Before I retired, as part of my job I was required to "qualify" with a 458 Win Mag Bolt Rifle.

The course of fire was determined by the State Standards, for Law Enforcement use of a Rifle.

We fired:
5 rounds standing at 50 yards, iron sights.
5 rounds kneeling at 75 yards, iron sights.
5 rounds sitting at 75 yards, scope.
5 rounds sitting, 458, [or prone for the 375 H&H shooters], scoped at 100 yards.

No artificial support, benches, etc.

I also shot this course many times with my
iron sighted 450 No2 Double Rifle.

If you were to look at both targets, you could not tell which was fired from which rifle.

I have not noticed any difference in field accuracy between iron sighted Doubles vs. iron sighted Bolt Rifles, or scope sighted Doubles vs. scope sighted Bolt rifles.

My experience has been the same.

With iron sights there is no difference in accuracy between a heavy bolt gun and a heavy double.

With scopes it is the same.

In fact my iron sighted double shoots tighter or as tight of a group off the bench than any iron sighted bolt gun I've ever owned and that is out to 100 yards.

Within practical heavy rifle range there is no discernible difference between a properly regulated heavy double and a heavy bolt gun of equal power.

The myth that bolt guns are inherently more accurate than doubles is yet another old wives tale that should be dismissed right here and right now.

Anybody who's taken the time and the effort to become proficient with a double knows better.

This klippy though he was safe from a double rifle with open sights, and he was wrong!



I shoot my double rifle better becuaase I favor the balance over my bolt rifles with scopes. But for the longer ranges, I need a better rest than sitting or kneeling and a bit of magnification is welcome.

JPK

JPK

"for the longer ranges..."

That is what the scoped smaller bore double rifles are for.

As well as you handle a big bore double, your 458, a scoped double in 9,3x74R to 375, would make you a great pair.

surestrike

I have seen your double rifle shooting results as well, and I will say Well Done.

Those of us that have taken the time and energy to develop loads for our doubles, shoot them enough to become proficient with them, realize that they are great hunting rifles, better for 80% of most hunting situations vs bolt rifles.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
JPK

"for the longer ranges..."

That is what the scoped smaller bore double rifles are for.

As well as you handle a big bore double, your 458, a scoped double in 9,3x74R to 375, would make you a great pair.

450NE No2,

I fell victim to you prostilitizing and bought a 375H&H double rifle. It is being "converted" to left handed as I write. Need to order some Woodleighs. Hopefully it'll be equiped with Joe Smithson bases and rings, which are very low profile.

Bought the scope too, an S&B just like the one you keep preaching about! No more Swarovski for me - since I left the friggin' battery at home last trip. Gotta love the three turret design, even I can't leave it or loose it.

The rifle weighs in at 8lbs 10oz but will loose a couple of ounces from loosing the righty cheekpiece and having the butt hollowed out some. This rifle has 24" barrels, which are ok but 26" would have been perfect.

JPK

JPK
My 9,3 has 24"bbls, handles fine.
Your 375 at 8lbs 10 oz will be sweet to shoot.

With a scope, it will do everything a scoped bolt 375 will do, with ALL the advantages of a double rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
450 Win Mag Bolt Rifle

I assume that you mean 458 WM?

It appears that in your eyes a double can do no wrong! If you have a DR that shoots small groups out of a single barrel (or both barrels give good groups), why should it be any different than a similar bolt-action?

The accuracy of shooting with open sights, at paper targets, is more a function of ones eyesight I would imagine than anything else. That's why I call 25 yards my general limit. But if you can see well further, more power to you but it does not seem to be a DR issue to me.

To the best of my recollection, one of the few, if not the only, time that ol' John Taylor conceded that a magazine rifle was better than a double was when he had a flashlight taped to the barrel for shooting lions at night. With a bolt action one could keep the light on the lions while if reloading a DR the barrels would have to move and hence loose sight of the lions.

IMO, there are a couple benefits of shooting a DR that cannot be accomplished with a bolt and a benefit of shooting a bolt that cannot be accomplished with a DR.

The couple benefits of a DR are 1) in a real charge when a quick second shot "may" be needed, and 2) if the critter is fleeing a quick follow-up shot. Other than that they are slow to reload and it is my contention that essentially they are just a 2-shot operation and then it is basically over ... unless there is enough time to reload, which admittedly there are times when it is possible.

The benefit of a bolt action is firepower. I have been in a situation where five of the six rounds were needed in quick succession. And even at that I would have been squished had it not been for both the PH and game scout. I can envision other similar situations where a DR just wouldn't cut it. It is the reason why John Taylor advised only shooting a single round in a DR before reloading. He was admitting the limitation of a DR, though possibly not consciously.

Let the age-old arguments continue!

Will,

I agree with your comments towards both platforms. Each has it's advantages and disadvantages. I shoot both.

There is one exception I'd like to make which is speed and handling ability. There is no bolt action ever built that comes into action as fast or as smoothly as properly a fit double gun. There is simply no comparison between a bolt and a double in this department. When I've been spending a lot of time in the field with a double and then switch back to a bolt the slowness and clumsiness of a bolt becomes blatantly apparent. They simply do not handle anywhere near as nicely as double.

However the thread is written in regards to accuracy not usability. The authors point being that a double when properly built is as accurate as a bolt gun. And he is correct in that statement.

quote:

It is the reason why John Taylor advised only shooting a single round in a DR before reloading. He was admitting the limitation of a DR, though possibly not consciously.

Will,

I think you over estimate the time it takes to reload a double rifle, especially if you limit the reload to one round. And you under estimate the time to cycle the bolt on a bolt rifle and to reaquire the target. Remember no matter what the proponents of cycling the bolt at your shoulder will argue, there is more displacement from cycling the bolt - both bolt and double from recoil, only the bolt from cycling and cycling doesn't occur entirely simultaneously with recoil. Also recall that Richard Harland advocates cycling the bolt off shoulder to enhance situational awareness to prevent beng blindsided.

I think Taylor's comment, which applied only to the thickest bush, iirc, was more an indication of how fast a single cartridge reload is in a double than an intentional or unintensional admission of a shortcoming for the DR.

Edit: And what Surestrike said too!

JPK

You are in a state of denial!

All you have to do is look at Chris Sell's videos (www.heymusa.com) to see the appalling limitation of trying to get off more than 2 rounds from a DR.

Monty Kalogeras (Safari Shooting School) told me in Dallas that it was he doing the shooting in the videos. Monty can shoot!

DR's and bolts each have their advantages. But like I said in that African Hunter article, I just hope I have the best one in my hands when those different advantageous situations arise.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Will:
[
To the best of my recollection, one of the few, if not the only, time that ol' John Taylor conceded that a magazine rifle was better than a double was when he had a flashlight taped to the barrel for shooting lions at night. With a bolt action one could keep the light on the lions while if reloading a DR the barrels would have to move and hence loose sight of the lions.



It is my recolection that Taylor recommended only using one barrel before reloading the second barrel, was in thick Jesse you never know if another elephant is very close to you on the other side of a bush and the next thing you know you have an elephant head and trunk over your head. Then you can stop the reloading sequence and close the action to take the life saving shot. He also liked the bolt action 416 Rigby for the occasional long shot at a bull elephant on the other side of a herd. But it was primarily due to it having a peep sight on the end of the bolt. He felt he was more accurate with the peep at longer distances.

I also think you over estimate the length of time it takes to reload a double. It really depends on the amount of skill the shooter has with his weapon. I have been pleasantly surprised at how quickly I am able to make a reload with my doubles in a stress situation. In my experience when a shot is fired the target elephant (except in a charge)is halted for a few seconds while he tries to figure out what is happening and what to do about it. Both times that I was charged by "the other" elephant after shooting another from the herd, the charge did not occur for a feew seconds after the initial shot and I had plenty of time to reload either a double or a bolt rifle.

465H&H

quote:

Both times that I was charged by "the other" elephant after shooting another from the herd, the charge did not occur for a feew seconds after the initial shot and I had plenty of time to reload either a double or a bolt rifle.

I've never had a second elephant carry home a charge after I'd shot another from the herd. But I've had a bunch of bluffs after shooting the first, and they all materialize just as 465H&H says, with a moment or two's delay, allowing plenty of time for a reload.

JPK

A double reload in an emergency is much a matter of practice. Training will take over in a stress situation.

If you don't train correctly you won't respond correctly.

Much like Will's article in African hunter where he admits that he can't use a double trigger gun.

It's simply a matter of the correct type of training. If you aren't willing to put in the time and effort don't hunt DG with the rifle. But to blame the platform rather than the user is simply intellectually dishonest.

JPK,
You rascal, where did you find the 375? Pictures, Pictures!
As far as the double bolt issue, it's fun because it's an emotional issue, please continue on.

I own both, big bore bolts and doubles and Will has the only logical response that I fully agree with, "hope I'm carrying the right one at the right time."

I will say this, when you are moving-running after game you have just shot, or moving away from critters that want a poke at you, you can reload a bolt a whole lot quicker on the run than you can a double. Try it, no comparison. I am Lt. handed and using my Rt. hand to grab around the action plus pushing the rounds in I can do it on a dead run WITHOUT LOOKING, I cannot do that with a DR even though I love those twin barrels.

Dirk,

I'll bet that I can teach you how to reload on the move with a double.

By gully surestrike, we live too close together to not get together and shoot some. I'm always game to learn a new trick or two. If I need to go to the front range sometime or your over in this neck of the woods look me up.

I just love these arguments.

"But I can reload my double faster than a bolt, especially when I am riding a Ferris wheel. Or when under water."

The point I'm trying to make is that if more than two shots are needed, in rapid succession, such as trying to ding a fleeing buff before it disappears into the bush, a DR is just too slow.

Now you can pretend that the buff is going to circle back around to give you more time to reload your DR, but wouldn't count on it. Well, I actually had a buff do that one time, but that's irrelevant.

Show me the video!

Will,

Why don't you come out to one of Butch Searcy's double rifle competitions one of these days and you can see for yourself. We don't do ferris wheel reloads or underwater reloads but we do reload on the move. You might just learn a thing or two, if that's possible.

That is if you think you can play well with others for a day?

I agree that a bolt gun is a better platform in the situation you mentioned above. No two ways about it.
-----------------------------------------------

Dirk,

I'd enjoy doing some shooting. I replied to your PM with my contact information.

I think this is all a matter of preference! If you don't use one system well, and are not willing to put in the time to become proficient with one type or another, then use what you want!

Simply because one person can't use a particular platform well, has no effect on other's ability to use them properly! Allen Day said it best when someone suggested he get himself a double rifle! He said, "I do well with the rifles I shoot, and have never seen a need to change to anything else. That said, I'm not willing to put in the time and effort to become proficient with a double rifle."

It seems to me, most who mouth the shortcomings of a double rifle fit into Allen Day's situation, but because they can't use a double rifle properly, and efficiently, they seem to think it is impossible for anyone else to do it as well!

As some one above said, I also use all types of big bore rifles, and I don't seem to be handicapped in the efficiency department no matter which type I'm using at the time! As Surestrike says, it is all a matter of proper commitment to learn, nothing more! Certainly it easier to always jump to what you have already learned, than to put in the time, to learn something new, to you! There are some things that have mechanical draw backs, that practice will not over come, but as long as the platform doesn't have built in traps, it can be learned, if the commitment is there!

My problem is that I see the beauty in many types of rifles so I feel the need to have them all and it becomes hard to choose wich rifle I'll take on the next hunt.
Each type has some advantage but simple comments like the word accuracy don't even start to address the value of one type over the other in real hunting situations.

My .338 double rifle will shoot a groupe from a cold barrel as tight as ether of my bolt action .338's. will it shoot a ten shot string with a hot barrel as tight as the bolt guns of? course not.

I killed my first deer in 1972 with a Ruger blackhawk .357. I shot a couple hundred more head of big game before I got my first double rifle in 95.

Of all the differant systems I've used over the years I think the only one I'll really place a blame on for any loss of game would be a rifle with a mannlicher stock. These little carbines are very sexy and I realy like the lines and handle abilety but I've had some real bad expireances.

N.E. 450 #2 likes his Blaser k95 stutzen and says it maintains P.O.I. 100%. I'm sure this is true because that long stock is split in the middle of the forearm and between the buttstock and reciver.
I'll buy a k95 or Merkel K1 soon. I'd like to get the short stutzen but it's hard to overcome the bad expireances of the past

Will!

My friend, you might want to look at those Heym videos again if you are using them to make up your mind on whether a double can be reloaded quick enough. I just looked at them and two things stood out in my mind. The first was that the shooter did not even try to reload the double on the charging buff head. He took his time with both shots. When using the bolt he fired the first shot even before the target started moving and took little time to aim each shot. He could only have had a flash sight picture at best. Without seeing where the bullets hit the videos are meaningless. I'm sure you will agree that one or two 470 bullets through the brain are better than four fast 404s that miss the brain. Also if I good Double shooter had tried I'm sure he could get two shots off before the head had moved more than a couple of feet and may have had time to reload and fire two more quickies when the target was almost on top of him. But I do think two aimed shots are much better.

465H&H

I think a bolt rifle for the most part is the more accurate of the two under most circumstances.

That said, I love a double rifle and all mine have been more than accurate enough, and I suspect up to 75 yards you would be hard pressed to tell much difference, as the range extends the bolt gun will rule with irons or scope...

Lets be realistic, this is a double gun thread and predjudice reigns here, but in the real world, any African hunter knows there is a differnce and the plus goes to the bolt action.

The double is for the short rows, where the shots must be fast and spot on, and it cannot be beat for it was designed for..

quote:

predjudice reigns here

But Daddy, Daddy, say it ain't so.

Ray!

But it is the "short rows" that get you killed! They can't kill you from 100 yards away.


465H&H

Akshooter

That little "side twister" 7x57 is about as sweet as a single shot as it gets.

You should post some pictures of it

For most hunting, I have just found the 2 quick shots of a double rifle "more better" than the 3 or 4 rounds in a bolt rifle.

Even when the animal is not charging, I find I have the oppertunity to get two well aimed shots off with a double, where I would only get one off with the bolt rifle.

Then you reload, follow up, and when you see the anmal you AGAIN have the two quick shots.

One might say that if you shoot real good, then additional shots are not necessary, but many times large animals especialy buff can take a big calibre soft through the heart and stay on their feet for a while.

quote:

Originally posted by Akshooter:
My .338 double rifle will shoot a groupe from a cold barrel as tight as ether of my bolt action .338's.

Akshooter, what .338 double do you have? I haven't seen a lot of doubles in any of the .338 calibers.

quote:

Originally posted by dirklawyer:
JPK,
You rascal, where did you find the 375? Pictures, Pictures!
As far as the double bolt issue, it's fun because it's an emotional issue, please continue on.

I own both, big bore bolts and doubles and Will has the only logical response that I fully agree with, "hope I'm carrying the right one at the right time."

I will say this, when you are moving-running after game you have just shot, or moving away from critters that want a poke at you, you can reload a bolt a whole lot quicker on the run than you can a double. Try it, no comparison. I am Lt. handed and using my Rt. hand to grab around the action plus pushing the rounds in I can do it on a dead run without looking, I cannot do that with a DR even though I love those twin barrels.

Dirk,

I found a mint 375H&H A&S Farmars sidelock looking for a home at the vintagers, for sale by DeWings from Florida. It didn't make it back to Florida. It is at the gunsmith's being converted for this lefty. I'll post photos when I can.

I find loading a double rifle - or shotgun - on the move really easy. Open the rifle - with ejectors the cases are gone now, with extractor get rid of them as you normally would - and hold at the break with your right hand with the barrels pointing down and right - for us lefties - thumb over the ejectors or extractors. Load one barrel and then the other. For a rimless belted cartridge you don't need to hold the cartridge in the barrrel, the pawl takes care of that, for a rimmed round your thumb hold it in place as you run. Close rifle, mount when required...

JPK

Will,

From first photo to last photo four rounds fired. The first and second reloads were single round reloads because I needed one round NOW for the first reload when the elephant was but eight or nine yards away. The elephant is barely or not visible in the last photo in which I'm lowing my rifle, but the last round fired went the length of the left lung from behind the ribs to the front of the chest just to the left of center.

Range was seven yards from first shot, when she was at full steam to 25 or 30yds when she was out of sight.


[image]http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c341/Nilrik/002_P1220472.jpg[/image]


[image]http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c341/Nilrik/000_P12204762-1.jpg[/image]

Every shot hit where I wanted it to, missed the brain low on the first two, but stopped her!

Edit: Crap, the photo transplant didn't work. I'll redo the photos when I get home tonight.

Here they are:




JPK

JPK where is the Ele from. Looks like north of the Selous above K1 in the Gonabasi(sp).

JohnAir

I will let Akshooter give the details on his 338 Win Mag double, but I can say I have shot it and it shoots very good and is a real nice double. It handles very well.

JohnAir
It was build by Franz Sodia. I've seen other double .338's built in Ferlach but .375 and 9.3's are more common as is every where else

Akshooter,
That must be one sweet double. Congrats.

quote:

Originally posted by .500Pro:
JPK where is the Ele from. Looks like north of the Selous above K1 in the Gonabasi(sp).

This elephant was from the Save Conservancy in Zimbabwe. She charged on sight from 25yds. ALL of the elephants in the Save are nasty and hyper agressive. And the cover is THICK along the rivers. This ele was killed the third week of October, 2006, which was the hieght of dry season.

JPK

Will, Thanks I did mean 458, I corrected the typo.

JohnAir

AKShooters 338 double is truely very nice. If all the doubles I have handled it rates up there with the best of them.

JPK nice shooting on the "little one".

You are really going to like you scoped 375.

Re. Elephants in the SAVE.

They are the most agressive of any of the elephants I have hunted.

In the area I hunted on my last 2 safaris there was a herd that the PH called the "Psycotic 60"

There was 60 of them. We had many a close call with them.

It was most fun.

A double is as accurate and as fast to fire four rounds (not to mention five or six) as a bolt action? Or if not as fast, then not appreciably slower? A bolt action is appreciably slower to the shoulder than a double and not significantly faster to fire four, five or six rounds in succession?

Except for Will's contributions, this thread gives new meaning to the phrases "preaching to the choir" and "drinking the Kool-Aid."

A double has its place, no doubt, but that place is the fast firing of two shots at close range and that is it, finito.

I agree, let the age old arguments continue, but one ought not seek to prove too much - even credulity ought to have its limits.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Will, Thanks I did mean 458, I corrected the typo.

JohnAir

AKShooters 338 double is truely very nice. If all the doubles I have handled it rates up there with the best of them.

How I wish they made double rifles in .338x74R Keith.

One could always get a 416 Blaser and have speed, accuracy and three rounds.

Hello NE 450 NO.2,
Noticed your qualification program and curious as to what the accuracy std. was for such qualifications?? Did you have to attain a certain percentage out of a possible score, hit the target, timed fire, etc. Glad to see that there was no support as bench, sticks, etc. Could you use the std. military style rifle sling? Would be an interesting approach with club I belong to and might want to introduce similar practices. We shoot charging animals on cable driven targets, but not in different positions which is actually more realistic I believe. All shots in the field are not always available with upright, straight forward offhand shooting and like the idea of the position shooting. Similar to Across the Course Match style. We do have those with doubles and magazine rifles so by doing the above, we could create our own tests.