The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Double Rifles double rifle or bolt rifle for dangerous game?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| double rifle or bolt rifle for dangerous game? | Login/Join |
one of us |
This si most likely available from Heym but I copied this from a thread on NE website. Hope it works! nitroexpress.info/ezine/Videos/HEYMIvanCarterDoubleRifles/HEYMIvanCarterDoubleBoltActionRifle.wmv ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | ||
|
| One of Us |
When things get that up close and personal, there is no better option then a big bore double! 465H&H | |||
|
| one of us |
..............And when hunting in country where dangerous game lives you never know when things will get THAT CLOSE! ................................................................  ............  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
|
| one of us |
I had this discussion with my PH Blake while in the Land Cruiser during my past hunt.I mentioned that the double might be quicker and then we looked at recoil recovery time and how a bolt can be cycled during that time.A bolt can be fired very fast at close quarters.The video above is unfair to bolt rifles-I suspect it is purposely done so.There is one scene where a scoped bolt is used to shoot at a target from a distance and another elephant charge scene,with a double, that seems sped up.If one is within 20 yds of his game with a bolt and has decided to shoot two quick shots,it can be done really fast.Could it be done as fast as a double? Possibly,IMO.Here is a clip of a 308 at 20yds. [URL=  ]20yds-bolt[/URL] | |||
|
| one of us |
The fellow who shot his first elephant with a double .After the first [and second] shot his rifle was pointed at a rather high angle .Was he leaning forward as he should have ,it's hard to see ?? At that high an angle he had some time to take to bring it down and aim again. If not a position problem would a lesser recoiling gun be a better choice ? Not leaning for the first shot would also put you off balance for the second . | |||
|
| One of Us |
why don't we see more people hunting birds with a bolt shotgun?  | |||
|
One of Us |
What's a bolt rifle? Cal _______________________________ Cal Pappas, Willow, Alaska www.CalPappas.com www.CalPappas.blogspot.com 1994 Zimbabwe 1997 Zimbabwe 1998 Zimbabwe 1999 Zimbabwe 1999 Namibia, Botswana, Zambia--vacation 2000 Australia 2002 South Africa 2003 South Africa 2003 Zimbabwe 2005 South Africa 2005 Zimbabwe 2006 Tanzania 2006 Zimbabwe--vacation 2007 Zimbabwe--vacation 2008 Zimbabwe 2012 Australia 2013 South Africa 2013 Zimbabwe 2013 Australia 2016 Zimbabwe 2017 Zimbabwe 2018 South Africa 2018 Zimbabwe--vacation 2019 South Africa 2019 Botswana 2019 Zimbabwe vacation 2021 South Africa 2021 South Africa (2nd hunt a month later) ______________________________ | |||
|
| new member |
In my opinion bolt actions are inferior to a fine double rifle for Dangerous game. As one of us pointed out, how many bolts do you encounter in wingshooting? All that being said, I prefer ejectors on all my 2 barrel guns. | |||
|
One of Us |
It's a double for me. Thank you very much. Shoots, I've spoken with Blake often about the bolt / double debate. In fact, I'll be hunting with him again in about 2 weeks. He agreed that I should bring both of my doubles on this trip and leave the bolt trash at home! Hopefully, Blake and I will have some nice pictures in a few weeks time to post here as a result of those 2 double rifles. I have to take a bit of issue with the recoil recovery time comments. Ray Atkinson has gone on and on in the past about how nothing over a .40 cal can be brought back on target accurately on DG. I reposted the first Elephant Cow hunt clip that I put on AR here after hearing that comment from him. In that clip, I was shooting a 500NE. The first shot was a bit low and left as she moved just as I fired. However, it knocked her down causing her to sit on her butt while turning to her left exposing the right shoulder. WHILE SHE WAS DROPPING FROM THE FIRST SHOT, I fired the second barrel into her shoulder and took out the heart. Again with a 500NE, which is a bit of a heavy recoiling round. There is NO way that second heart shot could have been pulled off with a bolt rifle while she was still falling from the first shot. The facts are that there are some situations where a bolt rifle is the better choice and some where the double is the better choice. The problem is that one never really knows which situation he will be faced with on any particular day concerning rifle action choice. I do believe however, that a hunt can be conducted in such a way as to make one action type more appropriate than the other. I think tackling DG in the thick stuff up close and personal lends itself better to the DR and that is the way I prefer to hunt. | |||
|
| One of Us |
 how many times are we going to | |||
|
One of Us |
So, which IS better?     ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition” ― Rudyard Kipling | |||
|
| one of us |
I agree! There is no reason to beat a dead horse on this subject! Just accept the fact that in close quarters nothing is as fast or as reliable as a double rifle for the first two shots, and I wouldn't take a bet, if I were you, that a good bolt man would beat me for four shots all on target at under 25 yds. Several have tried it and came up short! So if that horse in running at me from 25 yards you will not have to beat him, just skin him out! If you think this is bold talk lets get on the range and we will see! However, no matter how fast you are if the rounds don't hit the right place all is for naught! If a shooter can't get off four shots in under four seconds, and place all of the shots in the kill/stop zone at under 25 yards with his bolt rifle he will loose to a good man with a double rifle! .................................................................. ................... ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
|
One of Us |
The horse is dead, but the fact remains; a DR will always be faster unless you are slow on target re-acquisition from recoil of your 8 bore. But of course, one would be equally as slow with a bolt in the same caliber wouldn't one? Bolt action (read any magazine rifle) sporting rifles were invented so the commoners could have something to hunt with. The sporting gentleman of the 19th and early 20th century would not be caught dead in the field with one of the infernal contraptions. Off the rack! Horrors. | |||
|
one of us |
Ray should watch Mr. Jines shoot his .500 and then see if he want's to change his opinion. Speaking of opinions, I have an opinion on a lot of stuff that Ray writes on the internet. Elephant Hunter, Double Rifle Shooter Society, NRA Lifetime Member, Ten Safaris, in RSA, Namibia, Zimbabwe | |||
|
| One of Us |
A really fast bolt guy can probably get off two shots nearly as fast as a double guy BUT the double guys two shots will be much more accurate as he has more time to align the sights. 465H&H | |||
|
| One of Us |
Yep, on all accounts!!  | |||
|
One of Us |
Todd: I think a bolt gun paired with a large caliber double is the best of all worlds. Let the tracker carry your bolt gun, a 9,3 or .375 and use it for your longish shots. You carry the double when hunting elephant, when you can get close to your buffalo, or in case of a unexpected close encounter. Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
|
One of Us |
Yes, you should watch Mr. Jines and any one else proficient in the use of a double rifle. Double wins every time. Rusty We Band of Brothers! DRSS, NRA & SCI Life Member "I am rejoiced at my fate. Do not be uneasy about me, for I am with my friends." ----- David Crockett in his last letter (to his children), January 9th, 1836 "I will never forsake Texas and her cause. I am her son." ----- Jose Antonio Navarro, from Mexican Prison in 1841 "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson Declaration of Arbroath April 6, 1320-“. . .It is not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.” | |||
|
| One of Us |
Ahh Dave, but now I'm thinking a scoped small double like the 9.3 paired with the larger hammer. That's what's going with this trip! | |||
|
One of Us |
Todd Williams- PM inbound to you. Mike ______________ DSC DRSS (again) SCI Life NRA Life Sables Life Mzuri IPHA "To be a Marine is enough." | |||
|
| One of Us |
Got it Mike. Several PMs sent back to ya! Found what you were looking for! Enjoy!! | |||
|
One of Us |
Doubles are faster to two. But bolt guns have three, four, and sometimes 5. Having shot a charging bear, while I'm comfortable enough with a double to hunt one, I think I'd still probably opt for one of my bolt guns if I intended to get to contact distance with a angry animal. Only Angels and Aviators have wings | |||
|
| One of Us |
The problem, as I see it, is that at "contact distance" a bolt gun becomes a single shot, whereas a DR is still a two shot. At least that's been my experience, and I'm pretty damned good with a bolt action. Mike ______________ DSC DRSS (again) SCI Life NRA Life Sables Life Mzuri IPHA "To be a Marine is enough." | |||
|
| One of Us |
Excellent point! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition” ― Rudyard Kipling | |||
|
| One of Us |
That is the formula I use when hunting buffalo. The scoped rifle will get you around 40% more shots over a double only. You still have the double for the close in shots and any needed wounded animal folow ups. For elephant I prefer two big bores, both with open sights. Need two big bores in case something happens to one of them. 465H&H | |||
|
| One of Us |
Possibly. But I think if you're so close you can't get a second shot off with a bolt, chances of getting a second shot off with a large caliber double are also fairly slim.... Only Angels and Aviators have wings | |||
|
| one of us |
Are you sugesting that the bolt rifle would not be a large chambering as well?  Come on guy,the larger the rifle the slower the bolt rifle is to get off a quick shot number two, and in every one of the examples in that clip they were that close, and there would not have been time to get off a second shot with a bolt rifle, but every one got of the second shot with the double rifle. I would say most of those doubles were 470NE, 500NE or larger. I think most would call those big bore doubles,don't you?  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
|
| one of us |
The video was made to sell more Heym doubles.Do you think they would show bolt factory rifles shooting as fast as anything? | |||
|
| One of Us |
Sorry but I have to strongly disagree with this statement. Too much video evidence and some personal experience to the contrary. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Heym also makes bolt rifles. Are you saying they are sabotaging sales of their bolt guns? | |||
|
| one of us |
Shootaway,that film would apply to any double rifle, and I doubt any of the client doubles were Heyms! Ivan does state his preference for Heym doubles but he makes it plain in the film that this applies to all double rifles in general. They couldn't have shown a bolt rifle doing better than the double rifles in that clip! If you doubt what I say here, we have a little thing called a "HOOT & SHOOT" down at Julif, Texas where doubles and bolt rifles are timed and scored all shooting at one time, for time and hits and not one bolt rifle has ever won that shoot. This is not just two shots but four shots and the doubles still beat the bolt rifle for four shots, even with the doubles having to reload for the third and fourth shots, with the bolt guys only having to work the bolt three times starting with all four rounds in the rifle. Any shot that misses the black in not counted, even though that shot would still be in the kill zone of a buffalo or close to the brain of an elephant. No matter how fast you are with any rifle shots that don't hit properly are automaticlly discounted by the animal. . The targets are 8 inch black with a 2 inch white ten ring in the middle, a 4 inch 9 ring, and a 6 inch 8 ring, and the 8 inch 7 ring. The shooting starts with the bolt rifles loaded with all four rounds, one in the chamber and three down, and the double rifles loaded barrels having to reload shots three and four in the middle of the shoot. Each shooter is individually timed with a digital stop watch, starting when the first shot is fired, and stopped when the fourth shot is fired. The bolt guys have all four rounds in the rifle starting with the first shot in the barrel. The target is scored with a possible 40 points if all four rapid fire shots hit the 2 inch 10 ring at 25 yds. My score was 36 of a possible 40 points in 4 seconds flat with a re-load for shots three and four and I was shooting a double that had an auto safety which I promptly forgot and tried to pull the trigger for shot three with the safety on which cost me one full second extra and I still did it in four seconds flat and I only took third place out of twenty shooters. Not one bolt rifle came in at under fifth place and two double rifle shooters beat me on time, but not on score! Now I will say I was shooting a 9.3X74R Merkel double rifle but that little rascal kicks like a little mule because it is so light. Mike Jines beat me with a 500NE Krieghoff double. The PH shooting qualifications in Zimbabwe and We at DRSS have found that in tight four shot competition the double rifle is far faster for the first two shots, about equal in time with the bolt rifle for shot three, and far ahead of the bolt again for shot four. The only person I know who can even come close with a bolt rifle is Monty Kalogeras who runs a Safari shooting school. That guy can really rock and roll with a bolt actioned 404 Jefery , but he cant beat Chris Sells shooting his double rifle. www.safarishootingschool.com .............I know that sounds like "BOLD TALK FOR A ONE EYED FAT MAN" but all I can say is "try me" to anyone who thinks a double rifle is slow for four shots! ......................................................................................... .................  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
|
| one of us |
No,they are just trying to rake in from the double rifle fad. | |||
|
| one of us |
I 've seen the video of Monty shooting the 404.I judge from the recoil that he is using reduced loads and I can't tell his accuracy because the target is moving and distance is changing. | |||
|
| one of us |
I've seen JD shoot his double and I was really impressed. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Mac, What reloading technique are the best double shooters using? 465H&H | |||
|
| One of Us |
How about this? The double is better for close encounters every time. The scoped bolt is better for longer shots. So, you carry your double and let your tracker (or, in my case, my son) carry a nice little Blaser 9,3X62 stoked with NF cup point solids. Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
|
One of Us |
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it." -- George Bernard Shaw Mike | |||
|
| One of Us |
As much as I love DRs, for a one-gun hunter, a scoped magazine rifle is absolutely the best choice for African hunting. The only exception I've found is in Elephant hunting, where shots are close, the caliber large, the field of view critical, and a quick second shot likely. 465 H&H above noted that a bolt rifle will afford 40% more shot opportunities than a DR, and I agree, particularly for Buffalo. As Dave said, carrying a bolt rifle, while your tracker carries your DR, is the best solution, so you can use your double for the opportunities that allow it, and for follow-up on wounded game. I think sometimes we forget that we're client-hunters, not PHs. | |||
|
| One of Us |
 Unfortunately, I've been accused of being the pig on more than one occasion.  | |||
|
| One of Us |
Jon, My take on that is just a bit different. I actually think it's the scope, not the bolt that affords those extra 40% of shots. For example, I often take my Ruger #1 in 300H&H now days where in the past I would have used my 340 WBY when hunting Elk, etc. I tend to grab the #1 for Deer hunting now as well instead of the 270 Sako. The fact that it's a single shot is not a big issue. If it were open sighted, then it would be an issue, vastly restricting the rifle's capabilities. So for me, on this trip next week, I really wanted to try 2 doubles but realized that I needed to be a bit more certain of getting a shot at my buffalo early on instead of working at it until the last day with the open sighted 577. So one is the big hammer and the other, the scoped 9.3x74R. I'm comfortable with that little double out to 200 yards and it can take the Buff duty in a pinch. I haven't shot it beyond that range but I'm sure it would be fine. Michael sent me some of the 3 petal Non-Cons in case the little gun gets pressed into buff service. Anyway, I think it's the scope and not the bolt action that is important for those further than "contact range" shots that need to be taken from time to time. I'm not an advocate of scoping the really large bore doubles, other than possibly an RMR or Doctor Optic "Red Dot" type sight. But if a guy wanted to hunt Africa with a single rifle, and a double at that, I'm thinking a 450/400 or even 500/416 with a quick detach scope setup would serve him fine. | |||
|
| Powered by Social Strata | Page 1 2 3 4 |
 | Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|
The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Double Rifles double rifle or bolt rifle for dangerous game?
Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia