Just rceived a message from the Safari Press that an envronmental group-the Raincoast Conservation Society- has just bought a 20,000 square KM hunting concession for $1.35 million that runs from the northern tip of Vancouver Island to Princess Royal Island.

Been talking to some buddies about this. They said they have to harvest game or lose the rights.

Maybe just the tip of the iceberg ,think about this how about the fed+prov goverments getting together and giving our fine first nations 100 million $$$ to buy out all the guide-outfitting areas in BC one way to end all resdient hunting real quick

I have posted extensively here on the coming changes in G/O "rights" and foreign trophy hunting here in B.C. I have stated that Aboriginal interests will probably be bought off in respect of their racist "land claims" by the governments giving them G/O concessions, as was done with Lynn Rosses old area.

They well, undoubtedly, attempt to stop all resident sports hunting as they had it curtailed under the N.D.P. and they will succeed. The BCWF, etc., will then initiate legal action to save resident hunting and the courts will, IMO, find in favour of eliminating non-resident trophy hunting, allowing sharply curtailed resident hunting and letting the Indians kill whatever they want, whenever they want.

I honestly doubt that enough people in B.C. care about hunting to prevent this, however, given the attitudes I have encountered about foreign hunters and the huge demographic changes in our electorate, I suspect that this is about how it will play out. I think that foreign trophy hunting will be gone within 10 years and we residents may well be on a draw system for tightly limited quotas while the "natural conservationists" do as they please. Trudeau's "Just Society" in operation!

I expect that the money earned from hunting in the concessions will speak for itself. It is amazing how political contributions result in changing laws to suit the contributors.

I have also heard from BC that the ARFs are at risk of loosing the Beaver Bucks they spent on the area, as these areas have hunting quotas that can be used by other outfitters if the folks who "own" the quota don't satisfy the requirements.

ARFs have also applied for licenses in other jurisdictions for animals they don't intend to hunt, which eventually results in the government issuing *more* licenses.

jim

That would be true, except for the Indians, who are the "wild card" and this whole situation is very complex, fluid and susceptible to political influences in the media, as well as by behind-the-scenes "donations".

The roughly 90,000 resident hunters in B.C. are not well organized and the mass media is very opposed to foreign trophy hunting; the amounts returned to government from this are minimal, so, I don't think that $$$$ is very important in this situation.

It's simple, social change in action and due to immigration patterns, academic "environmentalism" and urbanization. Most people in B.C., (pop. 4,000,000) don't hunt and don't care if residents can hunt. So, I think that a serious drop in our resident opportunities will happen and that will, inevitably, eliminate foreign hunting.

I think that the commercial fishery is going to be given to the Indians, as well, the good days are long gone here in "Super Natural B.C.".

I think that is absolutely great. Seeing them burn up over a million Greeny dollars does my heart good. Then when they run out of money the hunting there is going to be out of sight and I'm going to ready.

They are in league with several so called "First Nations" and have VERY serious international financing that is totally anti-hunting; they are NOT going to run out of money. As soon as the 2010 Olympics are finished, the N.D.P. will form a government here in B.C. and they WILL totally support the ecomaniacs and the Indians; the current leader is married to an Indian and has distanced the N.D.P. from the blue-collar trade unions which tend to support hunting.

I have been involved in this since 1960 and I know many of the major players personally, very well. This is not about protecting the Grizzlies, etc., it is part of a much larger and far more sinister agenda....and they're winning.

Hunting is already fantastic in that area, but, there is NO way any other G/O can use any of the quota now assigned to Raincoast and the Indians, not no how, not no way, not in today's B.C.

Further to this situation, it has been made public that the wildlife bureaucrats in Victoria, B.C. are signing a regulation that will reserve over 50% of the Thinhorn Sheep, Stone's and Dall's, in northern B.C. for the exclusive use of Guide/Outfitters, many of whom are foreigners and the animals will be shot by foreigners. When this hits the major media outlets, both resident hunters and the "antis" are going to go berserk and the shit will fly.

It is going to be a battle royal and we residents who are currently harvesting about 30%, with 70% going to foreigners, of the sheep shot in these areas are just now getting ready to fight. Hunting in B.C. will change enormously, very soon, and it ain't just the "greenies" that have brought this about.

quote:

KUTENAY - "...they are NOT going to run out of money."

Kutenay is 100% correct. The "greenies" have access to absolutely unlimited amounts of "long green," donated to their organizations by millionaires, billionaires, and just ordinary ignorant bliss ninnies from all over the world.

They can outspend any hunting, or gun Rights group around... PLUS, 99% of the time, they have the leftist mainstream media on their side.

FWIW. L.W.

They have the likes of the Heinz Corp behind them so it is true, they will not run out of money. The best we can hope for is that they will all die of the various diseases that vegans and rump rangers get! derf

There may be a way to fight this and win, but, it is going to take a signifigant change in the attitudes of many B.C. resident hunters. After posting on some B.C. forums, I find that the poorly educated, self-styled "experts" who are partially employed by G/Os and thus try to discredit anyone who advocates for residents rights seem to be "in charge" of the situation.

I can think of a number of strategies that may well work to preserve resident hunting in B.C., but, until the redneck slob element is out of the picture and resident hunters band together, we are going to lose. I am one of the people who founded a couple of the larger "green" groups in B.C., in the 1960s and I know how to get changes in government policy enacted, but, this won't happen unless B.C. hunters get together....and this ain't happening.

IF, we got "non-resident trophy hunting" banned for a start, in order to prevent a de facto "club" of rich foreigners controlling access to and quotas for our wild sheep, then we might be able to present a successful front to the government and "out-lobby" the ecomaniacs and the Indians. But, fugit, I will be 60 by next season, there is enough left for me, so, why should I care????

Hello;
I gtta take issue with this last post. It's the old story of sacrificing the weakest to save the stronger. Sooner or later, you will be the weakest and your turn will come. United we stand, divided we fall, as they say.
Grizz

quote:

IF, we got "non-resident trophy hunting" banned for a start, in order to prevent a de facto "club" of rich foreigners controlling access to and quotas for our wild sheep, then we might be able to present a successful front to the government and "out-lobby" the ecomaniacs and the Indians. But, fugit, I will be 60 by next season, there is enough left for me, so, why should I care????

Kutes

The major fallacy to this statement is that the G&Os have the monetary resources and the ability to raise much more. They also already have a strong voice in Victoria as demonstrated by your post on the thin horn sheep quotas.

I really don't care anynore about the Outfitters as I plan to be a resident in a year or two but this is a big chance for the Res. hunters to organize a unified front and join with the GOABC to form a very strong and monetarily secure force.

The BC Hunters Assoc. will never be able to raise the money required as they only have a dues base and nothing of value to sell to the wealthy people that will generate funding. They also don't have near enough of the hunting population even on board for the fight.

It will take a rethinking of priorities and a reorganization of both sides positions and prejudices but one strong group is always better than one weak one.

"If we don't hang together we will surely all hang seperately."

The Patriot/Traitor
Benjamin Franklin

Once upon a time, there were a VERY few people, who believed that large wilderness parks should exist in various parts of B.C. They were few in number, had no money and were reviled by the enormously wealthy international mega-corporations that controlled B.C.'s forests, the powerful and well-financed and well-led trade unions and the "rah-rah boys" of the Junior Chambers of Commerce, who voted for the vile Socreds......it was the middle '60s.

Within less than a quarter century, the wilderness parks were in place, the mega-corporations were advocating preservation of "old-growth" and marketing ecologically acceptable wood products while the once powerful I.W.A. does not even exist anymore.

I was one of the originators of this process and I and my various friends succeeded then, in a battle that was exponentially more difficult than this one will be; we will win this one, too. It ain't about money, Mick, it's about public perception, votes and the mass media....and the GOABC just doesn't have the same level of skill dealing with the media that many conservationists do, all their foreign bucks notwithstanding.

As to fallacy, nope, the GOABC has demonstrated for some years now that the B.C.W.F. and other resident hunters do not matter a fiddler's fuck to them, so, they will not join with us, except to try to screw us some more. Anyway, it is time that B.C. residents and other Canadians took precedence in our country.

I say 90% of B.C. game for residents, 10% for non-resident Canucks who can hunt without guides if they get a draw and NO game for G/Os or foreigners. If G/Os want to offer hunts to Canadians from other provinces, fine, but, we have been fucked over for too long and that is that!

Do they have the "outfitter hunting rights" or did they buy the land out right?
If they bought an outfitters area and chose not to hunt it can't people still go in there and hunt on their own?

quote:

IF, we got "non-resident trophy hunting" banned for a start, in order to prevent a de facto "club" of rich foreigners controlling access to and quotas for our wild sheep, then we might be able to present a successful front to the government and "out-lobby" the ecomaniacs and the Indians. But, fugit, I will be 60 by next season, there is enough left for me, so, why should I care????

I have to take issue with the above statement, as it seems to play directly into the hands of HSUS and PETA. Be careful that you don't get what you wish for. Us "rich foreigners" love your province and most of your people(there are exceptions), and are willing to spend some of our hard earned savings to come there to "trophy hunt." We finance a whole lot of the fight with the tree hugger groups by doing this. It is obvious you hate GOABC, but they have been on the front lines in this fight, and are quite upset that one of their members, L. Ellis, chose to sell his guiding operation to a green weenie group. You should direct your anger and angst toward the groups who seek not just to ban "trophy hunting by rich foreigners," but to ban all hunting. They focus on subsistance hunting right now being acceptable to them in order to get the natives on their side, but give them time. It is the old divide and conquer strategy.
Make no mistake. The antis are well financed. If we divide ourselves into smaller groups, this makes their job easier, Kutenay. I am surprised that you don't seem to grasp this in your provincial hatred. Perhaps you are not what you seem, but are a tool of the antis posting here in order to divide us hunters. You can join those who would ban bear hunting and that will achieve your goal, apparently.

I have personally hunted in your province a number of times, and felt welcome wherever I went. You would be welcome in the USA. Both our countries, however, have a small but vocal minority who seek to preserve some aspect of their life for themselves in some selfish manner. Us hunters need to discount what they say, just as I am discounting your opinion as to us "rich foreigners." By the way. I am by no means rich. I have priorities, one of which is to go hunting. I pay dearly for the privilege.

So, I am ...selfish... and... a tool for,... etc., I am also...provincial... Well, I think that you will find that the majority of B.C. resident hunters agree with my position, it is OUR wildlife.

You do not understand the situation here, the G.O.A.B.C. represents G/Os, many of whom live in the U.S.A. when they are not "working" in B.C. and others are backed/owned by foreigners. They have been lobbying for severe restrictions on resident hunting and access for quite some time and now have succeeded in getting a "lion's share" of the quotas, in some areas, for rare animals such as Stone's Sheep.

What this means is that foreigners CONTROL both access to and allocation of B.C.'s best hunting in order to sell it to other foreigners, who are, by average B.C. standards, "rich" as a Stone's Sheep hunt goes for close to $30,000 USD. The lesser game such as Mule Deer are also under attack by this organization, who just this past autumn attempted to have the annual limit for MD in Region 5 reduced in order to have more "trophy bucks" to sell to foreigners....this is part of a plan to have ALL residents hunt with G/Os only, no "free" resident hunting as has always been the case.

Do you think that we British Columbians are stupid or that we cannot/do not read the glossy hunting magazines? We know that the "Grand Slam" is a big deal to many foreign "trophy hunters" and that all too many foreigners regard B.C.'s game as an international resource which should be available to the higgest bidder, usually some wealthy Yank. Well, it is OUR wildlife and OUR decision as to who will or will NOT hunt here and that is the way it is.

The patronizing, sometimes insulting attitude displayed by a number of foreign hunters on this international forum simply serves to illustrate the problem and my point. Foreign "trophy hunting" enriches the members of the G.O.A.B.C. and oftimes the profits go south to "investors"; this is going to end, one way or another. The domestic demand for Stone's Sheep and the desires of other Canadians to hunt in B.C. for a reasonable fee are vastly more important than what foreigners want, again, this is our country, our wilderness and our wildlife.

The PETA, etc. issue is a separate situation, they are a foreign based group of scumbags and we need to outlaw their presence in Canada. We have already experienced an "invasion" of draft dodgers and other lefty whhackjobs from down south, we don't need some Hollywood fag/doper/bimbo telling us about our lifestyle AND we won't tolerate it, period.

Anyway, Leonard Ellis made about the only sound business decision he could under the circumstances and I don't blame him. The times are changing and very few British Columbians now support non-resident alien hunting and even sports fishing is on the block. The Aboriginal peoples will be given much of this resource to "buy off" their "land claims" and we residents need the rest for our own use. If, that seems "greedy" to some foreigners, I doubt that most B.C. people care, I don't.

I am truly sorry to see that you feel that way, Kutenay. Perhaps someday you will see that what you are advocating is not in the best interests of all of us hunters, but sadly by then, it may be too late.

The best interests of B.C. and Canada are what motivate me, not the desires of foreigners from anywhere. This situation has been building here for about two decades, I have actually come to oppose foreign hunting in B.C. only within the past two years.

Why should we allow foreigners to control our hunting, influence our governments and systematically eliminate our birthrights. I was born here, this is the 136th year my family has been in B.C. and I have been active in a variety of environmental conservation activities since I was 14 years old.

The problems here are and have been caused by the larger G/Os, who use spotter planes, radios and limited resident access to "harvest" Stone's Sheep while attempting to block residents from hunting them. I should support this?????

You seem to take this as some sort of personal affront which it is not. I have traced my family name back to before 1650 in Pennsylvania and I have an unusual Swabian surname. If, I came to PA and began activities that limited your hunting opportunities so I could make a profit, how would you feel???

Again, what I am posting here is pretty much typical of the attitudes held by most B.C.'ers at present. If, a provincial referendum were held today concerning non-resident alien trophy hunting, I would wager that more than 80% of residents would vote to ban it, that's just the way it is.

Again, I am sorry that you feel the way you do, but will grant that you believe you have some justification for it. What you don't seem to realize is that most residents of BC, if given a vote on it, would probably vote to outlaw all sport hunting. Nibble by nibble, they are winning, and you do seem to be on their side.
Less than ten percent of us in the USA are still hunters, and our numbers get smaller as time goes by. I can forsee a time when sport hunting will be banned in the USA. Canada will not be far behind.
A number of years ago, a friend who favors confiscation of all guns told me that they had a good start on gun control in Canada, and "Canada is a nation of hunters." sorry to say that is not true. 90 percent of your population lives in cities fifty miles or less from the US border, and soon, your percentage of the population that hunts will be smaller than ours, of course excepting the native populations who have the right to "subsistance" hunting.
Enjoy your campaign to eliminate all foreign hunters from your province. Just be very careful what you wish for, as you just might get more than you want. I will continue to support those organizations that support my right to hunt, wherever and whenever. Once again, I am truly sorry you feel the way you do, but I can't change that. I just hope you fail in what you want to achieve. If that is selfish of me, so be it.

That post demonstrates EXACTLY what the problem here is; you actually think that you understand B.C., our politics and our society better than I do. This is characteristic of all too many Americans and it is a large part of why more and more B.C. residents are becoming totally opposed to foreign hunting here. As it happens, you are wrong, most B.C. residents would NOT vote to abolish resident sports hunting and this has been demonstrated in political terms here, frequently and recently.

As to ...right to hunt, wherever and whenever..., surely you see that Canada is a sovereign nation and B.C. is a part thereof; you DO NOT have any "rights" here, hunting or otherwise. The organizations that you refer to have absolutely NO status here and are often considered to be unwelcome in the conservation debate.

Now, if you and other Americans want to be involved in this situation, I strongly suggest that you request membership in the B.C. Wildlife Federation and THEN get involved in preserving non-Aboriginal hunting here in B.C. This type of personal involvement as ordinary hunters would go a long way toward changing the attitude of most B.C. hunters concerning "rich Yanks". Whether this attitude is justified or not is not the point; as I said, this is about public perception, mass media involvement and facile politicians who go where the votes are.

This forum has given me the opportunity to judge the attitudes of many foreign hunters for myself, which I wanted to do before getting deeply involved in this aspect of B.C. enviro-politics. What I have found is that most of the non-Canadian posters on this issue seem to think that they have the "right" to hunt here if they can pay for it and damned few of them address our concerns about our access to our own game.

This indicates, to me, that these hunters are primarily concerned with keeping B.C. as a hunting playground for those foreigners who can afford it, regardless of the negative impact on we residents. So, I see no good reason to support any foreign hunting here.

It is not just my campaign as thousands of B.C. residents feel exactly as I do; I get around the entire province regularly and talk to people about this issue; most are not in favour of n-r-a hunting and that is growing. Given the demographic changes here, it's inevitable.

I have witnessed or heard of several events where guide/outfitters have deliberately 'sabotaged' resident hunters. Examples include blocking airstrips in the upper Muskwa in BC, verbally abusing resident hunters in the drainages of the East Kootenays, disturbing wildlife near resident camps in Saskatchewan, and paying off landowners to exclude residents in Alberta. I detest these actions yet believe that they are not common to all G/O's. I've dealt with many G/O's that have been very ethical and law abiding people who wish to make a living guiding and outfitting.

As for access to resources by residents and non-residents, I think there are some real benefits to having regulated non-resident hunting opportunities. Economic benefits are not one of them. One, I think that reciprocal hunting opportunities for international hunters has value for the image and historical significance of hunting in general. Knowing that I can hunt internationally and can reciprocate by having non-residents come to my country and province is both comforting and non-limiting to me as a hunter. Secondly, having non-residents come here may profile our provinces and country as a place rich in game and hospitality, inspiring secondary benefits such as general tourism. I've met a few hunters who said they would be back with there families after travelling through some beautiful landscapes in BC. And third, I think that connectivity, to borrow a biological term, with other hunters internationally provides more unity, both politically and diplomatically, which may be used to defend our sport.

The downside, well, Kootenay has illustrated those points quite well and there's no need for me to repeat them. However, I think there's real opportunity to adequately manage and enforce the resident and non-resident access to our natural resources in ways which will limit our conflicts. I know that sound science can provide game quotas for residents and non-residents alike, and season dates/zonation can limit conflicts for access. The reality though, is that political will does not always use science to make decisions. The aboriginal harvest, international pressures, local demands by small business and other stakeholders all play a part in that process, and not always to the benefit of a minority of residents who hunt. I hope to have access, as a resident, to hunting in my own province. I hope I can share access with non-residents without conflicts. Is it a reality? I don't know. Can we work towards a solution? Yes. I care. I may not be as old, grizzled or experienced as Koots, but I still want to do something about it.

That is a really fine post, Matt and you make your points in a manner that everyone here can benefit from, IMO.

This is why I would like to see hunters from other nations join the B.C.W.F. as I do not entirely trust some of the larger "trophy" oriented, international hunting organizations; they appear to be dominated by the wealthy types who consider B.C. their fiefdom. I think that an American who is an ordinary bloke and wants to hunt in B.C. would find that B.C.W.F. membership is very worthwhile.

There is room for lots of opinions on this issue and for vast improvement in our environmental management in general, BUT, B.C. MUST be owned and operated by B.C. people!

I have always wanted to hunt moose in BC. I'd love to do one of those combo hunts for moose & elk in the Prophet Muskwa, but at $12K for the trip it's too rich for me. I'm not a rich American and I don't consider myself a trophy hunter. Yes, I would like to hunt in BC, but it shouldn't be at the expense of the local residents rights & access. I'm just beginning to educate myself on the issue so bear with me. It's quite possible that what the native indigenous "First Nations" (Indians) are doing with hunting in BC is not unlike what they're doing with casinos in the U.S. They're sovereign nations so they build hugely profitable casinos and then pump money into political action committees and lobby politicians to ban non-tribal casinos, thereby ensuring a captive market unless someone wants to travel to Nevada. Is it possible that they could eventually they lock up all the concessions under their First nation status and control access by residents, let their tribe members kill at will all year long and control the lucrative "foreign" hunting trade?
I realize that this is hypothetical, but it doesn't seem outside the realm of possibility with a historically guilt ridden liberal government and a majority of non-hunting population.

My input relates to what I THINK is happening in the US and it isn't rocket science to see that what has happened in the US will be what happens in BC and elsewhere because after all it is simply all about $$$$$$.

Take New Mexico for instance. Years ago our Natives were forced to live on several "reservations" In NM and elsewhere. They were "given" the land that was, at the time, consider wasteland by many. Well, today the "wasteland" in NM is receiving up to $15,000 per elk plus a requirement to hire a Native guide. Yes, there are waiting lists for these hunts. Additionally, the Natives, as noted in the post above were given the sole right to build casinos by a government that was feeling bad about putting the Natives on these reservations. More or less a payback for indisgressions done over a hundred years ago. Certainly the Natives are allowed to hunt the land for free to some extent while charging others the trespass fee. On the opther hand NM has a large percentage of its wilderness land publically held by various government agencies who allow anyone to enter a state run draw for a fee. Residents/Natives receive a much larger percentage of the draw rights than do non-residents and pay a lesser fee as well. Then there is the private land owners that have a choice of entering the state draw or selling their alloted permits to outfitters or individuals from anywhere in the world for a trespass fee. Perhaps rather lengthy but it seems to work in NM and my guess is that this type system would work for BC but again it certainly won't work if the locals (Natives/residents) want it all for themselves - which IMHO is a non-starter.
To my knowledge all US states have some form of the system briefly outlined above and yes there will always be those whose "ox is the one being gored". Life is just not "fair"!
I am not a NM resident and certainly no expert on their system but I think this is close. NM also has certain other types of hunts open only to NM residents.

I don't think that you really understand what is happening here in terms of Aboriginal demands, increased resident demand for the rare species and also the most extreme anti-Americanism I have ever seen, (which I do not agree with, btw.) The $$$$$ argument is not as relevant here because the actual financial benefits to residents, other than the few conected with the G/O industry are miniscule and so are the tax returns to the B.C. Government.

This means that there really is no real motivation for resident hunters/non-hunters to support non-resident hunting and there are "reasons" such as the softwood lumber issue which impacts the rural "hunting" parts of B.C. very severely why most people will tend to support an end to it. Far from being ...a non-starter..., this is very likely to happen.

In just one area of B.C., the non-resident harvest of Sheep, for example, exceeded the resident harvest in almost every year since 1976. Given that a fair amount of Sheep hunting is by Limited Entry draws for residents AND the G/Os, especially the foreign-backed ones ain't too popular with resident hunters, most of us see no reason why we should be prevented from harvesting our own Sheep so that G/Os and foreign hunters can do so.

This is a "classic" situation for media manipulation which is how pressure groups tend to advance various issues here in B.C./Canada. I doubt that the B.C.W.F. would do this, but, the eco-warriours will as soon as they get wind of the imbalance in the resident/G-O/non-resident harvest. There are "rumbles" about this on various Canadian hunting forums at present.

I think that this is the way of the future and that hunting in B.C. will be sharply curtailed for we residents as well. We have seen evidence of this in the recent Grizzly hunting ban and the political party that did that is far more "environmental" now than it was then....and they will form another government in due course.

Indians are certainly part of the problem, but, a changing society here and increasing Canadian nationalism are also part of it. I would favour a change that did not eliminate all non-resident hunting, as long as residents and other Canadians received all of the opportunities that they wanted, but, I suspect that my relatively moderate views are not typical of those of the majority of people in B.C. today.

I have yet to take any direct action on this as I want to explore the situation here where the opinions of many sincere people can help me to decide what is really best for B.C. I do not wish to instigate a media campaign concerning this until I can make a more informed decision and consider every aspect of it. BUT, things are going to change here and the G/Os are NOT going to be allowed to run the show!

Admittedly, my "boots are not on the ground" in YOUR fight nor should they be as I will not vote and I will not be on the front lines in the battle. However, I have found it helpful in the past to understand how others relate and cope with situations very similar to yours. Is it really a question of anti-Americanism or is it more the classic fight of haves vs havenots? Certainly there will be some compromise and when the battle begins it is always good to have all the facts and the ability through knowledge of others to have a fall back position that you can accept through the compromise that is certain to come.

Are you truly prevented from harvesting your own sheep or prevented from solely harvesting all of your sheep to the exclusion of all others? I believe this is where the battle will be and we have found in our States that excluding ANYONE is a non-starter. Perhaps not correct but certainly "politically correct" in the US.

As to the B.C or any other province resident receiving monetary benefit from the dollars spent by foreign hunters, I know from my upcoming trip to N.W.T. there are plenty of hands in my pocket and it is for certain not all the G/O.

Certainly do wish you the best when the battle really begins as I know it is a very personal thing to you. Remember COMPROMISE to your strength not to a weakness. If your number of 2% of BC'ers are hunters is correct, my friend, make friends quickly.

I think that, in this thread and others on this issue over the past year or so, I have given some precise details as to why I think that non-resident alien hunting is going to be history in B.C. fairly soon. It is, as I've said, both a complex and an evolving situation and it is also difficult to obtain the kinds of data one would want to base a political opinion on. Other posters have also commented as to some of the problems.

The situation is that, in ANY management area where both resident L.E.H. AND G/O "quotas" are in effect, ANY Sheep in the G/O's quota is one that a resident cannot shoot. Also, the powerful and often foreign financed G.O.A.B.C. has DEMANDED that any game not being currently harvested be given to them as expanded quotas, permanently AND that resident hunters being legally forced to hire guides....their members, of course.

So, yes, at present, non-resident alien hunting is definitely taking away game from resident hunters and that MUST STOP! Also, the demand for rare "ego" animals by wealthy foreign trophy hunters, primarily Americans, has changed the guiding industry into a big business and this has inflated the prices so that most other Canadians cannot afford to hunt Stone's Sheep, for example. These are OUR animals, they do not belong to some illusory "international brotherhood of hunters" and I want CANADIANS to be able to hunt them, not foreigners.

The best thing that could happen to hunting in B.C., right now, would be to ban all foreign hunting, put the Indians on the same regulated footing as everyone else and enforce this and share our game animals with our fellow Canadians. This would engender better wildlife management and also prevent the $$$$$ factor from eliminating opportunities for residents as it is now doing.

If, the foreign trophy hunters cannot come here, then the GOABC will not have a reason to lobby the government for resident restrictions AND the demand for high-priced hunts will end, thus, ordinary Canucks can afford them. To me, this is a win-win situation and I support such a change and expect that it will happen fairly soon.

I do not see this as a "have-have not" situation, it is more about Canadians finally awakening to what has gone on in our country for far too long; the exploitation of our natural resources to benefit foreigners while not benefiting us to any real degree. Most naturalized Canadian citizens during the past 35+ years come from countries that are either neutral to or antagonistic to the U.S.A. and this is not going to change soon; it gives a "new" flavour to Canadian nationalism....and it's NOT jealousy.

As to anti-Americanism, it's here and growing, but, it is only one factor in this situation and not the major one. However, Canada and the U.S.A. are growing apart and I expect that to continue, so, while I think that American tourists will continue to find this a friendly place, American trophy hunters probably won't. The best way to influence this is for American hunters to join the B.C.W.F. in large numbers and then we might be able to seriously improve things here for all hunters....the potential is here.

I do not think that the N.W.T. or the Yukon is likely to severely restrict non-res. hunting in the near future, but, I am not familiar enough with this situation to really say. This is, again, a VERY complex situation and I am doing more investigation before I get further involved. I would say, though, that I would hunt here a.s.a.p. if I were a non-Canuck and for a variety of very sound reasons.

Momma taught me to say nothing if I had nothing good to say.

For some time now ,I have followed the "canadien voice" in particular Kutenays eloquent theories of Canada for Candiens or if that is to exclusive b.C. for its residents.

I dont want any arguments,just state my opinion.

I am really sorry to see this kind of attitude,it is frankly disgusting to me.Of course that only shows my total ignorance of "real Canadien" attitudes ?

I have many canadien friends here,that came from canada to the states,usually because they figured to have a better life.

Canada and the US have - from a distance - the same history. European settlers conquering new lands, and apart from some pecularities ,share the same language and therefore culture.

I never considered go into a "foreign" country when "I crosseed the border" , no more than going from NJ to Pen ,so to speak.

Well things have changed- some. Still I believe the majority still might feel that way,particularily in the WEST.

The western US or western Canada , probably have more in common than western US or canadien with their respective eastern brothers.

Its a shame to divide that friendship.


Its also easy to see how it can happen.

Protectionism,economical exclusion is a strong card.

The border seems an easy explanation for mistrust,when in fact is has nothing to do with it.It gets used,like religion, to further someones personal economical goal.


Kutenay - for good personal reasons - believes the solution is to build a wall around B.C. and maybe Canada, to preserve his personal cherished lifestyle from "rich foreign interest"

That is not hard to see, its also probably easy to sell. Blame it on an outsider.

You really dont have to go to B.C. to see ths attitude.
Listen to residents of Wyoming as an example.

The only problems with this protectionism is that it paddles the world backward.

There is no question that opening up the world,making borders nothing but llines on maps, causes hardships in the short run for some.

Basically because all of a sudden you have to compete, rather than being protected by distance or laws.

In the final analysis though,we are people,not citizens of anyone country.
With all respect,Kutenay excepted

People who earn a living where ever they chose and then want to spend that money whereevr they chose.

The above certianly pegs rich against poor ,so to speak, when the resources are limited.

Thats all.Protectionism - in the long run - is medieval and wrong.
I say that as long ,as I still have a job that is not switchred to "cheap foreign labor"
At that time it gets personal and my high and kind benevolent outlook changes,but doest make it right.

...Protectionism, is medieval and wrong...Oh, really? Of course it is, when it impacts on what Americans want, eh?

BUT, when "Dubya' breaks his word on NAFTA, concerning softwood lumber, agricultural products and his asshole ambassador, Wilkins, has the fucking gall to lecture the Prime Minister of Canada in a typically arrogant American fashion, why thats just ...people..., yeah sure.

Your screed not only demonstrates an appalling ignorance of history, Canadian culture and wildlife management; you actually admit that IF your job were lost to foreign workers, you would change your attitude concerning this issue. So, an American can decide that foreign influences and actions are not acceptable in the U.S.A., but, a mere ...Canadien... dare not advocate ANY restrictions on foreign exploitation of OUR resources.....how very Amurican.

The FACTS are that the Stone's Sheep herd in northeastern B.C. has declined in numbers from about 8000 head to about 5000 head within the past few years. The annual "harvest" of these animals over the past 20 years has been about 2-1, in favour of NON-RESIDENT ALIEN HUNTERS, primarily Americans, over residents and the foreign hunters want MORE?????

Of course, we lowly ...Canadiens... should not presume to think that we have ANY right to decide this or any issue in our own country as Amuricans have some god-given right to buy anything in the world that they want, whether the actual owners want to sell, or not. This ...disgusting... attitude is EXACTLY why an increasing number of people here are against foreign hunters.

"Amuricans" as you say, do not have a "God Given" right to buy anything they want, including Stone Sheep, if the owners do not want to sell. However, "Amuricans" and anybody else in the entire world, including Canadians,have a right to make an offer to buy, and to increase their offer as much as they so desire until market forces cause a manifestation of mutal assent that results in a contract.

I suspect that is the situation with not only B.C. Sheep, but Alberta Sheep, Yukon Sheep, N.W.T. Sheep, Alaska Sheep, Montana Sheep, Wyoming Sheep, Mexican Sheep ( a Desert Bighorn sheep hunt in Mexico now goes for $50,000, and for that matter sheep from Around the world.)

The prosperity of the last few decades has created numbers of men and women who have vast quantitities of disposable income and the time to use that income. To them it matters not if the hunt is $10,000 or $20,000 or $50,000, or for that matter $100,000. What matters is getting value for their money, and their perception of value is vastly different from that of the common person who has a wage paying job.

Once again, this isn't a B.C. problem. It isn't a Canadian Problem. It isn't a USA problem. Rather, it is a Conservation VS. Big Dollar problem, and it is only going to get worse in the years to come. Its really not any different than what goes on anyplace in the world with regard to the land and natural resources. Heck, there are beautiful lakes where I live. My opinion is that those lakes should be left for all to enjoy. But that isn't how it works. INstead, the highest bidders are allowed to purchase the land around the lakes and build their multimillion dollar houses and basically ruin everything. Money Talks.

For sure, the USA, who of course harbors many of the Wealthy People that make offers on these sheep, Could do a lot more to help the problem.
States could attempt to increase their sheep herds, thereby lessening the pressure on other countries sheep herds. And what that requires is that each state have an amendment to their State Consitution that requires that all money received from the sale of licenses and fees does not go into the genreal fund, but rather goes to a special fund used strictly for the state Wildlife or Conservation Department. Otherwise the money goes into the general fund and wildlife gets the short end of the stick.

I think a true sportsman would say that the sheep come first regardless of where they walk.

I am probably not, by your definition, a ...true sportsman..., I am a committed, lifelong, serious conservationist and a former worker in resource management. My concern is for the B.C./Canadian environment FIRST and then the rights of B.C/Canadian people in respect of OUR resources in OUR country.

My personal involvement in Sheep conservation started in 1964, due to the large die-off of "Ovis Canadensis" in the Kootenays; this was due to habitat degradation and other limiting factors at the time, INCLUDING foreign over-hunting, almost entirely by American trophy hunters. This was the opinion given to me by people in the B.C. Wildlife Branch, whom I knew personally. So, don't lecture me about ... the Sheep come first..., unless you have been involved in this as long as I have.

As to the attitude concerning the "offer" of money for whatever, once again, you simply do not understand Canadian attitudes concerning wildlife, water, fish and a number of other issues. We do NOT want to sell our fresh water or "commodify" our wildlife and any such "offers" can be made illegal here with a simple Cabinet Order at the pleasure of the Lieutenant-Governor and subsequently enacted into legislation banning ALL foreign hunting.

This will both eliminate the $$$$$ situation as I have repeatedly explained and the elimination of 2/3 of the current "harvest" levels will assist with the recovery of the herds to historic levels while still allowing resident hunting. Once this is done, I am in favour of restrictions that will allow other Canadians to hunt in B.C. without guides, if they so choose.

If, there are any Sheep available after this, then I would favour Australian, New Zealand, British and American hunters with Guide/Outfitters who are Canadian citizens with B.C. primary residence as exemplified by their Hunter Number cards. There would be ZERO foreign investment, influence or involvement and ALL foreign hunters would have to draw for their animals and THEN hire the G/Os.

This would return hunting here to a sport and eliminate the radios, spotter planes, luxury lodges in wilderness reserves and general bullshit that is going on now. If some rich s.o.b from somewhere else doesn't like it, tough shit, the monies returned to the B.C. people from the current non-resident hunting are miniscule and we can get along fine without them.

As to ...Amuricans....maybe check how "Sheephunter" chose to spell Canadians and references to "real Canadians"...if, it's sauce for...........

I don't care if you refer to me as "Amurican". That reflects on you, not me.

You keep saying "We". You do not speak for all Canadians. That has been shown on this website on a few occasions.

A person can have as much concern for wild sheep whether they have been working with them for years or not. And nobody was lecturing anthing. The fact is, either you put the sheep first or you don't, meaning that nobody hunts them if they are in trouble.

Once again, you keep saying you will eliminate all foreing hunting regardless of the $$$$$. I will patiently wait to see it, but I doubt it will happen. If it does I will be happy for the sheep until their numbers climb again. But I have a strong feeling that the Canadian OUtfitters are going to have a strong lobbying group over there at the Lieutenant Governour's Office if somebody tries to take away their livelihood.

The proof is in the pudding. As I have stated on another thread, there are countless ads from outfitters in B.C. and other parts of canada. There are booking agents all over the place trying to get people to book hunts. And those hunts fill up at $20-30 thousand a hunt. No shortage of money to go around and I am betting that the politicians will be weak in the knees when asked to make laws that cause people to have to relinquish their livlehoods.

I suggest that you check into the "War in the Woods" which was when VOLUNTEER environmentalists took on the enormously wealthy, international forest products corporations, the powerful international trade unions AND the B.C. Government in order to preserve a smidgen of B.C's "old growth" forests from the ravages of industry.....and won.

You can make all the snotty comments about me and who I ...speak for... that you want to, the facts are simply that decades of involvement in B.C/Canadian conservation have shown me exactly how to accomplish necessary changes in our current situation. I also think that I might be just a bit more conversant with the situation here than you are AND foreign, especially American, trophy hunting is highly unpopular here and has been for quite some years.

This is not about Canadian livelihoods, it is about B.C. conservation and residents rights. If, rich Yankees attempt to "buy" gutless politicians and the media gets onto this, as they will, this will work in favour of a permanent ban because it will arouse the general public to this problem. Either way, we residents will win and the Sheep will benefit.

The current Sheep populations will support resident hunting and even some Canadian hunting, but, no more foreign exploitation. I think that you will find the vast majority of Canadians will strongly support that. Foreigners are NOT on the same level as Canadians here and have no right of access to any of our resources.

It's kinda interesting, you keep telling me that I cannot stop foreign hunting, etc., yet, you also keep posting on this issue with considerable vigour. It strikes me that you may well realize that this is, in fact, the "twilight era" of foreign hunting here, otherwise, why would you be so active about something that is really not your concern? We will win, count on it.

You misunderstand. If you would consider what I have had to say, you would note that I hope that you do win, not so much for your sake, but rather for the sake of the sheep.

Yes, it is about resident's rights. But again, those B.C. outfitters are resident too, and as I said, I bet they will not let their right to make a living the way they choose go down lightly.

Yes, its about conservation. I said that two posts ago. $$$$$ against conservation. And I don't have to be in B.C. to know that $$$$$ wins that battle most of the time.

If American Trophy hunting is so unpopular, then why is it so prevelant?

Kutenay,
This thread has piqued my interest; I certainly respect, as do 99.9% of all "Yanks" I'm sure, your rights as a Canadian citizen and BC resident to manage your wildlife in accordance with the wishes and policies of the citizens of your country, particularly regarding the availability of tags and licenses for game species such as the Stone Sheep, and it seems patently inequitable that the tag availability for sheep would be skewed 2:1 in favor outfitters to resident hunters, although from an economic standpoint I can see it... You are obviously very well versed in this issue, and you continually make reference to what will likely happen in the very near future with respect to Non-Resident hunting in BC, if not all of Canada. What specifically do you think is going to be enacted that will eliminate the financial component from this equation? also, what impact does the upcoming election have, as I understand that, at least at this point, it appears as if the liberal party (apologies for what may be a misnomer) is going to be voted out in favor of the conservative party?

Please don't mischaracterize this post as my being condescending towards you or Canada, as I am genuinely curious about this topic.

Regards,
Craig Nolan

Kutenay:

It is a good thing we Arizonans don't treat the wealthy Canadians who snowbird in Arizona as you would treat us.

Go ahead an ban all alien hunting in BC; I could care less. The Yukon is better anyway.

Guess what? Africa makes BC look like New Jersey. There are choices. You should get out of the house more often.

quote:

Originally posted by kutenay:
As to the attitude concerning the "offer" of money for whatever, once again, you simply do not understand Canadian attitudes concerning wildlife, water, fish and a number of other issues. We do NOT want to sell our fresh water or "commodify" our wildlife and any such "offers" can be made illegal here with a simple Cabinet Order at the pleasure of the Lieutenant-Governor and subsequently enacted into legislation banning ALL foreign hunting.

This will both eliminate the $$$$$ situation as I have repeatedly explained and the elimination of 2/3 of the current "harvest" levels will assist with the recovery of the herds to historic levels while still allowing resident hunting.

Kute,
I respect your opinions and what you are trying to accomplish and agree that BC should be in control of their resources. However! If you ban all hunting except by BC residents, a total ban on hunting in BC will not be far behind. The anti-hunting, anti-gun groups are just too powerful and too well-funded for BC to take on alone.

Ban non-residents you'll likely alienate all support from conservation organizations worldwide and no one will help fight off the anti's.

Call for a poll of "AR CANADIANS". Agree/Disagree with the direction Kute is taking you?