400 Nitro Express

On 4 March last year you referred to a picture of a GSC FN bullet in the following manner:

quote:

The lands clearly cut through the bands and engraved the full diameter of the shank, which isn't compressible. That's what causes damage to DR barrels.

I replied thus:

quote:

The barrel groove diameter of a 500NE is 13.00mm (0.512"). The land to land diameter of a 500NE is 12.70mm (0.500"). The bullet you see has a shaft diameter of 12.70mm and, measured on the drive bands will measure 13.010mm (0.5122"). It is therefore not required for the body of the bullet to compress in any way.

You need to contact the owners of the doubles with the damage you describe and ask what brand of monos they used.

You then called me a liar:

quote:

You posted the photo, which makes it clear that this statement is not true.

You further stated that you contacted the owners of the damaged doubles:

quote:

Actually, I have, and GS were used.

5 March I replied with:

quote:

That is a serious allegation and one we must follow up on. Kindly contact the users and ask them to get in touch with us so that we can arrange repair/replacement. That is what we undertake to do if GSC product caused what you say. Now we wait for a response.

8 March I posted:

quote:

Well, I have had no contact regarding the damage to doubles allegedly caused by GSC bullets.

Given that it took only slightly more than 3 hours to contact the people and to go from "I don't know" to "Actually, I have, and GS were used." the delay approaching four days is strange.

If silence prevails, I will start to wonder about the validity of your opinion on other matters and what to believe and what not, when you post.

On 11 March I posted:

quote:

7 days with no contact other than Dave. Shall we call it what it is?

The questions now are:

1. When may I expect an apology from you for making false statements regarding GSC Bullets?

2. When may I expect an apology from you for calling me a liar - with the implication that GSC bullets are not manufactured to the sizes that we say they are?

Gerrard:

Don't you remember it was my Holland & Holland Royal .577 sidelock that was damaged beyond repair. I had to simply throw it away. I don't remember the serial number. You were supposed to send me a new one but I haven't gotten it yet

Dave, I think you said it was a 470 sidelock?

Come to think of it Rusty, you're right... It was a .470! I sure liked that old gun. Rusty, didn't you have a lovely 450/400 little vintage Rigby best grade that was damaged too?

Well I think my Purdey was damaged too along with both my Rigby .450 and my H&H in .600NE.

You haven't seen what is left of my pair of .577 N.E Woodwards Side locks then

Naw, Dave I didn't. My Hollis isn't going to see any Monlith solids.

Gerard,I have never used a GSC bullet in anything! That is not because I think they are somhow enferior to any other bullet of similer design, but that I simply have never even had one in my hand.

However, the material, and design of solid body, and pressure rings are right on the mark, IMO. However, there is a responsibility of the rifle owner to slug his barrel very carefully for the exact measurements of his barrels before useing any bullet that has any part of it a solid monometal mass which may be as large or larger than the groove diameter of his tightest barrel. I think you would agree with that premise.

I have no doubt that barrels have been damaged by all Mono-metal bullets, no matter who made them, or what rifle they were used in, if the rifle's owner did not do his part before useing the bullets.

As I'm sure you are aware, OSR and other damage with Mono-metal bullets exists. In some cases it is a poor attempt to design the bullet its'self, and sometime the measurements in the rifle owner's barrels,or both. In both cases the damage could have been avoided by one or both doing things differently, and not accepting their own responcibility in the matter, is a cop out.

To make a long winded post even longer,both the maker, and the rifle owner have their part in any damage done. If the maker fails to offer warnings about the customer having his barrels slugged before ordering that bullets, and the bullet maker printing the exact measurements of the pressure rings, and valleys between them, on the box, and listed on his website, that sooner or later damage will be the result.

So I guess what I'm saying is both buyer, and seller have some responsibility to supply information to avoid the damage that my result. IMO, however the guy loading these bullets in his very expensive double rifle has far more responsibility than the bullet maker.

............I believe 400's take is simply do not take the chance, because there are too many proven choices,which is true, and the bullet makers like you, and North Fork know if the barrels are RIGHT, no damage will occure, which IMO is also true.

My take is use them if you want, but do your home work first, and if you don't do your homework don't complain when you see the rifleing show up on the outside of the barrel or barrels, or the ribs, and wedges breaking loose.

...........Just my .02cents

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
However, there is a responsibility of the rifle owner to slug his barrel very carefully for the exact measurements of his barrels before useing any bullet that has any part of it a solid monometal mass which may be as large or larger than the groove diameter of his tightest barrel. I think you would agree with that premise.

I'll go one step further.

With these older guns / double rifles:-

The above (slug the barrel) should be done before using ANY bullet, period,
not just mono's but especially in the case of using any mono's - if you
so desire to use them.

Dave, Rusty, surestrike, husky,
I see that GSC has an obligation towards the four of you. As we have always done, all problems that come our way are taken seriously and addressed appropriately, whether they are real or imaginary. We do our best to ensure that customers remain satisfied.

To the four of you, and anyone who may want to get on to the bandwagon, below are your replacement double rifles. If you need more than one, simply follow this procedure as many times as may be required by your individual need. Note that this download requires no serial number either.

1. Right click on the picture below.
2. From the drop down menu select "Save image as".
3. Name the picture in the caliber of your choice.
4. Save it to your PC in a folder that is easily accessible so that you can look at it frequently.



MacD37, 500N,
I like to think that we have done our homework on this. There are two issues of concern here, OSR and delamination. Here is my take on it.

Personally I have never seen OSR and have not seen a picture of it. I have not met someone who has seen it or a picture of it or owned a gun that had it. That does not mean that it does not exist. I am sure many things exist that I have not seen personally and that only a handful of people have experienced.

OSR has been described as the appearance of the rifling on the outside of the barrel. To see an anomaly on a polished metal surface, it has to be measurable. Metal has moved from somewhere else to where it is visibly out of place. The only place where metal can move from, to be visible as OSR, is from the inside of the bore. Either the lands, or the grooves, have expanded radially. One of the dimensions at A or B in the picture below must therefore measure larger than specification.



Has anyone measured the internal dimensions of a double with OSR? I do not mean slugging the bore. That only tells us what the dimensions of the narrowest part of the barrel is. The dimensions must be physically measured, to be accurate and to identify variations in diameter at various points.

Until there is evidence, other than 400 Nitro Express or someone else saying he has seen it, I reserve opinion on whether it exists as a result of the use of a particular type of bullet or whether there is another reason for it.

Doubles and S/S shotguns have been delaminating for more than 200 years. This is long before monometallic bullets were used in them. How can anyone logically conclude that only monometallic bullets cause delamination? I do not have enough information on delamination and the use of smooth or grooved monos to express an opinion on whether delamination incidents have increased, but I do know this: GSC has been supplying drive band monos since 1997 and we have not seen a single complaint of delamination.

I know why. GSC has designed a bullet shaft that addresses the problem and solves it. Even if there is a slight mismatch between a GSC bullet and the barrel dimensions of a double, the result will still be of less concern than with any other type of bullet. Note that everything that is decribed as a banded bullet is not always a drive band bullet and grooved bullets definitely are not the same as drive band bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by Gerard:
MacD37, 500N,
I like to think that we have done our homework on this. There are two issues of concern here, OSR and delamination. Here is my take on it.

I agree that your bullet is perfectly designed, never said otherwise!

quote:

Personally I have never seen OSR and have not seen a picture of it. I have not met someone who has seen it or a picture of it or owned a gun that had it. That does not mean that it does not exist. I am sure many things exist that I have not seen personally and that only a handful of people have experienced.

You have not met someone FACE TO FACE who has seen it, but you have met several on this website that have seen it first hand, and one of them is writing this post to you right now! So why the steadfast resistance to OSR's existance? If your bullets are not causeing problems then it is not your worry! It seems the chance of it's existance has caused you to design a bullet that is far less likely to cause it. I wounder why that is!

quote:

OSR has been described as the appearance of the rifling on the outside of the barrel. To see an anomaly on a polished metal surface, it has to be measurable. Metal has moved from somewhere else to where it is visibly out of place. The only place where metal can move from, to be visible as OSR, is from the inside of the bore. Either the lands, or the grooves, have expanded radially. One of the dimensions at A or B in the picture below must therefore measure larger than specification.

Gerard, you are preaching to the Quire on this issue, we understand how it happens, and yes it should be measureable on some level, I simply don't have the expertese to measure it properly. I have attempted to photograph it with little success, but I'm not a professional photografer. I think I have worked out a way to photograph it though, so time will tell.

quote:

Until there is evidence, other than 400 Nitro Express or someone else saying he has seen it, I reserve opinion on whether it exists as a result of the use of a particular type of bullet or whether there is another reason for it.

Gerard you seem to be operating in two different dirrections on this. You accuse others of calling you a liar about something or other in one of your posts, yet it seems OK for you to do the same to people who have seen this first hand. That seems a little inconsistant to be somehow. 400 Nitro has seen it on several rifles, I have seen it, personally,on most of those same rifles. JJ Pardeau one of the best double rifle smiths alive today, as seen it, and Bal 73 has just had a Chapuis delamanated after useing Barne X bullets in it, against reccomendations against it. 577Nitro express owns a doubel rifle that has OSR in the last 5" of the right barrel.

You seem to have had some insight as well because of the way you designed your mono-matal bullet to avoid OSR, and/or Delanination. So why the staunch denial of any posibility that we are seeing the results we say?

quote:

Doubles and S/S shotguns have been delaminating for more than 200 years. This is long before monometallic bullets were used in them How can anyone logically conclude that only monometallic bullets cause delamination? .

The above statement is not true! Solid round balls of hardened lead have been used in shotguns with tight chokes as long as shotguns have been choked, and who are you, or I to say they were not the reason for the delamination of the barrels, over that 200 yrs? I would agree that most were probably from corrosion caused by poor care, but that doesn't mean they all were caused by poor care.

quote:

I do not have enough information on delamination and the use of smooth or grooved monos to express an opinion on whether delamination incidents have increased, but I do know this: GSC has been supplying drive band monos since 1997 and we have not seen a single complaint of delamination.

And.... on the other hand you do not have enough information to disclaim the phenomenon either.

quote:

I know why. GSC has designed a bullet shaft that addresses the problem and solves it. Even if there is a slight mismatch between a GSC bullet and the barrel dimensions of a double, the result will still be of less concern than with any other type of bullet. Note that everything that is decribed as a banded bullet is not always a drive band bullet and grooved bullets definitely are not the same as drive band bullets.

The above quote seems to say to me that you know that where there is smoke there is usually fire, and I agree that your bullets have solved it as you say. Also as you say all banded bullets are not the same, and that has been my contention all along. I have always reccomended GS Custom, and North fork bullets, to folks who insist on useing a Mono-metal bullet in thier double rifles, with one caveat, that they slug their barrels before useing them. The Brass bullets from Barnes with the wide BANDS around the shank seem like a poor design to me, and solid copper smooth shanked bullet with no pressure rings, I will not use nor will I reccomend to others.

Gerard I think you are howling before your bit here. Nobody I know is saying your bullets are in anyway damageing double rifles as long as they fit the bore on the double, and the HOME WORK I was mentioning was in regard to the double rifle owner, not you or NF. they are the one who needs to be sure your bullets fit their barrels or not. You are the constant, the barrles on the doubles are the veriable!

I use North Fork bullets in all my double rifle that are bored for a bullet they make, and they work fine. I would use your bullet as well, if they were as available as the NF is to me here in the USA.

I think all 400 Nitro is saying is if there is any doubt about useing ANY mono-metal bullet in your double simply use something else. Why take the chance since there are other choices that you know work.

I have no idea why so many people on the internet seem to disregard the testamony of folks who have seen this first hand, simply because they haven't seen it for themselves. The cost of rebarreling or re-laminating a double is a major outlay of coin that can simply avoided by not useing a bullet that is suspect, and IMO the GS CUSTOM, and the NORTH FORK FPS, and CPS are the only two I know of that are not suspect as long as the rifle owner does his home work.

Gerard I am not your enemy, and I assure you I have seen OSR personally, and I suspect you know, or at least suspect it exists as well, based on you design.

All my opinions on this matter are in print here, and you may take them or leave them, your choice, but I'll discuss this no further!
.....................

Gerard:

Serious question!

I went to your web page and took a look at your HV and solid bullets as well as the load data for those bullets. In some instances, your bullets for double calibers are quite different from the weight and shape of bullets customarily used in a double such as a Woodleigh. For example, your solid bullet for the .500 NE I think is 540 grains rather than the customary 570 grains, of very blunt shape, and the load data suggests 2300 fps. The HV bullet in that caliber is very pointed and I think weighs on 450 grains. Have you had good luck getting them to regulate?

Gerard,

I only posted my comment above about Slugging barrels
as I believe that is important and needed to be corrected.

I have no corner in this fight / discussion but will say this.

I have seen OSR on a barrel.

Living in Australia and with Woodleigh's so readily available I have not had the need until recently to use any type of mono. That was until Dec / Jan this year when as one of my DR's was in the perfect location to be used for testing a Woodleigh Hydrostati so that was what was used (WR 500/465). However I spoke with the owner of Woodliegh who I know well. All was good.

Anyway, I will leave it to others from here in.

I won't comment on the design side of bullets.

MacD37, 500N,
I am not attacking you, I do not by any means see you as an enemy. You are reading meanings into my post that do not exist and you are reacting unecessarily.

quote:

So why the steadfast resistance to OSR's existance?

I said clearly that I have not seen it myself but that does not mean it does not exist. I said I would like to see it measured and I would like to see the cause of it run to ground. That is the opposite to resisting it.

quote:

Gerard you seem to be operating in two different dirrections on this. You accuse others of calling you a liar about something or other in one of your posts, yet it seems OK for you to do the same to people who have seen this first hand.

I do not understand where that comes from. 400 Nitro Express called me a liar. I called no one a liar regarding the existence of OSR, never said OSR does not exist and all I want to see is the cause be explained and understood.

quote:

So why the staunch denial of any posibility that we are seeing the results we say?

Where did I deny the existance of OSR? This is a complete misconception on your part. I am saying it exists, we must find the cause and address it. I have done my bit with the design of the GSC bullet shaft and I resent that 400 Nitro Express attributes damage to doubles to us directly, as he has done. That is the lie and I am calling him on it.

quote:

You seem to have had some insight as well because of the way you designed your mono-matal bullet to avoid OSR, and/or Delanination.

I designed, amongst other things, to prevent delamination. OSR is an issue that I have only been aware of for the past two years or so.

quote:

So why the staunch denial of any posibility that we are seeing the results we say?

Where did I say that?

quote:

The above statement is not true! Solid round balls of hardened lead have been used in shotguns with tight chokes as long as shotguns have been choked,

My bad - replace "This is long before monometallic bullets were used" with "This is long before monometallic copper bullets were used"

quote:

And.... on the other hand you do not have enough information to disclaim the phenomenon either.

Here is the reason for my concern. Read what I said: "I do not have enough information on delamination and the use of smooth or grooved monos to express an opinion on whether delamination incidents have increased" I do know that drive band monos will not cause it. That is what I said and my concern is that our drive band bullets get lumped in with grooved bullets, "banded bullets" and monos of any other type.

Here is the bottom line and the reason why I started this thread. It was not aimed at you and I have not shifted aim to you after your post:

quote:

If your bullets are not causeing problems then it is not your worry!

Nobody I know is saying your bullets are in anyway damageing double rifles

I think all 400 Nitro is saying is if there is any doubt about useing ANY mono-metal bullet in your double simply use something else.

400 Nitro Express made the direct allegation that GSC bullets caused damage to doubles. He also called me a liar. He stated:

quote:

That's what causes damage to DR barrels.

You posted the photo, which makes it clear that this statement is not true.

Actually, I have, and GS were used.

That is what this thread is about. GSC bullets cannot be the cause of OSR or delamination, we know that. I will not let 400 Nitro Express' statements stand without retraction.

GSC is no longer "that guy in Africa". We are setting up to produce in the USA and 400 Nitro Express' statements have had repercussions beyond this forum. It must be set right.

Dave,
I am not enough of a double rifle expert to tell you why regulation is no problem.

What I do know is that regulation difficulties have not been raised as an issue with double rifle owners who use our bullets.

I have more difficulty explaining that GSC bullets are easier to develop loads with and do not have the issues found with smooth sided cup and core bullets. For a start, tuning group size by varying speed is fruitless and can be cut from the load development procedure.

With GSC drive band bullets there is less vibration as the bullet transitions from case to bore. We have seen that on the pressure graphs in a ballsitic lab. We also know that the pressure rise and peak is slower than with smooth bullets and of course the drive band bullets run faster than smooth bullets for two reasons: Less engraving pressure and less weight than conventional bullets. This results in more area under the line in the pressure curve and different timing and more speed.

Alltogether it comes together in such a way that regulation difficulties never come up.

quote:

Originally posted by Gerard:
Dave,

tuning group size by varying speed is fruitless and can be cut from the load development procedure...

Alltogether it comes together in such a way that regulation difficulties never come up.

Gerard, I have to say that I am skeptical but if this is indeed true than WOW, you have really stumbled on to something.

I know this is a bolt rifle but see the bottom of this page for an idea of what I mean.

Gerard:

PM sent.

quote:

Originally posted by Gerard:
400 Nitro Express made the direct allegation that GSC bullets caused damage to doubles. He also called me a liar. He stated:

quote:

That's what causes damage to DR barrels.

You posted the photo, which makes it clear that this statement is not true.

Actually, I have, and GS were used.

That is what this thread is about. GSC bullets cannot be the cause of OSR or delamination, we know that. I will not let 400 Nitro Express' statements stand without retraction.

gerard

the quote you posted is a direct comment to a picture of a few GS bullets where you claim that the body of the bullet would not be engraved, one of the pictures showed that the bullet body were indeed engraved, and 400NE called you on that.

the comment "simply not true" or as you claim "called me a liar" is a factual comment of your statment that the body would not be engraved and it were.

gerard, i think you make good bullets, allthough it has been a year since you promised me, that you would send me some for tests in double rifles, i still eagerly await those samples, so i can conduct those tests myself, i still wait but i must admit that the initial interest has cooled somewhat (a years waiting period does that to me)

why dont you show the picture with the bullets and your and 400NE's remarks along side it so that people can deside for themself what this is about. you usually post factual and accurate statments and this strikes me as a bit off for you, maybe you could try to step back and look at the statments for what they are.

best regards

peter

quote:

Originally posted by Gerard:
Dave,
I am not enough of a double rifle expert to tell you why regulation is no problem.

What I do know is that regulation difficulties have not been raised as an issue with double rifle owners who use our bullets.

Alltogether it comes together in such a way that regulation difficulties never come up.

Gerard the fact that nobody raises a dialog with you about regulation problems, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. It absolutely does in most cases.

It is that double rifle people simply know that when you change bullets to a different design, weight, shape, or a powder lot, it is automatic that a double rifle will need the have a new load worked up to shoot to regulation! The thought that you wouldn't know that never crosses their minds.

I'd say you will never hear of that from double rifle owners. It is a simple fact that double rifles are simply a Zebra of a different stripe, and opperate with a different set of rules from a single barreled rifle. These guys don't see it as a necessity to make you aware of that fact, so they just work up a new load, and go shooting.

not to jump into this thread with much knowledge on this subject but macd37 makes a legitament point on slugging the barrels. case in point; i have a very nice jp sauer d.r. that i prize it is in .43 mauser. if i listened to what i was told and not slugged the barrels i would have ruined a very nice d.r. it seems before 1917 the .43 mauser bullet had no standard instead of a bore dia. of .446 this one was .430 a close call on my part. i have since spoken to other owners of this caliber d.r. and they have run into this same thing. as macd37 i advocate slugging the barrels,

quote:

GSC bullets cannot be the cause of OSR or delamination, we know that.

This is a simple way to refute any comments:

Provide an independant person with a NEW double rifle and your bullets. Let him/her shoot two hundred round out of it and send it to a gunsmith for evaluation.

If there is OSR, you have your answer; of not, you have your answer also.

I for one have a A. Francotte that was proofed in 1923 that has OSR. It happened before I bought the gun. The rifle is in excellent condition and shows little use.

I don't know how it happened, but it has a slight OSR.

I will not shoot anything other than Woodleigh bullets in my rifle. There are too many unknowns for me to risk any damage to my DRs. Other people rave about other bullets. That's fine for them, but not for me.

I'm sure others will have a differing experience from mine and I would like to hear them. I have used North Fork FN solids and Cup Points in my Searcy 470 and North Fork FN solids in my 465 Nitro. I started with the same loads as I used with Woodleighs and they both shot to the same point of impact with the NF's and Woodleighs. Was I just lucky? I have never used GS Custom in either so can't say about them.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 577NitroExpress:

quote:

GSC bullets cannot be the cause of OSR or delamination, we know that.

This is a simple way to refute any comments:

Provide an independant person with a NEW double rifle and your bullets. Let him/her shoot two hundred round out of it and send it to a gunsmith for evaluation.

If there is OSR, you have your answer; of not, you have your answer also.

I for one have a A. Francotte that was proofed in 1923 that has OSR. It happened before I bought the gun. The rifle is in excellent condition and shows little use.

I don't know how it happened, but it has a slight OSR.

I will not shoot anything other than Woodleigh bullets in my rifle. There are too many unknowns for me to risk any damage to my DRs. Other people rave about other bullets. That's fine for them, but not for me.

Sounds fair...

Send me the rifle and the bullets.

I will do the shooting.

We can let JJ Perodeau, do the inspection on the double.

MacD37,

quote:

MacD37: These guys don't see it as a necessity to make you aware of that fact, so they just work up a new load, and go shooting.

quote:

Gerard: What I do know is that regulation difficulties have not been raised as an issue with double rifle owners who use our bullets.

We agree then. Whether you work up a load with Brand Whatever or with GSC, if there are no difficulties that are out of the ordinary, all is well.

usps,
You make a very good point. Determining the bore size of a used double before or after acquiring it, is the normal and prudent course of action. It would be as normal as having a gunsmith check out the condition of the bore of a used bolt rifle before buying it.

577NitroExpress, Antlers, N E 450 No2,

quote:

This is a simple way to refute any comments:
Provide an independant person with a NEW double rifle and your bullets. Let him/her shoot two hundred round out of it and send it to a gunsmith for evaluation.

Been there and done that in 1996. I did not use new doubles though, they were well used but in excellent condition. In the 13 years since then, that we have been supplying drive band bullets to double rifle owners, they have fired many, many times more than 200 shots with them. Old guns, new guns and in calibers ranging from 7mm through to 600NE. Not a single double has been reported to us that has delaminated or suffered OSR. What would 200 rounds through a new double prove? The major concern, as I see it, is damage to old and irreplacable guns and not with new guns.

That is why I take issue with the false statements made by 400 Nitro Express.

peterdk,

quote:

one of the pictures showed that the bullet body were indeed engraved, and 400NE called you on that.

You are a gunsmith. The bullet in question was fired from a 500NE. A 500NE has bore/groove dimensions of 12.70mm/13.00mm (.500"/.512"). The bullet shown has a shaft diameter of 12.70mm and a drive band diameter of 13.00mm. Please tell me to what depth a land diameter of 12.70mm will engrave a shaft diameter of 12.70mm? It will cut through and push aside the drive bands which are 13.00mm diameter. What happens to the dislplaced drive band material? It is deposited in the space behind each drive band on top of the shaft surface not so?

quote:

why dont you show the picture with the bullets and your and 400NE's remarks along side it so that people can deside for themself what this is about.

Good idea. I will try to find that particular bullet and do some close up photos. I think it is still around the workshop somewhere.

In the meantime, have a look at this post. It is picture heavy so wait for it to set up at this post in the thread.

quote:

The major concern, as I see it, is damage to old and irreplacable guns and not with new guns.

Gerard,

Agree 100%, and that's why using a new DR, with new barels using modern steel
is NOT a good test, regardless of the bullets used, your's or someone else's.
(Edit - That is not inferring that your bullets are a problem).

One of the factors is the SOFTNESS of the steel used in SOME of the older DR's
and hence why only SOME DR'S show OSR.

quote:

Originally posted by Gerard:
peterdk,

quote:

one of the pictures showed that the bullet body were indeed engraved, and 400NE called you on that.

You are a gunsmith. The bullet in question was fired from a 500NE. A 500NE has bore/groove dimensions of 12.70mm/13.00mm (.500"/.512"). The bullet shown has a shaft diameter of 12.70mm and a drive band diameter of 13.00mm. Please tell me to what depth a land diameter of 12.70mm will engrave a shaft diameter of 12.70mm? It will cut through and push aside the drive bands which are 13.00mm diameter. What happens to the dislplaced drive band material? It is deposited in the space behind each drive band on top of the shaft surface not so?

quote:

why dont you show the picture with the bullets and your and 400NE's remarks along side it so that people can deside for themself what this is about.

Good idea. I will try to find that particular bullet and do some close up photos. I think it is still around the workshop somewhere.

gerard
i agree with what you wrote, but one of the pictures still shows the body engraved by the rifling and that might produce a difficult situation in the barrel, other than that i look very much forward to do some tests myself, when the bullets arrive

best

peter

quote:

one of the pictures still shows the body engraved by the rifling

I could not find the bullet in question to do better pictures of it, so here is an enlarged version of the FN that I presume you think is engraved into the shaft. If this is the one, please tell me where you see that the shaft has been engraved by the lands of the barrel. Below the first FN is another enlarged picture of an FN. Do you think that is also engraved into the shaft?

I have included some pictures of bullets that do have engraving of the shaft. Most of these bullets are under size for the groove diameter of the respective barrels, as can be seen from the fact that no barrel marking is visible between the engraved lines. The areas between the engraved lines are supposed to seal against gas blow by in the grooves of the barrel. On some bullets the manufacturing markings (turned or swaged) are still untouched.

FN #1

FN#2

#3

#4

#5


What say you to these HV drive band bullets - Are the shafts engraved by the lands of the barrels? Note the oddity of the drive band displacement on the 450gr .458" HV fired from a 460 Weatherby rifle. Anyone want to venture an opinion on what happened? The bottom pair are a pair of 40gr HVs from a 22-250.

458 450gr HV - 460 Weatherby

A pair of deuces.

Gerard,
Just from looking at these pictures I'd would say that all were engraved on the full body of bullet, not just the driving bands. Perhaps #5 isn't? I can't tell.

I'm sure I don't understand as I don't use these type of bullets. I thought that the rifling was to just engage the bands not main bullet body? At least that what I think of with these kinds of bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
Gerard,
Just from looking at these pictures I'd would say that all were engraved on the full body of bullet, not just the driving bands. Perhaps #5 isn't?

I agree - most look like the shaft of the bullet has also been engraved by the lands.


I had this same discussion with Geoff Mcdonald from Woodleigh before sending down the hydrostatic bullets to make sure all was OK beforehand and this exact discussion was had (about making sure that the bullet shaft would not be engaged or engraved by the rifling.

Sorry Gerard, but to me those pictures look like the bullets have been fully engaged.

quote:

What say you to these HV drive band bullets - Are the shafts engraved by the lands of the barrels? Note the oddity of the drive band displacement on the 450gr .458" HV fired from a 460 Weatherby rifle. Anyone want to venture an opinion on what happened? The bottom pair are a pair of 40gr HVs from a 22-250.

Note the oddity of the drive band displacement on the 450gr .458" HV fired from a 460 Weatherby rifle. Anyone want to venture an opinion on what happened ?


High Velocity, heating up of the metal to possible fluidity ? and therefore displacement.

Just my HO.

At first I thought they must be engraved too...

But then when you compare the GS bullets to the solid shank ones - they are not quite the same.

I think that the displacement of the driving bands, and removal of the bullet coating gives the illusion of a groove in the GS bullet body.

When I looked at the bases of the bullets I can see on the solid shank monos that the rifling has clearly impressed itself in the bullet body.

On the base of the GS bulets - aside from the displcement of the bands I see no groove in the actual body of the bullet.

At least this is my impression...

This thread that Gerard has started is founded in a thread that

I started named A BIT OF PROGRESS. Subsequently I started another

thread, THE PUSH THROUGH TEST. Here's the link in which I detail

my troubles with GSC FN bullets.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...611084021#5611084021

I wish all this would be straightened out, I really do.

Gerard reported to me that he can and does make the bullets

with any diameter shank and any height in the bands. .005" for

example or .007" as another example it depends on the exact barrel

the bullets are to be shot from. Now you all see above is my thread

with pic's when I tried to push GSC FN's through my bores with a

rod and basically was unable to get them to any real depth at all.

I had to use the rod to push them out the other way. I thought I'd

be able to push them through more or less with the effort it takes

to load a projectile in a muzzle loader rifle. NO WAY did that

happen and I was GREATLY disappointed. I am convinced the design

of the bullet is the very best to penetrate the toughest stuff,

like elephant skulls. But as of now I am afraid to use them in my

old double. I am very, very unhappy to have to make that choice.

I am not rich and just can't risk loosing my rifle to some crazy

sort of damage. I really hate this.

Sometimes things are not what they seem...
I would be curious to hear the measurements of the fired GSC bullets in the pictures??? It appears to me that the displaced material from the drive bands, has smeared together to give the appearance of "engraving the shank", when possibly the diameter of these engraved marks might be greater than the original shank diameter. I could be way off base here, but it is possible.

Measurements would tell the tale.
In the 500NE example...if the shank started at 12.70mm and after shooting measured 12.71mm... could the increased size be from the displaced drive bands??? Or maybe it's still 12.70mm, but polished by the drive band material?

I'm the FNG here in the wonderful world of doubles, so don't jump my ass on this idea. I have never shot any form of mono in any of my doubles and have no experience to form an opinion. Just a thought...
ND

BigFiveJack,
there is quite the learning curve when you start shooting double rifles,I would not consider myself an expert by any means,you do learn some things as time goes by,for example:I would not shoot the Barnes TSX bullets out of my Chapuis ever again,I am sure there would be people that would argue with me over this,just check on the thread discussing this and OSR over on the Nitro Express forums,that discussion has been beaten to death
I would not worry at all about the fact that you had a hand in starting this discussion,it's good to see stuff discussed on this forum,it's been a great learning experience for me,I would shoot what I would be comfortable with shooting out of my rifle,you have a grand old english gun,shoot through it what it has been fed before & have your peace of mind,leave the debating to the experts,to me it's more about shot placement & knowing your gun rather than the latest bullet voodoo,like you told me on another thread,why fix it if it aint broke!!

quote:

Originally posted by BigFiveJack:
This thread that Gerard has started is founded in a thread that

I started named A BIT OF PROGRESS. Subsequently I started another

thread, THE PUSH THROUGH TEST. Here's the link in which I detail

my troubles with GSC FN bullets.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...611084021#5611084021

I wish all this would be straightened out, I really do.

Gerard reported to me that he can and does make the bullets

with any diameter shank and any height in the bands. .005" for

example or .007" as another example it depends on the exact barrel

the bullets are to be shot from. Now you all see above is my thread

with pic's when I tried to push GSC FN's through my bores with a

rod and basically was unable to get them to any real depth at all.

I had to use the rod to push them out the other way. I thought I'd

be able to push them through more or less with the effort it takes

to load a projectile in a muzzle loader rifle. NO WAY did that

happen and I was GREATLY disappointed. I am convinced the design

of the bullet is the very best to penetrate the toughest stuff,

like elephant skulls. But as of now I am afraid to use them in my

old double. I am very, very unhappy to have to make that choice.

I am not rich and just can't risk loosing my rifle to some crazy

sort of damage. I really hate this.

BigFiveJack,
First order of business is to assure you that the FNs I made for you are exactly what your double requires. I understand your trepidation at doing this excercise and backing off from it. It is very intimidating the first time one does it.

When you push a drive band bullet down the bore, it needs about 750psi to get it through the throat and the drive bands fully displaced. After that, it needs less pressure and I normally tap it with a copper rod. You were one drive band away from a smooth ride down the bore and out the muzzle. I take it that you tried this bullet in the larger of the two barrels.



Shot start pressure or engraving pressure is dependent on several factors: The volume of material that must be displaced and how difficult it is to displace the material. By comparison (anyone with Quickload can confirm this) the approximate engraving pressure or shot start pressure of bullets are:
1. Smooth solid copper - 9000+psi
2. Grooved solid copper - 4300psi
3. Jacketed lead core - 3600psi
4. Smooth brass/bronze - 3200psi
5. "Banded" bronze/brass - 2900psi
6. Copper drive band - From 750psi to 2100psi
7. Cast lead - 1100psi

Look at the notches in the drive bands of your bullet. Once shot start pressure has been taken care of, the next thing to consider is barrel wall pressure. Barrel wall pressure is dependent on two factors. The amount of material in contact with the barrel wall and the axial (not radial) compressibilty of the shaft of the bullet.

Looking at the list of bullets 1 to 6 above, barrel wall pressure is, from highest to lowest:

1. Jacketed lead core.
2. Smooth solid copper
3. Smooth brass/bronze
4. Grooved solid copper
5. "Banded" brass/bronze
6. Copper drive band

Cast lead is not quantified.

So you may enjoy your old double and, if it delaminates, it would have done so earlier with any other bullet you could use. I can assure you that OSR is not in your future with this double and our FNs.

Bottom Line (there is always one): Try this "pushing down the bore" thing with any other type bullet, other than a drive band bullet or a cast lead bullet, at your peril. I do not recommend it and you are on your own if you try it.

Look at the picture of the pair of deuces below. The groove diameter of the barrel is on size. This can be seen from the fact that, on the bullets, the coating is absent from the tops of the drive bands and there are drag marks that indicate contact with the barrel. The gas seal is good with no blow by.

However, the land standoff of this rifle was less than what it should be. The bore diameter is larger than the shaft diameter of the bullet. One can see that the drive band material was squished mostly to the rear and deposited as a pad on top of the bullet shaft (best visible at A) and a wedge shape (visible at each drive band notch) pointing to the front and rear of the bullet. There is a distinct series of pads of material visible at B and downwards.

If there were contact between the faces of the lands and the shaft of the bullet, the contact lines would have had a uniform width and no break in the bottom of the trough or the wall either side of the trough as at C. See bullets #3 and #4 above for an unbroken engraved line of uniform depth.

There has been no engraving of the shafts of the Pair of Deuces.



The picture of the 458450HV fired from the Weatherby shows a much closer match between the bore and groove dimensions of the barrel and the shaft and drive band dimensions of the bullet.

Two Zero and Nitrodave nailed it. The picture below shows the difference between shafts that are engraved to land standoff depth (1 and 2) and an the HV (3) where the drive band material has been displaced to the sides and across the shaft length. The giveaway is the distinct bevel at the end of an engraved shaft, down the base of the bullet, and the absence of a bevel on the HV.



The anomaly on the drive bands is interesting. We only see this with calibers or rifles that have a long freebore and shallow lead angles. The bullet travels through the freebore and gathers enough speed, due to the length of the freebore, that the shallow leade angle does not cause it to start rotating immediately when it finds the rifling. In this case the bullet took almost the entire shaft length to balance the spin up torque against the resistance from the drive bands on the bullet. The same bullet fired in a 450 Rigby or 458 Win Mag shows normal engraving with no skidding at the front.



The Bottom Line: If the bore diameter of the barrel is the same as, or larger than, the shaft diameter of the bullet, there can be no engraving of the bullet shaft.

Well, FWIW I use GS Custom FNs in my 416 Rigby (CZ bolt) and my 500/416 K gun (double). No problems so far. No rifling on the outside of the barrel(!). Double easy to regulate with the solids (and super accurate with both rifles). What's not to like? If the issue is using GS Custom FNs on old doubles then let's clearly state that and let's find someone who wants to "donate" their old double to the cause.
Peter.

Peter:

You mentioned that you are shooting the FN bullets in your .500/.416 K-gun. I have a K-gun in that caliber as well. I was wondering what soft point bullet you were using and how they 380 grain FN solids regulated with your softs? Also, where did you find load data for the .500/.416 with the FN bullets and what kind of velocity are you getting with the FN solids?