In my opinion, the FN driving band bullets (NF and GSC)have one advantage over RN steel jacket solids (Woodleigh) for elephant in double rifles and that is a lower risk of bore or rib damage due to less pressure. I do not see that the FN solid's added penetration is an advantage for elephant. The Woodleigh has more than enough penetration for any use on eles. I ended up shooting through a large cow broadside with a Hornady FN solid from a 458 Win and killing an unseen elephant behind her. The Woodleigh would have stopped under the skin on the far side and not killed the 2nd ele. I think we have gotten to the point where we are over doing the penetration thing. This is true for elephant and even more so for buffalo. I see no reason to ever again use a solid on buff with the excellent softs we now have available. The FN may cause more tissue damage than RN solids but on a high heart/lung shot on elephant the RN will kill it as quickly as a FN solid. Elephant are not that tough to kill quickly with this shot. I disagree with Rich that the FN solid should be limited to bolt guns. In many they just won't feed. I wouldn't trust them in my bolt gun on DG.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:

quote:

Originally posted by Antlers:

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
.... and finding the perfect target to shoot at.

Ok, I'll bite...plz share.

The 8" or whatever big black Circle Target.

The premise of this is that it is vital to have
exactly the same sight picture for each shot.

Instead of aiming at the centre of the black (10 ring)
put a 1" Square of Round sticker at 6 o'clock
on the edge of the black circle.

Now, what I found was that when on target,
the front bead covers the white spot in full,
but if you are off target (ie have a different
sight picture,) you can see white either wide
of the bead or above it.)

In addition, big black circle of the target
sits in the V of the rear sight - if too low,
the cream area of the target shows.

I found it works for me and helped greatly
in regulating DR's as it removed my sight
picture variation so what I was seeing was
the guns true shooting.

When not needing quite the accuracy,
I also put stickers at 12 o'clock
so I can use the target twice.

I will try to find a picture.



Is that description clear and understandable ?

.

Pictures might help. I followed the big black circle in the rear sight, but didn't quite follow the "1" Square of Round sticker" description.

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
JPK,

I think each person ought to do what they want to do.
It's their rifle and money. A person needs no other reason to try what he thinks should be the best thing for himself!

Rusty, no doubt! But we'd all be driving Model T's if we remained willfully ignorant of the advances that have been made. For that matter, we all still be shooting Cordite in our geriatric rifles!

JPK

No problem JPK! Just because it's new don't make it the best. I hope you've sold all those geriatric Mauser? I know you've already made the transition from lead core bullets!

Ahh Rusty, I am damned, the unloved and forgotten of the geriatric rifle world. I am a lefty!

I drool over those lovely custom Mausers, ussually for sale for some fraction of what I have to pay for a similar new lefty custom rifle. The volume of the second hand market in lefty guns sucks, making looking for something special a trial. But you can always be sure that a fine second hand rifle in exactly the chambering and with every feature I desire will come availble the moment that I take delivery of a new rifle!

JPK

Gentlemen, let me say this...

I have used Woodleigh Solids for elephant in my 9,3x74R, my 450/400 3 1/4", and my 450 No2, on brain shots with PERFECT results...

However I have also used the North Fork 450gr FP for brain shots on elephants, as well as body shots on giraffe.

The NF FP does penetrate quite a bit deeper, and as a Flat point does make a larger would path.

It is simple physics/common sence.

Also the North Fork Solids are perfectly safe in even vintage doubles. They were designed to be from the start...

quote:

Originally posted by Antlers:

Pictures might help. I followed the big black circle in the rear sight, but didn't quite follow the "1" Square of Round sticker" description.

I will try to get a picture.

The "1" Square of Round sticker" is white and placed on the target, right on the edge of the black circle at 6 o'clock.

The White sticker really makes a clear aiming point against the black background.

Anyone help me out with posting a picture ?

Send me a PM with an email address and I'll
email the picture to you.

Posted for 500N:



I received a small image so I hope this turns out OK!
I have not been following this closely, but I use a 50 yard pistol target and a 6 o'clock hold with open sights on my double. Looks like that is similar to what 500N is suggesting, with the white dot a 6 o'clock helping to locate the front sight.

Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
Posted for 500N:



I received a small image so I hope this turns out OK!

Peter.

Thanks Peter.

I hope that explains what I was talking about.

I just find it a lot easier to keep a consistent sight picture using the white dots or squares.


EDIT
The Big Black Circle also fits into the V of the rear sight and when combined with the front bead covering the white dot, you always have the same sight picture.

Just my HO that works for me.

I just modified my post. Please take a look at it and see if my comments make sense.
Peter.

Peter and 500N, thanks very much - it makes sense now!

I also typically use a 4", 6" or 8" round target, depending what I can get, and a 6:00 hold. I like the smaller target since for me it displays any horizontal hold error more readily.

But I have found that a particular sight in target designed for scope use works maybe even better. It has contasting colors and a series of three (incomplete) triangles within a 4" circle. For these I hold for center, which is the point of one downward pointing trianle and the valley between two upward pointing triangles, putting the point of the downward triangle on the top of the bead.

(Jeez, after reading that triangle stuff, I will have to try to find a photo of the target type so that what I wrote is understandable.)

I'm going to try 500N's target type, but I think with a 4" or 6" bull.

JPK

It has been three weeks since I asked the original question of 400 Nitro Express. I am told that he is a busy man and probably cannot find the time to respond quickly. I know how that is so I wait patiently and take the opportunity to elaborate on the differences between GSC drive band bullets and others, as well as address some misconceptions.

Rusty,

quote:

Just my personal view.
I know that shooting monolithic solids has damaged my barrels. I didn't own the rifle when it was done.
Whether it happens or not, I don't think a person should use monolithic solids in a thin barrel vintage double rifle. Modern doubles, thicker barrels, shoot what you want.

I believe that your rifle has been damaged. I ask the question: Assume a novice loader and hunter shoots an animal with a 7mm RM at close range with a thin jacketed, soft lead core match bullet. The bullet blows up on impact, the animal escapes and dies days later. The cause of the problem is obviously the very soft jacketed lead bullet. Is he justified in saying that he will never use another jacketed lead bullet, ever? Being a novice he may say so and it would be up to a more knowledgeable person to explain the differences between the wide variety of jacketed bullets to him. Another question: Would you say that cast lead monolithic solids of .458" diameter, with wide lube grooves, would be as damaging to fire in a 458 WM as monolithic solids ground to .458" diameter from tungsten carbide?

All monos are not created equal as all jacketed bullets are not created equal. Design diferences are taken into account regularly. Why not when drive band FNs are the discussion point?

quote:

Having said that, I see no advantage to using a monolithic solid in a double? Either yours or some other mono-metal bullet!

I cannot speak for other mono manufacturers but the advantage of using GSC FN monos in a double is clear. There are no regulation issues. Ask anyone who uses them, do not ask someone who thinks a friend of his ex's mother may have used them in 1992. They are proved to penetrate straight more frequently than lead core solids. They are proved to penetrate deeper than round nosed lead core solids. The engraving pressure is proved to be lower than that of any other type of bullet. Barrel wall pressure (once the bullet has been engraved) is lower than that of any other type of bullet. However, having said that, you are free to use any bullet you like but, please do so from an informed opinion and not from an incorrect set of facts.

500N,

quote:

"and also in remarkable accuracy advantage."

Stretching the truth a bit here aren't we ?

Accuracy depends on a number of things. Mainly we search for consistency and concentricity of the entire system. The harmonics that occur when a rifle is fired, plays a big role. GSC bullets are consistently closer in weight and diameter than jacketed bullets. They have better consistency in roundness, length and form than any pressed or swaged type of bullet. The low engraving pressure also causes the lowest harmonic disturbance of the system when fired. Taking all things into account, accuracy comes easier when certain qualities are present. FNs present those qualities consistently.

quote:

from my perspective, shooters should spend more time practising shooting than working on loads etc. Would have a hell of a lot of impact on group size IMHO.

This is true. It is likely the easiest path to good shooting - practise, practise, practise.

465H&H,

quote:

I think we have gotten to the point where we are over doing the penetration thing.

Amen. This is the secondary reason why we design for slight expansion of the meplat of an FN bullet. It ensures a more effective wound channel while penetration remains more than adequate for any purpose. The primary reason is to work towards better stabilisation in target with better shoulder stabilisation and by shifting the CG forwards. A straight wound channel is worth much more than one that goes a little deeper but does not go where it was intended.

NE 450 N02,
You have it figured. Using both types and comparing, makes up the doubter's mind very quickly.

quote:

Assume a novice loader and hunter shoots an animal with a 7mm RM at close range with a thin jacketed, soft lead core match bullet. The bullet blows up on impact, the animal escapes and dies days later. The cause of the problem is obviously the very soft jacketed lead bullet. Is he justified in saying that he will never use another jacketed lead bullet, ever? Being a novice he may say so and it would be up to a more knowledgeable person to explain the differences between the wide variety of jacketed bullets to him. Another question: Would you say that cast lead monolithic solids of .458" diameter, with wide lube grooves, would be as damaging to fire in a 458 WM as monolithic solids ground to .458" diameter from tungsten carbide?

All monos are not created equal as all jacketed bullets are not created equal. Design diferences are taken into account regularly. Why not when drive band FNs are the discussion point?

I'm sorry Gerard, but that statement makes no sense, to me. What does lead bullets have to do with your bullets?

Do you mean that lead bullets are in the same category as copper mono bullets?

Just what do you think the percentage of your product is used by double rifle shooters?

Rusty,
My post contains no hidden meaning. There is no innuendo, no traps and no double talk. It says what it says. If you are not interested in straight talk and facts, say so, do not pretend not to understand.

I repeat my question: Design differences are taken into account regularly, when similarly constructed products are assessed. Computers, ball point pens, golf balls, lead core bullets, primers, powder, rifles, tractors, whisky, you name it. Why not when mono solids are the discussion point?

TRACTORS? Did someone mention TRACTORS??? I LOVE tractors, i have 17 right now... lol lol

DM