry in wood and metal. I suspect it will also be more than acceptably accurate for its purpose. My only caveat other than jealousy is I would not want to shoot that barrel out and have to contemplate a replacement.

Jerry,
I think it would take a lot to shoot it out. Something for your Grandkids to worry about.

To answer the question about accuracy of a barrel like this, I have loaded for and shot three rifles that Duane built with integral rib, ramp, half-round:half-octagon, etc. One is a .375 H&H on a Model 70 action that shoots 5-shot groups under one-inch with every bullet I tried, and consistently was around 5/8-inch with 270-grain Barnes-X bullets, one is a 7-30 Waters on a martini cadet action that shoots 3/4 to 7/8-inch groups with Nosler Ballistic Tips, and one started life as Duane's personal .270 until he shot it out. Danny Peterson rebored it for .30-06 and even rebored it shoots right at one-inch with 180-grain Barnes X or 2200-grain Nosler partitions.