quote:

Will,

I think you over estimate the time it takes to reload a double rifle, especially if you limit the reload to one round. And you under estimate the time to cycle the bolt on a bolt rifle and to reaquire the target. Remember no matter what the proponents of cycling the bolt at your shoulder will argue, there is more displacement from cycling the bolt - both bolt and double from recoil, only the bolt from cycling and cycling doesn't occur entirely simultaneously with recoil. Also recall that Richard Harland advocates cycling the bolt off shoulder to enhance situational awareness to prevent beng blindsided.

I think Taylor's comment, which applied only to the thickest bush, iirc, was more an indication of how fast a single cartridge reload is in a double than an intentional or unintensional admission of a shortcoming for the DR.

Edit: And what Surestrike said too!

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
You are in a state of denial!

All you have to do is look at Chris Sell's videos (www.heymusa.com) to see the appalling limitation of trying to get off more than 2 rounds from a DR.

Monty Kalogeras (Safari Shooting School) told me in Dallas that it was he doing the shooting in the videos. Monty can shoot!

DR's and bolts each have their advantages. But like I said in that African Hunter article, I just hope I have the best one in my hands when those different advantageous situations arise.

Both sides of this issue, have some merit, but both sides are more than anything useing their own ability with one over the other! This only proves each of you is better with one than with the other.

The example of the shooting on Chris Sells web-site is flawed in that though Monty is a very good shot, and is deffinently fast with his bolt rifle, he makes one real mistake when shooting a double rifle for fast reloads. Like many here, he reloads the double from a culling belt, and that is absolutely the slowest way to reload a double rifle. Lowering the double rifle, and digging the two rounds, or even only one, out of a belt takes too much time, and before the first shot is fired on a dangerous animal, the rounds should be in your fore hand,between the fore, and middle fingers, side by side, not in a belt.

Monty is a bolt rifle man, and Damn good with it, but is simply not as effecient with a double rifle, as with his bolt 404Jeff! That fact doesn't mean the double is slower to reload than the bolt rifle simply because Monty can't do it as fast. I have little doubt that Monty, given the amount of practice with a well fit double, and proper reload practice, would be deadly fast with a double rifle sas well.

I find that most slow loaders of doubles tend to load with the right hand,and from a belt, or buttstock cartridge carrier, for a right handed shooter! This is backwards, and though some get real fast this way,like Tony, if they spent as much time loading with the other hand they would cut their reload time in half.

The trigger hand should never leave the grip, and trigger bow, while reloading, with the rifle broken at the top of the recoil rise, letting you keep your eyes on the target, while slipping two more rounds into the chambers similtaniously, and closeing the rifle on the way back to the shooter's shoulder, the third shot can be fired as soon as the butt touches the shoulder, with the fourth soon as you can move your finger.

This however, was not the origenal question! A double rifle that is well made, and is loaded properly with a load that regulates, is no more inaccurate than a like loaded single barrel, given the same quality of sighting equipment. As Tony says, if a good double with good iron sights is paired with a single barrel rifle with the same sights, the only difference between them is the shooter, and the same goes for a single, and double fitted with scopes as well. The failier is not in the rifle, but in the person useing the rifle!

Might want to check the videos again - I believe the double shooter - whoever it was - was wearing gloves. Add digging rounds out of a cartridge belt to the equation, and it's not going to be a fair comparison.

Of course, if the shooter were from Kansas, used a double with only one trigger and wore sandals, the results would have certainly been different. Do the sandals allow you to keep cartridges between your toes for fast reloading?

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Manion:
Might want to check the videos again - I believe the double shooter - whoever it was - was wearing gloves. Add digging rounds out of a cartridge belt to the equation, and it's not going to be a fair comparison.

Of course, if the shooter were from Kansas, used a double with only one trigger and wore sandals, the results would have certainly been different. Do the sandals allow you to keep cartridges between your toes for fast reloading?

I haven't ever used the toe carry, as the butt crack carry is really fast.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Manion:
Might want to check the videos again - I believe the double shooter - whoever it was - was wearing gloves. Add digging rounds out of a cartridge belt to the equation, and it's not going to be a fair comparison.

Of course, if the shooter were from Kansas, used a double with only one trigger and wore sandals, the results would have certainly been different. Do the sandals allow you to keep cartridges between your toes for fast reloading?

I haven't ever used the toe carry, as the butt crack carry is really fast.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Manion:
Might want to check the videos again - I believe the double shooter - whoever it was - was wearing gloves. Add digging rounds out of a cartridge belt to the equation, and it's not going to be a fair comparison.

Of course, if the shooter were from Kansas, used a double with only one trigger and wore sandals, the results would have certainly been different. Do the sandals allow you to keep cartridges between your toes for fast reloading?

I haven't ever used the toe carry, as the butt crack carry is really fast.

I would have thought that the sweat in your butt crack would make the shells slippery?

Do you use talcum powder to keep them from slipping down or just walk around with your cheeks flexed?

Talcum powder? That's for amateurs. Now a rosin bag, that's the way to go!

"the butt crack carry is really fast."
What about thosw who cant find there butt????
Bill

If you use the butt carry, you won't have to worry about the trackers stealing your empty cases.

465H&H

Before some of you get too serious about this "thang", I think its pretty common knowledge that the double will give you two quick shots, and its feasible that it could save your bacon I suppose..but the original question was which was the more accurate, and I have not seen any doubles beat the bolt guns at any national matches over the years...

Like I said, I love doubles and I have used them on DG about as much as anyone, but I don't believe that I'm doomed to death and destruction if I use a bolt rifle and I have used them plenty..I use a double because I love to hunt with them, and that is the only reason, and I dont' try and justify it with BS, although after paying out the yeng yang for one, I am tempted to try and justify them, but hey it ain't so!

Elephants. This is the one game animal where the double is the prefect weapon and heads and shoulders better than any other choice.

JPK

I guess it all boils down to this. Doubles are not as inaccurate as some try to make out and bolts aren't as slow as some try to make out.

How many iron sighted heavy bolt rifles have you seen at the National match shoots?

Just curios and trying to compare apples to apples.

The bolt action potentially has the capability of being much more accurate than the double rifle. Bench rest shooters (the gurus of rifle accuracy) use bolt rifles almost exclusively. They have massively heavy barrels and stocks and rigid single shot actions. They are useless for hunting except maybe for prairie dogs or ground squirrels. I have never heard of a bench rest shooter using a double.

By contrast the double is by definition less accurate. You have two barrels and getting two barrels to have equal accuracy is largely a matter of luck. They may require two different loads to get the best accuracy from each which makes them less than useless for hunting. In addition doubles are regulated so that the barrels do not shoot to the same point of impact with each barrel but about the width apart of the center of the bores. That means about 3/4 to 1" apart depending on caliber. That way they don't cross or diverge out to any useful range.

A double with good barrels that is well regulated will give you all the accuracy you need for hunting purposes. Esp. for dangerous game taken up close.

465H&H

At the houston big bore shoot, we saw that there was little functional difference in RESULTS (not accuracy) between scoped turnbolts and scoped doubles within 50 yards.. The largest difference appeared to be the shooters personal experience and skill, and the rifle had little to do with

R E S U L T S

lets face it, within 50 yards, a 5 MOA rifle puts bullets 2.5" appart ... BFD on a buffalo, and tough to beat, OFF HAND, with a 1/2 MOA bigbore rifle of the same bore diameter...

If one defines a 3" circle at 50 yards as acceptable, then it's about the shooter, not the rifle

There is only one way to end this. At the next shoot and hoot we will need a team event. The turnbolts vs the SXS. Full power hunting loads,time d for full course of fire. Points /time with deductions for getting stomped ( Missing or non -lethal hits)

JD

quote:

I haven't ever used the toe carry, as the butt crack carry is really fast.

No experience here, but I'd imagine during a charge, the "Pucker" factor could be the cause of extraction issues...

quote:

Originally posted by Collins:

quote:

I haven't ever used the toe carry, as the butt crack carry is really fast.

No experience here, but I'd imagine during a charge, the "Pucker" factor could be the cause of extraction issues...

Collins,

Your post is responsible for the cofee on my key board, the result of LMAO!

JPK