Also, my choice of Hill Country Rifles, who delivers sub MOA rifles on time each of the 4 times I have used them, is based on quality, value received, communication with them.

They have built a rifle for me using an action I chose, a barrel I chose, a trigger I chose, a stock configured the way I chose, delivered when they said at the price agreed with a 1/3 deposit. I did not get a "custom" wood stock but could have for more money.

So comparing them to Walt Disney was cute and funny, but I received what I wanted and what I asked for with no excuses for being late or whatever.

Again, your skill is admired and you have an excellent, well earned reputation. I have no issue with you.

Duane
Can we quote you on this?

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
Can't but help stand up for the gunmaker that takes years to get around to your project. A custom gun customer must have two things...the ability to pay and the ability to wait..not sure which is more important.

Does that make you Michelangelo di Lodovico Buonarroti Simoni ???

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
Sorry man, putting Hill Country in the same thread as Clayton Nelson is comparing Walt Disney to Rembrandt

I think the question isn't how long it takes to build a rifle, it is the expectation agreed-upon at the time of the order. If I ordered a rifle and was told it would be done in a year, I wouldn't expect to wait three. That said, if I begged the gunmaker to build me a rifle despite his known backlog, I'd pay my deposit and wait patiently.

The key in this situation, and any business, is communication. Being late is not the disaster, failing to communicate and update creates the most angst.

"And what, pray tell, must the gunmaker bring to the table?"

As a customer, I decide if I have the time and money. But why is it so hard for gunmakers to act like professional businessman (or professional artists if you prefer) and deliver on the contracts they make with customers?

Duane:
Even though the question was not asked of me specifically, I will answer...
Doctor-Does tests and give me a diagnosis when promised. Meets appointment time as agreed upon except in cases of emergency and then is scheduled the next day or so, not year or more.
Accountant-Gets my taxes done by the specified time.
Electrician-Shows up at agreed upon time, does work in the specified time, not adding hours, days, months or years to project.
Plumber-See electrician above.
Mechanic-Gets my auto in on time, and has it finished on time. If there is a delay due to a part needing to be ordered, he does this very clever thing...he calls me! Haven't had to wait days or months or years past promised due time yet.
Any others you want to know about that run a business in a true, professional manner?

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Scott:
"And what, pray tell, must the gunmaker bring to the table?"

As a customer, I decide if I have the time and money. But why is it so hard for gunmakers to act like professional businessman (or professional artists if you prefer) and deliver on the contracts they make with customers?

Ask that of your doctor, accountant, lawyer,. brick mason, carpenter, electrician ans....ans knowledge, skill, education, experience, patience.../and meybe even the couresty of dealing with foolish questions

To answer your PM, yes, I post a PM if it is insulting and tactless. Your comment if I drive a Kia or Yugo, that I must be a practical person - yes I am a practical person and know more than to accept terms that I do not like and then pay for the privilege. Your insult to my chosen gun smith was tasteless and tacky as well, which was made in a public forum.

I have received other PM's about your PM's, so you really do not want to go there in this entire discussion.

To answer this latest post - yes, I ask this of my doctor, my lawyer, my accountant, my brick mason, my carpenter and electrician. I ask his terms, if they meet mine, I hire them. If they do not, I do not hire them.

It is my money, my time and my purchase.

So, again I say - I have no issue with you. YOu have great skill and talent. I choose others for the work I want done that my terms and meet my timetable and my standard for quality.

Thanks
I will quote with your permission post as well.
If you have so little concern for your customers (of which I will never be) I think they should know what kind of prima donna they are dealing with.

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:
Duane
Can we quote you on this?

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
Can't but help stand up for the gunmaker that takes years to get around to your project. A custom gun customer must have two things...the ability to pay and the ability to wait..not sure which is more important.

Yeah...staple it to your forehead for all I care

Duane
You never answered the question.
You did not even try.

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Scott:
"And what, pray tell, must the gunmaker bring to the table?"

As a customer, I decide if I have the time and money. But why is it so hard for gunmakers to act like professional businessman (or professional artists if you prefer) and deliver on the contracts they make with customers?

Ask that of your doctor, accountant, lawyer,. brick mason, carpenter, electrician ans....ans knowledge, skill, education, experience, patience.../and meybe even the couresty of dealing with foolish questions

I've seen lots of complaints on this forum, but never from any of Duane's customers.

SR4957,
You're an ass! All a person has to do is check your posts on a lot of subjects. Doubt there are any smiths that will work with you.

quote:

Originally posted by Woodhits:
I've seen lots of complaints on this forum, but never from any of Duane's customers.

Nor have I, hence my puzzlement on his posts.
I repeat, his work and reputation are high quality.

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:

So comparing them to Walt Disney was cute and funny, but I received what I wanted and what I asked for with no excuses for being late or whatever.

Well, cute but true.

Duane, I'm not sure what you are getting at. All professionals deal with stupid questions and I try to answer them with tact and respect. I work with and do business with many professionals in many different fields and seldom do I see the attitude you are putting into this discussion. Mike

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by Mike Scott:
"And what, pray tell, must the gunmaker bring to the table?"

As a customer, I decide if I have the time and money. But why is it so hard for gunmakers to act like professional businessman (or professional artists if you prefer) and deliver on the contracts they make with customers?


Ask that of your doctor, accountant, lawyer,. brick mason, carpenter, electrician ans....ans knowledge, skill, education, experience, patience.../and meybe even the couresty of dealing with foolish questions

My 1 cent. My only connection to Mr. Nelson was on scope rings. My smith wasn't just satisfied with them. He replaced them properly.
Mr Wiebe has not built a rifle for me, but has been very prompt. Just minor things, but for the price quoted and time quoted.
I have no additional projects in work and at my age don't plan any, but I am happy with my smiths.

quote:

Originally posted by marley7x57:

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:

So comparing them to Walt Disney was cute and funny, but I received what I wanted and what I asked for with no excuses for being late or whatever.

Well, cute but true.

Marley,
Until you have HCR's work, I would not call it " Walt Disney" or the implication of it being " Mickey Mouse" . I am an engineer and understand to. Some degree quality and function. HCR provides that to a high degree. When Mr. Weibe insults or denigrates the work of a competitor, I have to disagree with facts and experience.

Anyway, this has gotten beyond the scope of the initial post. I hope we all can agree to disagree without things getting personal.

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:

When Mr. Weibe insults or denigrates the work of a competitor, I have to disagree with facts and experience.

Mr Wiebe did not insult or denigrate the work of anybody, he merely stated the obvious: to compare HCR to Clayton Nelson is like comparing, well, tomatoes to bananas!

HCR might build good stuff but a practical person would save a lot of cash by buying a stock Remington 700 with a HS Precision stock (VSSF). But they are not for me as life is too short to hunt with an ugly gun.

quote:

life is too short to hunt with an ugly gun.

Every guy that posts this should be required to post a photo of his wife.

quote:

Originally posted by dempsey:

quote:

life is too short to hunt with an ugly gun.

Every guy that posts this should be required to post a photo of his wife.

Yeah, I get tired of reading that all over the place too.

Butch
Suck up to him if you want.
There are no sacred cows in my world.
As far as asses go you can be on my list of asses too. I am glad no one has to ask the good old boy's cliq to post here. As far as my other posts that you do not like, you must be a liberal because most are in the political forum.

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
SR4957,
You're an ass! All a person has to do is check your posts on a lot of subjects. Doubt there are any smiths that will work with you.

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:
Butch
Suck up to him if you want.
There are no sacred cows in my world.
As far as asses go you can be on my list of asses too. I am glad no one has to ask the good old boy's cliq to post here. As far as my other posts that you do not like, you must be a liberal because most are in the political forum.

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
SR4957,
You're an ass! All a person has to do is check your posts on a lot of subjects. Doubt there are any smiths that will work with you.

HAHAHAHAHA!!
You're still an ass!

quote:

Originally posted by dempsey:

quote:

life is too short to hunt with an ugly gun.

Every guy that posts this should be required to post a photo of his wife.

That might be a bit much after the guy was posting pics of his wife in Walter's forum a couple years ago.

...

The following message was posted in Harry Pope's shop in Jersey City:

No Delivery Promised. Take Your Work When Well Done or Take it Elsewhere.

When?

If You Must Know When I Will Be Through With Your Work, The Answer Is Now. Take It Away. I Don't Want It.I Have No Way Of Knowing When I Will Be Through. I Work 17 Hrs. A Day. Daily Interruptions Average 4 1/2 Hours. Drak Weather Sets Me Back Even More. There Is But One Of Me. I Am Human. I Am Tired. I Refuse Longer To Be Worried By Promises That Circumstances Do Not Allow Me To Keep. You Are Dead A Long Time. It Is Time To Begin To Live.

For a number of years I dealt with West Coast gunsmith George Fullmer, located in Oakland, CA. George prided himself in being a gunsmith of the Harry Pope school. He was irascible, cantenkerous and once you got past his outer shell, a pleasure to deal with. I treated him with the utmost tact, which he deserved.

On the other end of the spectrum, as those who have followed my tribulations in this and other forii know, is the "gunsmith" who shall remain unnamed, to whom I entrusted my BRNO 602 .375 H&H to convert to .500 Jeffery. He accepted the job, informed me of the terms, which was a down payment and further payments as the work progressed. I made the down payment and further payments, but no rifle was forthcoming. Instead, my telephone calls and emails went unanswered over a period of years, not months. Finally, I learned that this "gunsmith" had moved his business to another state, along with his reamer rental business. The reamer business would at least answer phone calls, but the "gunsmith" was never available to speak with me personally. Finally, I prevailed on another gunsmith who lived in the area to pay the business a visit and confront my "gunsmith" with my concerns. This finally provoked a response, and I was told that my rifle was ready and would be sent to me on receipt of my final payment. The payment was made, and the rifle received. However, rather than opening the barrel channel, this "gunsmith" had turned the barrel to the same contour as the .375 H&H barrel, which meant that the resulting rifle was lighter than the .375! I threw up my hands and sent the whole mess to a gunsmith I knew and trusted and got, in short order, the rifle I had originally wanted. I chalked the previous transaction up to experience.

Right now, I am waiting for delivery of a BRNO 600 action I had sent to a well known barrel maker three years ago to have barreled in .425 Westley Richards. Two years ago I drove to California and stopped off in Arizona to check on progress and was told that my barrel was at the head of the list. Some months later, I called and was told that the work had not been performed because the barrels which had been turned out in that caliber were not satisfactory. Since then, I have been unable to communicate either by telephone or email, and I have no idea when I might see the barreled action. I have been told repeatedly that this barrel maker is a reputable person and that I will eventually get what I ordered. I certianly hope so, since I turned 75 earlier this month, and may not be around to enjoy it.

My patience with craftsmen who keep me informed of progress or lack of it is virtually unlimited. Those who avoid communication for whatever reason are what I object to. If I am told that something will be done at a certain time and that date rolls around and not only do I not receive the work, I get no communication or an answer to my communication, then my suspicions start to gnaw.

If this is thought to be unreasonable, let me cite one more example. A number of years ago, I took a Stevens 44 1/2 target rifle with me to the Ohio Gun Collectors Show in Columbus. I turned the rifle over to a craftsman who had earned a reputation reboring target rifle barrels, with instructions to rebore it to a larger caliber and turn it over to another craftsman to have it rechambered.

Several months later, I was asked by a friend if I had gotten the rifle back, to which I replied, "No." "Well," said he, "you need to check on it, because "X" has declared bankruptcy."

As it turned out, "X" had indeed declared bankruptcy, and because my rifle had been turned over to him face to face, there was no paper work to identify it as mine, and it had been auctioned off with the other contents of the shop. Naturally I was never compensated for it.

The Latin motto, Caveat emptor! "let the buyer beware!" applies in the world of gunsmithing as elsewhere!

Claytons workmanship COULD be top tier,his veracity rarely.He made 1 rifle for me,a pre64M70,22-250(in 1974 Gun Digest)that would shoot in the.2s with 70s quality bullets.As his issues and excuses exacerbated,i finally had to send someone to Enid to retrieve my "stuff".Pity.

Geez KimR,

Someone ask for the whereabouts of a particular gunsmith and you go full throttle throat bashing which begs the question: would you like some cheese with that whine?

Marley, I think Kim provided some relevant information. Your comments are just trite bullshit.

When a professional person of any trade makes a written contract with me, I am old fashioned enough to expect him/her to follow through per the contract.

As an example: I bought the OM 70 James Kobe had for sale here in November. He agreed to:

1. turn the threads down slightly (from Rem 700)and thread to fit said OM 70 action.

2. fit, chamber, and headspace the 450/375 RUM with the reamer and go gauge I provided.

3. to take care of any feeding issues necessary using his skills, and the three dummy rounds I provided.

4. to make a set of his beautiful DSB-style bases to fit the narrow Talley QD rings, like the ones he had in his shop. He had gotten the action with two extra rear holes drilled, which were off center. He also took the holes to 8-40 screw size. You all saw those pictures.

I had paid him for the action. He was kind enough to promise me 4-6 weeks total turn around time, and to request payment at the time of completion. I found that rare, but extremely gratifying. Less than 3 weeks later I got an Email letting me know all the promised work had been completed and the cost, to include shipping to my local FFL holder.

I sent him a PMO for that amount, and the barreled action exceeded my expectations. It arrived within a week of the PMO being mailed.

I was pleased to see that he beat his own time frame to complete the work.

I can understand a slight delay, but it is the gunsmith's responsibility to properly slot all work to be done, and stick closely to his promised schedule unless circumstances beyond his/her control arise.

If I EVER need gunsmithing work done that I am not comfortable having done locally, take a guess who I will be contacting?

If Clayton Nelson had completed the work contracted for, and shipped the rifle back to the customer, care to take a guess what he would be doing if he had not received his payment in five years...?

There are many horror stories floating around about gunsmiths reaching a certain quality of work, taking lots of orders, with deposits. They fall behind, and the bank account is empty because they spent the advances on living expenses. Next thing, they are out of business and skip town. Customers eat their deposits, and quite often it takes the ATF or FBI or local law enforcement to get the firearms back.

Customers do not stiff gunsmiths who have completed the work. That would be beyond stupid. The gunsmith has the firearm.

Rich

Marley,

how about loaning me $5,000 USD and I'll pay you back as soon as I can...

I prefer cash, if you don't mind.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Marley,

how about loaning me $5,000 USD and I'll pay you back as soon as I can...

I prefer cash, if you don't mind.

Be happy to loan you some money sharpshooter-after you sign a contract.

quote:

Originally posted by ForrestB:
Marley, I think Kim provided some relevant information. Your comments are just trite bullshit.

The request was for assistance in locating someone not a bitch session. Maybe there is a need for a dirty laundry thread but I believe it more professional not to air mine in public. As to your trite bullshit comment, perhaps your hot air would be best used on your laundry.

Thanks Forrest!marley7X57bviously English is NOT your primary language.The request to locate Clayton WAS a bitch session.Obviously you were not at the Houston Gun Shows in the 70s forward to hear the litanies of his custom rifle deals gone bad.I got my actions,blanks+++ back.That was 40+years ago-theres a whole new flock of sheep to be sheared.They should be warned!

quote:

Originally posted by KimR:
Thanks Forrest!marley7X57bviously English is NOT your primary language.The request to locate Clayton WAS a bitch session.

English not my strong point but I can read whilst you cannot. Try this one again - posted by the thread starter kda55:

"To be clear. This is not a Clayton Nelson bash."

I must be the lucky one here. I have had dealings with three of the four mentioned people, having never dealt with Clayton. Jim Kobe re-worked a rifle for me as well as "fixing" an issue I had with another smith that could not get a 700 recoil lug on straight. Both were extremely pleasant experiences. HCR has built or re-barreled 4 rifles for me with not a single complaint. First rate workmanship. My dealings with Duane are much smaller in that I loaned him some model 70 followers for his use in duplication since there were three types and I happened to have all three. Again, complete professionalism and gentlemanly conduct.

I guess there can be good experiences with people.

You guys that want to air your grievances need to take it somewhere else or start another thread. I was after contact info only as stated, closed and resolved.

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
A a show, 30 years later, one of the "stiffers" showed up and it became obvious he was senile...wanted me the refinish that rifle!

Ya should have taken the job!



And then...



... taken your time.

I would consider myself lucky indeed if I found a Wiebe rifle in a pawn shop. It would go home with me for sure.

marley7X57:you have proven my hypothesis about you.This"denial" is called apophasis!!

Caveat emptor

Unfortunately the business model for the custom gun market is based on the Ponzi scheme, nothing wrong with that, just the way the cookie crumbles, after all the man has to eat. All of them of course enter into the business with good intentions, unfortunately some fail. C'est la vie..... When that happens, regrettably it is the customer that goes down with the ship. That risk just goes with the territory.

The silver lining though is that despite the horror stories, most of the time what the customer loses is just time. Parts are usually returned- some easier than others.

It is what it is, but to pound ones chest and to say you are outraged at that business practice with all that bravado bs about what a POS that builder is......is frankly disingenuous. Internet balls mean nothing in the real world.

Y'all know what you are getting into when you commission a custom rifle...... don't wanna get burned do you homework. Wanna save a buck- go ahead good luck with that.

But just like the business model is what it is, so is the end result......you get what you pay for, whether you pay Mssrs Echols, Kobe, Wiebe et al $3-15K or some schmuck on the corner $50 with a dremel, you get what you pay for.

PS I've actually shot a Coues deer with a guy's Hill Country Rifle 300 WSM in ol' Mexico back in '05 or '06. A nice little gun. You got what you paid for.