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| One of Us |
I'm going on a black bear hunt next summer in canada. I will be using a marlin 45-70. I have some sierra 300 gr fnhp for reloading. What is you opinions on this bullet? Should I go up to the 405 instead? Please, those who have experience with this reply . I appreciate all other responses from bench and theoretical shooters but, I need actual feedback, please. Thanks. | ||
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| One of Us |
the 300 grain is more then enough. I would look at flat shooting rounds for your 45-70. Black bears are easy to kill if you hit them right. Doug McMann www.skinnercreekhunts.com ph# 250-476-1288 Fax # 250-476-1288 PO Box 27 Tatlayoko Lake, BC Canada V0L 1W0 email skinnercreek@telus.net | |||
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| one of us |
+1 | |||
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| one of us |
Guess it depends if you're hunting over bait or spot and stalk. If the latter I'd be looking for something a little more suited for longer range shooting. Grizz Indeed, no human being has yet lived under conditions which, considering the prevailing climates of the past, can be regarded as normal. John E Pfeiffer, The Emergence of Man Those who can't skin, can hold a leg. Abraham Lincoln Only one war at a time. Abe Again. | |||
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| One of Us |
I guess it" the 300 sierra. Thank you for your responses. | |||
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No sense in hunting black bears at long range. Where's the fun in that? Sounds like a great rifle for the job. Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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| One of Us |
I made up four groups of test rounds using a 300 grain sierra pro hunter bullet. the op two loads were using reloder 7 @ 49 grains ,the other was imr3031 @50 gr. the reloder 7 seem to pack more of a punch as it was going approx. 200 fps faster. I will be making up one more set of test rounds before this is set in concrete. | |||
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If you want the honest answer, but it doesn't do either of your choices any favours, it's both are inferior to even just a .30-06 on bears. I've been fortunate to see dozens of bears shot with many things and a well supported observation is the .45-70 class, while it kills everything it hits, kills slowly in comparison to a standard cartridge (.270, .308, .30-06 etc). A .30-06, or whatever your preference of a smokeless cartridge design, will outperform a .45-70 even on the biggest coastal bears in every capacity except penetration. The problem is it's not solely the penetration that drops your bear. Most of what a deep penetrating cartridge goes through is useless tissue behind the vitals, and yes that is damage but it's slow acting. That's why you can "eat right up to the hole" with a .45-70 class cartridge, it lacks in immediate disruption in the vitals. You need speed, and not crazy speed just 2400fps and up speeds. The good thing about your particular choice of .45-70 load is you're opting for a light for caliber, fairly lightly constructed bullet. That will let it do a bit more damage than usual to the important parts of the bear. When I have a client ask about a .45-70, .450 Marlin, .405, etc for coastal grizz / brown, I say fine but ask if they have a deer / elk rifle they can bring instead. It's not at all that the .45-70 class won't kill things, they absolutely do, I just don't like how they do it. Not a popular opinion on the Internet. Angus   | |||
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I thought a 30-30 or an -06 would be more than enough, however my outfitter highly recommended the 45-70. Since this is a paid hunt, I'll go with their recommendation. I do appreciate the input. | |||
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Odd recommendation, what type of black bear hunt, stand and bait, close shots? | |||
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Apparently Angus hasn't seen what a hard cast flat nosed 480 grain bullet at 1500 fps out of a 45-70 will do to a bear--or anything else it hits. | |||
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30-06, 270, 45-70...you name it...they are all more than adequate for black bears. There's really nothing to over think here. Put pretty well any bullet in the boiler room and they are dead. Black bears aren't any more difficult to kill than a whitetail. 45-70 has some cool factor but definitely not a minimum caliber and basically any bullet out of it will do the job. | |||
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Yup they all work well. I tried a Hornady 325 ftx this spring in a 45-70 and wasn't impressed. Nothing but fragments. Hornady 350 gr. Flatpoint is kind of a standard. I'm trying the cast 405 grain bullets right now. I do like the mid and big bores better than the 30 calibers. My favorite is the 350 rem mag. I think your 45-70 is an excellent choice if loaded hotter than the factory 300 grain stuff. Have fun. Roger ___________________________ I'm a trophy hunter - until something better comes along. *we band of 45-70ers* | |||
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Increase the bullet weight to 465 grains to 480 grains in a hard cast flat nosed design and the performance increase is dramatic. Look on youtube under black powder zebra kill and see a 480 grain flatnosed cast bullet at 1242 fps at work in the field at 161 yards. | |||
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| One of Us |
John, You might want to take a look at the Marlin owners forum regarding bullet choices. They tend to be pretty biased toward cast but doing a search will likely find the info you want with your choice of bullet. One other jacketed bullet you might want to think about is the 405 gr Woodleigh. Roger ___________________________ I'm a trophy hunter - until something better comes along. *we band of 45-70ers* | |||
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Ok I was going to sit this out but the snow storm has me holed up today. The last black bear I killed was with a Marlin 1895 GG using handloaded 405 ups. He weighed 485# gutted at the check station and was 40 yards from me when I shot him 2" behind front shoulder standing broadside. He went down and back up n the blink of an eye...long story short I hit him 4 more times and can cover all 5 shots with my hand without stretching my fingers out. He would have died from any of the shots...in time. With that said I have shot over a dozen bears of all sizes with my bow all 1 shot kills and they too died in time. My point is you can use almost anything within reason but unless you break both shoulders or spine or brain shoot them they are not going to be dead right there...but then again most game animals would not be either. | |||
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My choice is the 350 grain hornady round nose. I can push it to a velocity of 2120 in my marlin with a 22 inch barrel, This bullet is also recommended for the .458 WM so, it does not come apart at higher velocity. Other choices are a 400 grain Woodleigh or if youcan find them... 300 grain Nosler. As FAR AS THE HORNADY GUMMIE.... I have had them totally come apart on deer with a shoulder shot. They are for range work only in my book. With poor performance on deer, I think theywould do worse if yougot a black on bait over 350 pounds. | |||
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I'll be using the 300 gr sierra bullet with reloader 7 powder . the next question is this I'm bringing my 30-06 as a backup rifle utilizing 220 gr. bullet.with h350 powder( i think.... I made the rounds up last year for something else and can't remember the powder) Whats your thoughts on this bullet selection? | |||
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| one of us |
Dead bears. As long as you place those bullets in the proper location. I shot dozens of hogs and a few bears with my 06 scout rifle and 220gr RN from several makers at 2300fps. None of them ever complained about them not working. | |||
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ok folks, just got back from my bear hunt. I took one using the 45-70 with a 300 gr sierra pro hunter bullet using 49 grains of reloder 7.One shot behind the ear and he dropped like a bad habit. Thanks for all the input. | |||
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That'd do it, congratulations on your bear and share story and or pics when you get a shot. | |||
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| one of us |
Sierra makes a MK in 45-70? | |||
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| One of Us |
my bad looked at wrong box it was pro hunter | |||
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| one of us |
Happens to the best of us  Other wise the MK can never kill any thing crowd would be all over this.  Glad you had a good hunt. | |||
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Congratulations on getting a bear! I am also a fan of the .45-70. Glad to see the ProHunters worked. Was the shot where that was the only opening you had on him or did you pass on a behind the shoulder or shoulder shot? Did it damage the skull? "Let me start off with two words: Made in America" | |||
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Pics? Or it didn't happen.  | |||
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no I took the shot with no damage to the skull.It was a clear penetration of the neck, spine and blood vessels. | |||
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as soon as I figure out how to post this , I will. | |||
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John, I'm just back from a bear hunt in Manitoba. I killed a very average bear. I shot him with a Marlin .45/.70 using the Hornady 325 grain MONOFLEX bullet at 48 yards. It knocked him down, but he got up again. When the guide skinned him out he found the bullet in the skin, on the other side of the entrance hole. I was surprised, to say the least. The bullet is beautifully mushroomed, but I would have thought that it would have passed through a black bear at that range! My partner shot his bear with a .338 Win. Mag.. I now own a .338 Win Mag. | |||
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Ok, been there done that; the 300 grain common bullets are for deer and not bear; try a body shot and it will not penetrate all the way through. I have shot boars with them and they stop on the other side. Yes, killing them if you are in the boiler room. Same for the 325; these are for deer; open up fast and big. For bears and boar I use the speer 350 grain; it is made for higher velocities and will go completely through a bear or boar and kill them fast too. 338? too small for me. Yes it will kill them but just no cool factor. | |||
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Congratulations on your bear, average is a good result hopefully the hunt was a good experience to boot. Hunt big bears for a living and in my eyes that's perfect bullet performance, exits are wasted energy and lost terminal effect. The blood for tracking from an exit I can happily do without if it means there bear is down closer to where it was hit. | |||
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I have another theory; based in practice; knocking one down and then having get up and run is a bad thing; compounded if the bullet didn't exit and leave you a blood trail. (I have had it happen, but there was plenty of blood leading me to it) I want a bullet to blast through both sides of anything; this bullet catch thing is misguided thinking. IMO of course. | |||
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Ideally, for black bears grab a .270, .30-06, 7 Mag, .300 etc and have at them with a mid grain weight and not overly tough bullet. Even the biggest crumple to that much of the time in the radius of their shadow, we go big and heavy on bears and they're actually quite thin skinned creatures that just don't need it. Seen dozens upon dozens shot and the theme I'd have to begrudgingly side with is speed kills. Don't have to go Weatherby, just impacts in the over mid to high 2000s of fps. Heck two weeks ago guided a coastal grizzly / brown bear client over the salmon and his 7mm Rem Mag and think he had 140s, one round and again, never left the radius of his shadow. There's no guarantee of that I just see it more with faster rounds. | |||
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We kill black-bears with the .257 Weatherby, .375 H&H and just about everything (Or its clone) in between. Most with various magnums from 7mm to .30 cal. A fast opening bullet through the shoulder then on into the boiler-works and its over so fast that it gets boring. | |||
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Dogleg's seen enough bears die this opinion is well coloured in, including a grizz he hit with a .300 Ultra when we hunted together a few years ago. Not many years ago I actually used to disagree with Dogleg and push a heavy TSX in .375s methodology, but am fully on side with his views these days. None of this is arguing a .45-70 or heavy slower bullets don't kill things, they do and perfectly reliably, just not as often on the spot. Nothing is bang flop certified but if that's the desire, malleable bullets at higher speeds is the most practical solution. All this said want to be careful to not appear to be arguing with the OP or bear shooter, the .45-70 did its job and admirably it sounds. This is a happy story that has elicited opinions from me and allowed ballistic instrospection and I'm grateful for the forum to do so. It's my view as a bear guide that the industry is getting off track on what it pushes as bear stoppers and that polite debate on the internet is my path to fighting that. Another misguided adventure. | |||
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| One of Us |
My experience with .45-70s would seem to negate just about everything suggested here. I hunt bears every year (mostly bait hunting but not at short ranges -- most are at 65 -- that's close -- to over 125 yards), and 60% of that has been with a .45-70 of one persuasion or another. And NOTHING has dropped them faster than one shot with a .45-70. A flat point jacket (Remington 405) at over 2000 fps, without a CNS hit will flatten them!!! Also a heavy (465gr) hardcast at 1900 fps. I don't load wimpy loads! They are ALL making close to 4000 ft-lbs at the muzzle. I'd NEVER use the 325 Hornady. I've used a 500gr Hornady at 2185 fps, a 405 Rem at 2110 fps, a 350 TSX at 2750 (.458 WM), a 465 hardcast at 1900, etc, etc, etc. A 175gr at 3000 fps did about the same but NO BETTER! In .45-70 I've used several Marlins, a single-shot NEF and my favorite, a Ruger No.1, which is loaded with a 500 Speer this year at 1748 fps (not close to max). This thread is condescending toward the .45-70 in modern rifles with MODERN loads! BTW, the last three bears I've killed were all from my 9.3 x 62. One shot kills! But NONE dropped to the shot! All travelled at least 20 yards. Never had that happen from a .45-70. The one that did go 20 yards was hit by that 500gr Hornady Interloc at 40 yards leaving the muzzle of my Ruger No.1, .45-70 LT (long throat) at 2185 fps. The bullet never expanded. Bob www.bigbores.ca "Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT) | |||
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| one of us |
I don't equate a black bear with a deer. Sure, they die easy with a broadside shot, but their chest area has much more muscle mass than a whitetail. I have only shot five black bears, all with a .308. Four died on the spot or within a few yards. Once rand for a few hundred yards and I didn't find him until much later the next day and only after criss-crossing the area he entered. I knew he was dead because I heard the death bellow. That was a big bear that was facing me - I took a frontal shot because he was looking right at me, but I sure won't do that again. | |||
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| One of Us |
Which bullet? | |||
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