Really. I want one.
400 Nitro For Blackpowder (3"): .395 caliber 230-grain lead bullet, 47 grains cordite, 2050 fps, 2150 fpe.

A Martini-actioned single shot in the same caliber is also on the wish list.

Not a 400 Purdey with .405 bullets of same ballistics. No sir. Gotta be .395 caliber.

Some day I might get lucky.

This:



NOT This:

Like this too, from Donnelly:

400/.395 BP 3" circa 1880
400/.395 Nitro for BP 3" loads: 1902 ???
400/.405 Purdey 3" with same "Light Express" ballistics: 1905 ??? Kynoch says 1920's ???

Reasons for confusion and obscuration of the original .395 bullet diameter: Purdey ???

.400 Purdey 3" Nitro-Express
aka
(rightly or wrongly with no regard for bullet diameter):

.400 3" Straight
.400 NE 3"
.400 Nitro for Black Powder
.400 Nitro for Black Powder 3"
.400 Purdey
.400 Black Powder Express
.400 Purdey Nitro-Express
.400 Purdey Light Rifle Express
.400 Purdey 3"
(10.2x76R)

Above "Aliases" from: http://mselect.free.fr/glossaries/denominations5.htm

Some pretty stuff from: http://www.ammo-one.com/400Purdey.html




I suggest that henceforth, to avoid confusion, the 400 Nitro for Black Powder (3") should be called the 400/395 Nitro for Black Powder (3").

Some more 400 Purdey stuff from http://www.municion.org/Purdey/400Purdey.htm :

Has anyone on this forum ever seen a 400 Nitro for Black Powder (3") rifle whether double rifle or single shot?

Have any Martini BP cartridge rifles with .395 barrels been spotted besides that one mentioned many years ago on these forums? One forum member from the past said he owned one, had slugged the barrel and it was .395" in the grooves.

I'm on the prowl for .395 caliber antiques.

We can build new .395 caliber rifles, but they will have 12" twist barrels.

You are talking to yourself again!

I doubt I will run across one, but if I do I'll let you know.

This is the new and true 400 Nitro Express 3", the one and only.

No other cartridge has as much right to the name as this. The 400 Jeffery Nitro Express (450/400 NE 3") is an impostor!

400NFBP3" loaded with 300 to 400-grain bullets at 2100 to 2300 fps: that gives it a new name by the British convention, and a new life as a no longer obsolete cartridge. of course it can continue to be loaded as a 400NFBP3" for any antique applications.

I am repeating myself on the big bore forum, in prof242's thread: ".395 Bullets."
Hoping someone here has seen or knows of a .395-barreled antique.

I shall endeavor to persevere.
Thanks for noticing me talking to no one but myself, until you came along Charles. I feel sane again.

So is the 400 BPE a .395? Saw dies listed here.

Charles,
"400 Black Powder Express" is one of the Aliases listed for the 400 Purdey 3" above, and it might be either the 400Nfbp3"(.395-caliber) or it might be a .405-caliber for all I know. It seems to be a matter of which way the wind is blowing that day.

I will contact Lenny and see about it. Thanks for that lead in the Group-H dies of the table you linked.

Really they are all the same in the case, with either a .395 bullet or a .405 bullet, and different loadings with either BP or "light-loaded-cordite," all with the anemic 230-grain bullet ... as far as I can tell.

I hope the 400 BPE is the direct forerunner of the 400NFBP3"(both .395 caliber). Purdey got a wild hair with the .405.

I have learned from this forum that rebores are quite feasible.

Reboring of some forsaken 9.3x74R double rifle to .395 caliber is a possibility, just in case all the DR-builders of the world do not immediately jump on the .395 bandwagon.

Just talking to myself again.

A new loading of the 400 x 3" common case of all these will produce a new cartridge: "400 Nitro-Express-3"-No-Confusion," made with .395 heavy bullets, heavy-cordite, and 12"twist barrels.



Then we can simply say "400NE" and be universally understood.

Another step in modernizing this TRUE 400 NE would be to add about .300" of parallel-side freebore to the throat then the normal leade taper after that. Bullets can be seated longer and have this cartridge effectively close to 3.25" case status. It is a finger-fed cartridge with no box or magazine constraints. Make the COAL with the 340-grain GSC HV and FN about 3.75".

The "True" 400 Nitro Express 3" One-And-Only (9.3x74R neckup) with a .395/340-grain GSC FN and a .395/400-grain Montana Precision Swaging lead bullet for dummy purposes. a .405 WCF to the left.



Ought to be able to make 400 Nitro for Black Powder (3") loads this way too: swaged down 10 mm jacketed pistol bullets, or cast lead, gas-checked bullets like the original.

quote:

Originally posted by Charles_Helm:
So is the 400 BPE a .395? Saw dies listed here.

Charles:
That firm is no longer offering reloading dies as their warehouse got wiped out by flood, and they let that segment go.

Those dies were .405 caliber and made by CH4D.

Dave Davison at CH4D should be able to do the .395 caliber 400 Nitro Express dies for $145 he says.

To conclude talking to myself here:
It is settled, we are calling it the 400 Nitro Express plain and simple as it should be, as it is the only cartridge deserving the title, and it is indeed "The Missing Link" in the Nitro Express transitions from Black powder.

Just wanted to post in case the echo in here was getting to you...

Enjoy the .400! (When you get it created and properly sorted, of course.)

Rip:

I really hate to break in on a guy that's having a pleasant conversation with himself. Even worse, I hate to pop his bubble, but...

With respect to the British flanged cartridges, there are certain reference works out that are so replete with errors, repeats of urban legends, etc., that they really need to be IGNORED. They certainly have zero credibility or utility. The two at the top of the list are COTW and Donnelly. If you read something in either source about the British cartridges, count on it being wrong. That way you'll have a nice surprise if it turns out to have been accidentally right.

As I've stated before on these threads...the .400 BPE, .400 Straight, .400 Purdey, .400 Light Cordite, etc., are the same cartridge. The .400 Purdey Light Cordite is nothing more than the Nitro for Black loading of the .400 BPE and others. No, bullet diameter has never changed, nor was it ever .395". It's the same that it's always been - .405".

For an example, I haven't thumbed Donnelly in over 10 years, but maybe my memory of one item in particular is still good. Look up forming instructions for .400/.360 Purdey and .400/.350 Rigby. I recall the forming instructions being completely different. I could be wrong, but those are the two that stick in my mind. Those two cases are identical, and can be used interchangeably. Forming instructions should be identical.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
400NFBP3" loaded with 300 to 400-grain bullets at 2100 to 2300 fps: that gives it a new name by the British convention, and a new life as a no longer obsolete cartridge.

I hope you're planning on using that in a Ruger No. 1, and nothing else. The pressure is going to be out there.
-----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

400 Nitro Express:
It does have a pleasant ring to it, eh?
My bubble is intact.
There are reports of Martini-actioned single shots that had barrels that slugged .395 in the grooves. These black powder cartridges of various length from 2.5-ish to 3.25-ish inches would have been the originals.
Since there was no "400 Nitro Express" without qualifier verbiage such as "Purdey" or "Jeffery"
attached to it ... well, I can call this .395-caliber, rimmed, straight, 3-inch cartridge only one thing: Your handle.

Yes, the initial rifle will be in a Ruger No.1, and it will outperform all the "pretenders" chambered in double rifles:

340 grains at 2400 fps, 27" barrel, monometal FN and HV (SD = .311)
400 grains at 2100 fps, 27" barrel, antique bullets (SD = .366)

Loads that reach reasonable pressures for modern double rifles are outside the realm of fantasy.

I have just now collected all the old COTW. I ordered them from ABE Books. Many you can get for about $5 plus postage (about $3 here in USA).
I did pay $15.00 plus $4.00 shipping for the first edition from 1965 (1965 issue price for it was $5.95).

First Edition COTW has the same .395 bullet diameter for the 400 Nitro For Blackpowder (3"), but they got the wrong picture, showing a bottle-necked cartridge, though the tabulation of specs show it to be the same dimensions of straight case as displayed previously.

Second edition got the picture right and all else stayed the same, right on through the Seventh Edition. It is gone from the Eight Edition and replaced by the 400 Purdey Light Express (3") that has a dozen aliases and is .405 caliber, and uses the same picture that was formerly used for the 400NFBP3". And so it remains, on into the Eleventh Edition.

I know there are hundreds of errors in Donnelly.
He was merely going by the specs from the Fourth Edition of COTW, and that was easy enough to copy.

Even Ken Howell made plenty of mistakes or typos in his book, though an order of magnitude more reliable than Donnelly.

The fact that COTW did correct the mistake in the first edition cartridge drawing for the 400 NFBP3", and then it persisted unchanged through the Seventh Edition does give some indication that Frank C. Barnes was "checking."

Anyway, Purdey was loading the same case with .405 caliber bullets instead of .395 caliber "Aboriginal Missing Link" bullets. They were doing it with the same weight, 230-grainers, decidedly light for caliber. Hence their designation as "Light Express" or "Light Rifle Express" for their 400. Never was a true "Nitro Express" loading.

With modern bullets and powders and a 12" twist there is now a true "400 Nitro Express" based on the straight case. This can get to the same "Nitro Express" levels as the 450/400 NE 3" by Jeffery.

Of course the .395-caliber 400 Nitro Express with 400-grain bullet will have a higher SD.

Of course this 400NE with 340-grain GSC FN and HV in a 12" twist will have greater lethality than the antique 450/400NE3".

If the 400NE never was, it is now possible.

Latest .395 caliber cartridge find:

10.15x65R Express with bullet diameter specified as 10.03mm which is in fact .395 caliber.

Read about it in the Big Bore Forum.

The same source also mentions a 10x82R aka: 400 Express, the Euorpean title for the English 400 3-1/4in BPE, but it does not specify the bullet diameter.

quote:

With modern bullets and powders and a 12" twist there is now a true "400 Nitro Express" based on the straight case. This can get to the same "Nitro Express" levels as the 450/400 NE 3" by Jeffery.

This was my exact initial desire for the 400 Nitro and started my curiosity...Back then it was to weak and only good for hogs ect but today like the other Nitro's benefit from modernity...This was the only one lost to time and weak powders. the others were kept alive due to larger capacity. It is as the lott is to the win mag as the 405 win is to the 400 Nitro. One barely enough for its purpose the other quite adequate.

what made the 450/400 famous and likeable is now transferred to this 400 N.E.

the 450/400 is more powerful and versatile but the reasons to have one are for light recoil, light rifle, classic, still powerful enough for D.G. and this 400 N.E. one has that and more.

What are the loads for the 450/400??? 400@ 2150!!!!!

There is a new sheriff in this town...and it is the 400 N.E.

What game are you going to shot with that caliber, that can't be done with a .400 Jeffery 3" N. E?

They are equals and that is a great thing but this is about resurecting the rightful and now potent 400 Nitro.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
They are equals and that is a great thing but this is about resurecting the rightful and now potent 400 Nitro.

Ahhh -NOW I understand!
Just what I and boha are trying to do with THE Master of the 9,3mm -The 9,3x63 (10,75x68 case necked down). Probably introduced BEFORE the 9,3x62

quote:

Originally posted by husky:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
They are equals and that is a great thing but this is about resurecting the rightful and now potent 400 Nitro.

Ahhh -NOW I understand!
Just what I and boha are trying to do with THE Master of the 9,3mm -The 9,3x63 (10,75x68 case necked down). Probably introduced BEFORE the 9,3x62

Thanks for visiting the asylum guys!

I need to tighten up the throat on this 400NE/10.03x76R-to-be:

RIP=Really Insane Person. Stream of consciousness on cartridge developement is interesting and entertaining.

Perry

quote:

Originally posted by PWN375:
RIP=Really Insane Person. Stream of consciousness on cartridge developement is interesting and entertaining.

Perry

ii

I think he needs to run this all by Shootaway, and allow him to do RIP's load development work...

Yes, genius is often seen as insanity until it is fully understood.

Elvis is still in the building:

"Thank you. Thank you very much."

Elvis in Afrikaans:

"Donkey. Buy a donkey."

quote:

Yes, genius is often seen as insanity until it is fully understood.

Did you ever have a dalliance in the Quebec area when you were younger?

Wayne Newton in Afrikanns:

"Donkey Shame..."

Jim,
If you mean shootaway, I have it on better authority than yours that he is the result of a love triangle between Walter and Ray: Walter used both sets of his sex organs for that one, and it was indeed a shame.

To commemorate the excellent turn of this thread, the .395 Family now has a a new Latin motto:

[I]Genius Loci.[I]
Pronounced: "Geen-ee-oose low-key"

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Jim,
If you mean shootaway, I have it on better authority than yours that he is the result of a love triangle between Walter and Ray: Walter used both sets of his sex organs for that one, and it was indeed a shame.

To commemorate the excellent turn of this thread, the .395 Family now has a a new Latin motto:

[I]Genius loci.[I]
Pronounced: "Geen-ee-oose low-key"

Now THAT's hillarious!

PS - If Walter used both sets of his sex organs, what did Ray use? You know what, please don't answer that.

NO!!! Please!!! Do not go there!

Or is that pronunciation: "Gehn'-ee-oose Low'-key"???

Any Latin pronunciators here?

The modern 400/395 Nitro Express AKA 10.03x74R. 12" twist barrel and HIGH TECH monometals and cast lead of 340-to-400-grains, and LOW TECH B-Max resized pistol bullets and Hawks and such of 200-to-300-grains.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Really. I want one.
400 Nitro For Blackpowder (3"): .395 caliber 230-grain lead bullet, 47 grains cordite, 2050 fps, 2150 fpe.

A Martini-actioned single shot in the same caliber is also on the wish list.

Not a 400 Purdey with .405 bullets of same ballistics. No sir. Gotta be .395 caliber.

Some day I might get lucky.

RIP how about this one?:





scroll down to item No 640

LINCOLN JEFFRIES .400 BLACK POWDER EXPRESS ROTARY-UNDERLEVER DOUBLE HAMMER RIFLE - however somebody SMOOTH BORED it TO .410 CALIBRE

P.S. In Latin "genius" is pronounced with "g" as ground and loci as "lotsee"

mouse93,
Thanks for that. That is the sort of gun I am looking for. Was it a .395 or a .40X before being rebored to .410 smooth? That would take Sherlock Holmes to find out, eh?

Former "400 BPE" Lincoln Jeffries, now a .410 shotgun, weighing 7lbs.12oz. with 25-3/4" barrels:


I did scan through the DR's and noted #406 which they called:

Westley Richards & Co. ".400 H.V. Nitro Express" boxlock, nonejector ... 60-grains cordite and 400-grain bullet ... could be either a 450/400 3" or 3-1/4" in .408 caliber for all I know. 11lbs.0oz. with 26" barrels:


They were crazy with the aliases and the bore sizes.

Can you get the barrels re-lined and rejouvinated/revirginized to 395??????

It is done for shotguns so I dont see why not.

Sounds like a monobloc with new barrels needed to me. At that weight the barrels are too thin to sleeve all the way out to the dainty muzzles.

I'd be looking for twin No.4 Douglas sporter contours and some lead in the butt to balance it, for the 400/395 Nitro Express Mega-Mite.