Dave I will have to go find my targets. I will get back to you. For the 500/416, I believe that I just started with low end 416 Rigby loads and worked up. As to soft points I think that I just settled on Nosler Partitions as they shot well, but I have some Woodleighs as well. Again I will go back and check.
Peter.

Ok Dave, this is what I have. bear in mind that I was hoping to go on a DG hunt in the near future so I was not trying to develop THE load, just something that I could (reliably) use in a hurry. My DG hunt was replaced by a vacation home so it did not happen! Perhaps this year.





You will notice that I used Hornady softs for the "joint" target. Both targets at 50 yards. I stopped load development at this point for the reasons stated above, plus the GS Customs are NOT cheap and I was not about to "polish the turd". I did not chrono these loads but did some others:
400 gr. Woodleigh SOLIDS, 95 grs. IMR 4350 2409 and 2439 fps.
410 gr. Woodleigh SOFT 109.5 H1000, 2340 fps.
Usual caveats with the reloading data
Peter

Try a 6:00 hold and see if your verticle dispersion doesn't vanish.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Try a 6:00 hold and see if your verticle dispersion doesn't vanish.

JPK

I know this is a bit off topic, but I have been wondering for a while, who is "500 grains".

John

"500Grains" is a fella that used to post here that got into a bit of trouble on the political forum with the "management" and was banned.

Funny thing is, I went to his home town to meet him, after we had had a lively exchange here on AR. We were both wearing our fighting clothes...

Well not really, but it does make for a good story...

However, after meeting him, we have become best friends and talk almost daily.

We have hunted and shot together several different times.

He is very knowledgeable on double rifles, and bullets and shooting elephants.

In person he is a perfect Gentlemen.

He was a "little" radical on the political forum.

I do wish he could be reinstated everywhere but the political forum....

BUT this is Saeeds playground, and those that play here must [and I agree] play by the rules.

I, for one am very happy that Saeed provides this Forum for us.

It is the best on the Planet.

I am most grateful for this site,I have learned most of what I know about shooting here,I am grateful for the friendships that I have forged,my thanks to Saeed for making it all possible,I wish politics and personal agendas would not get in the way of what this site was intended to accomplish.

North Fork Solids are designed so that the "shank" of the bullet does not touch the b arrel, at ALL.

However this works only IF the demensions of your barrel are "standard".

I have shot NF Solids in my 450 No2, with excellent results, on game and with regulation.

However,the shank of the bullet from the left barrel is slightly engraved with 2 lands only... very lightly engraved....

Again a reason to slug both your double rifle barrels...

For the record I have seen rifling marks on the outside of the barrel of double rifles.

Also, I know 400 Nitro Express very well.

He knows his stuff when it comes to double rifles.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
John

"500Grains" is a fella that used to post here that got into a bit of trouble on the political forum with the "management" and was banned.

Funny thing is, I went to his home town to meet him, after we had had a lively exchange here on AR. We were both wearing our fighting clothes...

Well not really, but it does make for a good story...

However, after meeting him, we have become best friends and talk almost daily.

We have hunted and shot together several different times.

He is very knowledgeable on double rifles, and bullets and shooting elephants.

In person he is a perfect Gentlemen.

He was a "little" radical on the political forum.

I do wish he could be reinstated everywhere but the political forum....

BUT this is Saeeds playground, and those that play here must [and I agree] play by the rules.

I, for one am very happy that Saeed provides this Forum for us.

It is the best on the Planet.

Sounds like the sort of guy that this forum needs. Maybe he will be back one day.

Two of the factors in engraving pressure (shot start pressure) is the volume of material that must be displaced and how it is diplaced. The smaller the displaced volume, the better.

If there is room for the displaced material to go to, all of it, not just enough to make ad copy out of it, that is best. Any material that must be compressed into the shaft of the bullet, greatly increases engraving pressure.

A factor in barrel wall pressure is the ductility and malleability of the material. Materials such as lead and copper that are soft and will take plastic deformation easily, are good at deforming and staying deformed with little spring back (malleable). Once engraved, they remain engraved and do not try to return to the undeformed state. Less pressure is exerted on the barrel wall.

Brass has better elasticity than copper, until the elastic limit is exceeded and then it breaks. Brass may even be softer than some hardnesses of copper but, it is less malleable. Ask yourself why cartridge cases are made from brass and not from pure copper. Less malleability translates to higher sustained barrel wall pressure.

Material that is displaced into the bullet shaft will cause the bullet to elongate. The pressure required to do this is considerable.

GSC drive band bullets have the lowest volume of displaced material, none of which is displaced into the bullet shaft and copper is most malleable of all bullet materials except pure lead.

quote:

Also, I know 400 Nitro Express very well.

He knows his stuff when it comes to double rifles.

He may know his lumps and his bites but his knowledge of bullet technology is disappointing. His slanderous statements regarding GSC bullets must be addressed and brought to a conclusion. It is a different matter if, during a discussion, someone says "I thought these are the same as those." When someone is regarded as an authority on a subject and says he has checked and GSC bullets were the cause of damage to a double, he had better come with proof to back it up.

Gerard

What is the shank diameter of your .458 calibre bullets?

They average 11.43mm for .458WM and its derivatives. We make a special order bullet for the 450N.E. and 450 No 2 N.E. because they are a different groove diameter to the .458 bolt rifles.

What would the shank diameter be for the 450 No2?

Most all .450 and .458s are specified at 11.43mm (.450") on the shank. The .458 bolt rifles are specified at a groove of 11.63mm (.458")and the two 450N.E.s are 11.61mm (.457") in the groove. If the individual rifle requires adjustment from the CIP or SAAMI specification it is easily done and does not cost extra.

I see the 450N.E.s are not on our bore/groove dimension page. I will get it added. We have added a page for twist rates by manufacturer as well. If anyone has additional info that we can add there, email me and we will adjust or add.

Anyone know where I can email, write, fax or call 400 Nitro Express? Please email or PM me.

Thanks.

I was kind of waiting for a reply too. While I think 400 knows his stuff on older doubles. I think he sticks his head in the sand on other issues.

Gerard,

I have used your product in a 22 hornet and a 308 and you make a great product. Just wish they were a little easier to get here in the states.

Ed

To 400 Nitro:
We met at the Hyem booth when Graeme Wright brought me over for an introduction. Seeing your Hollis 450-400 made a believer out of me on the subject of OSR. While a mild case I could see the shadows of the rifling on the exterior of the left barrel. I have shot Barnes banded solids from my vintage .600 Wilkes with no problem but the shaft of the bullet did not come in contact with the bore of the rifle. I have written about it more on my webiste: calpappas.com If you would like, I would like to chat with you more and perhaps write an article about your experiences for the African Hunter magazine. Please email and perhaps we can talk by phone. Seeing is believing. I was very skeptical prior to meeting you.
Cheers,
Cal

Gerard, and Cal, I will give 400 Nitro a call.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:

I, for one am very happy that Saeed provides this Forum for us.

It is the best on the Planet.

The knowledgeable/experienced [I am neither] participants make

this place what it is. N E 450 No2, you and many others could make

"campfire" or "nitro express" as good or better than here. The

New York Yankees are nothing with only a bunch of "2nd stringers"

in the line up. But with 6 or 7 Jeter caliber guys there's magic...

quote:

Gerard, and Cal, I will give 400 Nitro a call.

quote:

Anyone know where I can email, write, fax or call 400 Nitro Express? Please email or PM me.

Gerard:

You've made your point. Mark is a pretty good guy. I think it's time to let this go.

Gerard,
Are you telling us that no double rifle has ever been damaged shooting your bullets?

Or, that you have not been made aware of such an event? The owner of a rifle has not told you that your bullets damaged his rifle?

Did you ever hear back from JJ?

Just curious?

Rusty,

quote:

Are you telling us that no double rifle has ever been damaged shooting your bullets?

I make that assumption and I think, reasonably so, because it is well known that we make the claim that a double cannot be damaged by our drive band bullets. We make that claim because we addressed the problem directly and solved it. If we have messed up (always a possibility), we are prepared to make good. That is how it has been with me for more than 30 years and I have no intention of changing now.

quote:

Or, that you have not been made aware of such an event? The owner of a rifle has not told you that your bullets damaged his rifle?

This is the premise upon which I make the above assumption. Where is the logic of having a double delaminate or develop OSR, as a result of using a bullet and then not contacting the bulletmaker, who makes the claim as we do? If a double delaminates and the gunsmith who does the repair points out that it was caused by some other reason than the use of a GSC bullet, why would we be involved?

We have had one incident of a well used Sarasqueta 470NE that delaminated and where the owner had used GSC bullets. He bought the rifle (it had delaminated before and was repaired locally), developed loads with GSC FN bullets and started using the rifle. After roughly a year of use (125 shots), he ran out of FNs and reordered. It took us two or three weeks to deliver and, in that time, he also developed loads with a steel jacketed lead core bullet. The rifle delaminated on shot #11 with the jacketed bullets. He had it repaired and it delaminated immediately he started using it. He had it repaired and continued with our FNs, which were received by that time. The rifle has been fine since then. Coincidence? Who knows? The gunsmith who did the repair pointed a finger and it was not at GSC.

quote:

Did you ever hear back from JJ?

I have not heard from JJ. I sent him an email two weeks back.

Dave,

quote:

You've made your point. Mark is a pretty good guy. I think it's time to let this go.

I appreciate your sentiment and the wish to avoid further unpleasantness. The bottom line is however that Mark has made some statements that is damaging to much that I have worked for the last decade and more. His remarks, made deliberately and after I gave him the technical reasons why his opnion is wrong, caused existing customers to stop using our FNs and resulted in the cancellation of at least two orders. Due to his status as an "expert" and the fact that he makes statements he considers within his field of expertise, it causes those who seek advice to accept his statements without question. This is not a difference of opinion I am having with Mark, it is a difference of fact.

He referred to a picture of a GSC FN bullets by saying:
"The lands clearly cut through the bands and engraved the full diameter of the shank, which isn't compressible. That's what causes damage to DR barrels."

I explained why this is not possible and asked:
"You need to contact the owners of the doubles with the damage you describe and ask what brand of monos they used."

His reply was:
"Actually, I have, and GS were used."

Further, he stated directly that it is untrue that GSC bullets are within the specification that we say they are. This is an area where we go to great trouble to ensure that, when we state a size, we are within 0.005mm (0.0002") of that size from batch to batch.

After I pointed this out to Mark, he replied with:
"You posted the photo, which makes it clear that this statement is not true."

I require a retraction of these statements and his removal of the posts with a suitable explanation of why they are altered/removed.

I do not mind a good (sometimes heated) debate. I do not mind a difference of opinion.

I do mind a deliberate misrepresentation of fact and a damaging set of statements that seem without substantiation in fact. I do not go around accusing accountants and attorneys of dipping into trust accounts because I heard a rumour or "think it is so" without facts to back up my statements. I am told that, in the USA, truth is an absolute defense against slander. I am interested in the truth.

Gerard:

PM sent.

quote:

. . . I am interested in the truth.

I'm not sure if any of us know what the "truth" is.

Just my personal view.
I know that shooting monolithic solids has damaged my barrels. I didn't own the rifle when it was done.
Whether it happens or not, I don't think a person should use monolithic solids in a thin barrel vintage double rifle. Modern doubles, thicker barrels, shoot what you want.

Having said that, I see no advantage to using a monolithic solid in a double? Either yours or some other mono-metal bullet!

The Truth is the Truth, no matter if it is damaged barrels or shipping bullets.

Just my opine.

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:

quote:

. . . I am interested in the truth.

I'm not sure if any of us know what the "truth" is.

Just my personal view.
I know that shooting monolithic solids has damaged my barrels. I didn't own the rifle when it was done.
Whether it happens or not, I don't think a person should use monolithic solids in a thin barrel vintage double rifle. Modern doubles, thicker barrels, shoot what you want.

Having said that, I see no advantage to using a monolithic solid in a double? Either yours or some other mono-metal bullet!

The Truth is the Truth, no matter if it is damaged barrels or shipping bullets.

Just my opine.

Rusty,

If you saw and measured the difference in performance between the FN, driving band mono solids and the RN steel jacketed solids, you would want to shoot the driving band monos.

The difference is there with penetration, wound channel diameter and adjacent damage and also in remarkable accuracy advantage.

This is in addition to the important feature that they are easier on the barrels of any rifle that any alternative.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
To 400 Nitro:
We met at the Hyem booth when Graeme Wright brought me over for an introduction. Seeing your Hollis 450-400 made a believer out of me on the subject of OSR. While a mild case I could see the shadows of the rifling on the exterior of the left barrel. I have shot Barnes banded solids from my vintage .600 Wilkes with no problem but the shaft of the bullet did not come in contact with the bore of the rifle. I have written about it more on my webiste: calpappas.com If you would like, I would like to chat with you more and perhaps write an article about your experiences for the African Hunter magazine. Please email and perhaps we can talk by phone. Seeing is believing. I was very skeptical prior to meeting you.
Cheers,
Cal

If you are shooting Barnes, the shaft of the bullets IS the bands. The grooves represent rebates from the shaft, not the other way around, like true driving band bullets.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by 505ED:
I was kind of waiting for a reply too. While I think 400 knows his stuff on older doubles. I think he sticks his head in the sand on other issues.

Ed

So true. An expert on older Brit double rifles, but that is where his expertise ends.

JPK

JPK,

I think each person ought to do what they want to do.
It's their rifle and money. A person needs no other reason to try what he thinks should be the best thing for himself!

quote:

Originally posted by John Frederick:

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
John

"500Grains" is a fella that used to post here that got into a bit of trouble on the political forum with the "management" and was banned.

Funny thing is, I went to his home town to meet him, after we had had a lively exchange here on AR. We were both wearing our fighting clothes...

Well not really, but it does make for a good story...

However, after meeting him, we have become best friends and talk almost daily.

We have hunted and shot together several different times.

He is very knowledgeable on double rifles, and bullets and shooting elephants.

In person he is a perfect Gentlemen.

He was a "little" radical on the political forum.

I do wish he could be reinstated everywhere but the political forum....

BUT this is Saeeds playground, and those that play here must [and I agree] play by the rules.

I, for one am very happy that Saeed provides this Forum for us.

It is the best on the Planet.

Sounds like the sort of guy that this forum needs. Maybe he will be back one day.

Yes, his banning was and remains a great loss. Unfortunately, he will not be back, I think.

His differences with Saeed went far, far beyond the political forum and into the essence of hunting, especially DG hunting and in particular the essence of elephant hunting.

JPK

500 grains! A real obnoxious SOB on AR but Mr. Milk Toast in person. Couldn't quite figure that out.

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

The difference is there with penetration, wound channel diameter and adjacent damage and also in remarkable accuracy advantage.

JPK

"and also in remarkable accuracy advantage."

Stretching the truth a bit here aren't we ?


A gun (in this case our DR's) either shoot or they don't.

My guns shoot - using another bullet isn't going to make them shoot any better OR more accurately from the loads I have worked up.


"wound channel diameter"
You are omparing against normal steel solids with Lead centres ?

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

The difference is there with penetration, wound channel diameter and adjacent damage and also in remarkable accuracy advantage.

JPK

"and also in remarkable accuracy advantage."

Stretching the truth a bit here aren't we ?


A gun (in this case our DR's) either shoot or they don't.

My guns shoot - using another bullet isn't going to make them shoot any better OR more accurately from the loads I have worked up.


"wound channel diameter"
You are omparing against normal steel solids with Lead centres ?

No, not stretching the truth, you are wrong on the accuracy! If you move to GSC or NF bullets you will see that each barrel group will be significantly cut in size. Likewise composite groups, since when barrel group size drops so does composite group size. Moreover, imperfect load development really shows up when your individual barrel groups shrink, making for both better loads and better shooting barrels.

Think about it, if dispersion is hiding load issues, you aren't going to be able to develop the optimum load. When the dispersion is absent, load development can advance.

With the driving band solids, the theoretical "figure eight on its side" with the right and left barrel POI's centers only the difference between center at the muzzle is actually approachable, if you can shoot.

Yes, FN solids leave an appreciably larger wound channel, as well as greater damage adjacent to the wound channel compared to RN steel jacketed Woodleighs.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
JPK,

I think each person ought to do what they want to do.
It's their rifle and money. A person needs no other reason to try what he thinks should be the best thing for himself!

Rusty, no doubt! But we'd all be driving Model T's if we remained willfully ignorant of the advances that have been made. For that matter, we all still be shooting Cordite in our geriatric rifles!

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

No, not stretching the truth, you are wrong on the accuracy! If you move to GSC or NF bullets you will see that each barrel group will be significantly cut in size. Likewise composite groups, since when barrel group size drops so does composite group size. Moreover, imperfect load development really shows up when your individual barrel groups shrink, making for both better loads and better shooting barrels.

Think about it, if dispersion is hiding load issues, you aren't going to be able to develop the optimum load. When the dispersion is absent, load development can advance.

With the driving band solids, the theoretical "figure eight on its side" with the right and left barrel POI's centers only the difference between center at the muzzle is actually approachable, if you can shoot.

Yes, FN solids leave an appreciably larger wound channel, as well as greater damage adjacent to the wound channel compared to RN steel jacketed Woodleighs.

JPK

Last point first - no question about it - RN Steel Solids weren't meant to leave a ragged wound channel and having just put through some of the new Woodleigh Hydrostatic "whatever they are called", then yes, I can see what you mean there.

On the first point - Nearly all of my doubles shoot SxS, I don't need Mono's to achieve that. Just normal load development. You get the odd finike one that needs a bit more playing around with to get just right but overall, never had much of a problem.

And yes, I can shoot, and so do my doubles otherwise they get pissed off PDQ.

So I hate to dissapoint you but I really can't see how a bullet is going to make that much difference.

from my perspective, shooters should spend more time practising shooting than working on loads etc. Would have a hell of a lot of impact on group size IMHO.

quote:

Last point first - no question about it - RN Steel Solids weren't meant to leave a ragged wound channel and having just put through some of the new Woodleigh Hydrostatic "whatever they are called", then yes, I can see what you mean there.

On the first point - Nearly all of my doubles shoot SxS, I don't need Mono's to achieve that. Just normal load development. You get the odd finike one that needs a bit more playing around with to get just right but overall, never had much of a problem.

And yes, I can shoot, and so do my doubles otherwise they get pissed off PDQ.

So I hate to dissapoint you but I really can't see how a bullet is going to make that much difference.

from my perspective, shooters should spend more time practising shooting than working on loads etc. Would have a hell of a lot of impact on group size IMHO.

Steel jacketed solids were designed to kill game by making deep holes to and through vitals. FN solids do a better job of both reaching the vitals and making the hole through the vitals that kills game. They are better at killing game in almost every way. (I still rely on Woodleighs when making the first brain shot on eles since I believe that the Woodleighs penetrate heavy bone better.)

For illustration, lets assume your 500N X double measure .5" barrel center to barrel center at the muzzles. Your theoretical perfect groups would be 1.1" (.5" of barrel center to barrel to barrel center + 2 x 1/2 of bullet diameter, no verticle dispersion) If your rifle, shot with cup and core softs or steel jacketed solids isn't appraoching that level of accuracy you owe it to your rifle and yourself to try the true driving band solids and expanding bullets like the NF cup point or the GSC.

I don't doubt that you can shoot, the reference was not directed at "you" personally but at the "you" who is shooting any given rifle. Applogies if my inartful drafting caused offense.

If changing bullets cuts dispersion down by, lets say, 50%, that IS significant since it would cut group size by a significant amount, no matter how well the rifle shoots with other than drive band bullets. I would expect a greater than 50% cut in dispersion, btw. See my prior paragraph on approaching theoretical perfect groups.

Cetrainly, but once you shoot enough that the rifle is the limitation and not the shooter, it is time to move on to improving the rifle's shooting, eh?

And ahhh!, the beauty of double rifles and large lots of powder! (And for my own situation, the ability to load ammo adjacent to the standing bench equipped shooting range!) Develop a load once and you are good to go for alife time with but a few minutes between lots of hundereds and hundreds of rounds!

With the ability to load and shoot, load and shoot..., even when I struggle, it might take a couple of hours to find that "perfect" load. About fifteen minutes if I have run out of powder and re-tune my load for a new lot. For one rifle I have loads for softs with the "75% Rule", for full weight Woodleigh softs, for full weight Woodleigh solids and for NF solids, cup and FN. Hmmm, five loads.

If I stuggled on all five it would take ten, maybe fifteen, maybe even twenty hours once in a life time to get the loads right, eh?

A couple of hours every so often to re-tune for new lots of powder, eh?

Surely not too much committment for a fine double rifle, or for elephant hunting, or buff hunting, or hog hunting, or deer hunting? Not even for an enjoyable lifetime of punching paper, eh?

JPK

No worries. you and I are similar.

I live 1/2 from a range.

The best thing I ever did was go from a bench to a solid standing rest and finding the perfect target to shoot at.

FYI, All of my 500's and most of my others are regulated about the width of the barrels apart.

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
JPK,

I think each person ought to do what they want to do.
It's their rifle and money. A person needs no other reason to try what he thinks should be the best thing for himself!

Rusty, no doubt! But we'd all be driving Model T's if we remained willfully ignorant of the advances that have been made. For that matter, we all still be shooting Cordite in our geriatric rifles!

JPK

No problem JPK! Just because it's new don't make it the best. I hope you've sold all those geriatric Mauser? I know you've already made the transition from lead core bullets!

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
.... and finding the perfect target to shoot at.

Ok, I'll bite...plz share.

I have followed this in a somewhat desultory manner since Day One. I see some advantages for these monolithic bullets in bolt rifles, since load work centers around getting the accuracy and velocity you desire. For the Double Rifle, it is a much different situation. The primary point of the exercise with a Double is regulation. The other issue is the comparatively thin barrel wall thickness. Five hundred bucks will put a new Krieger barrel on any of my bolt rifles. I really don't want to know what Butch Searcy would want to replace a barrel (or worse, both) on my .470 NE.
So, I'll look at the bullets for my bolt rifles, and just stick with Woodleigh or the new Hornady offerings for my DR. Thank you...

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by Antlers:

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
.... and finding the perfect target to shoot at.

Ok, I'll bite...plz share.

The 8" or whatever big black Circle Target.

The premise of this is that it is vital to have
exactly the same sight picture for each shot.

Instead of aiming at the centre of the black (10 ring)
put a 1" Square of Round sticker at 6 o'clock
on the edge of the black circle.

Now, what I found was that when on target,
the front bead covers the white spot in full,
but if you are off target (ie have a different
sight picture,) you can see white either wide
of the bead or above it.)

In addition, big black circle of the target
sits in the V of the rear sight - if too low,
the cream area of the target shows.

I found it works for me and helped greatly
in regulating DR's as it removed my sight
picture variation so what I was seeing was
the guns true shooting.

When not needing quite the accuracy,
I also put stickers at 12 o'clock
so I can use the target twice.

I will try to find a picture.



Is that description clear and understandable ?

.