Todd, yes, I imagine it's primarily the scope advantage. But on the other hand, how many DRs can shoot even 6-8" groups from both barrels with a scope at 200 yards? As the need for an immediate, life-saving 2nd shot is diminished at ranges beyond 25 yards, I still say a scoped magazine rifle is a better bet....more familiar to most, greater magazine capacity, better accuracy, etc.

PS: Have GREAT luck on your hunt...the 577 rules :-)

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by AK_Stick:

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
The problem, as I see it, is that at "contact distance" a bolt gun becomes a single shot, whereas a DR is still a two shot. At least that's been my experience, and I'm pretty damned good with a bolt action.

Possibly. But I think if you're so close you can't get a second shot off with a bolt, chances of getting a second shot off with a large caliber double are also fairly slim....

Sorry but I have to strongly disagree with this statement. Too much video evidence and some personal experience to the contrary.

There's a whole hell of a lot of dead animals piled up by shooters with bolt guns at close range too.

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
PS...the 577 rules :-)

+1

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
As much as I love DRs, for a one-gun hunter, a scoped magazine rifle is absolutely the best choice for African hunting. The only exception I've found is in Elephant hunting, where shots are close, the caliber large, the field of view critical, and a quick second shot likely. 465 H&H above noted that a bolt rifle will afford 40% more shot opportunities than a DR, and I agree, particularly for Buffalo.

As Dave said, carrying a bolt rifle, while your tracker carries your DR, is the best solution, so you can use your double for the opportunities that allow it, and for follow-up on wounded game.

I think sometimes we forget that we're client-hunters, not PHs.

Jon,

My take on that is just a bit different. I actually think it's the scope, not the bolt that affords those extra 40% of shots.

Jon I have to agree completely with Todd in his whole post, but especially on the sentence above!

A scoped double rifle as your light rifle, serves three purposes! #1 It allows you to thread a bullet through a hole in the bush missing sticks that can’t be seen with the naked eye over iron sights! #2 If you choose your small double well, it will serve as a back up for your big hammer in case that happens to be what is in your hand when a trophy is encountered. #3 with a scope that is illuminated with a bold post and cross hair it extend shooting time when it is very early or late when the light is not good!

In my case even my 470NE will get the Low powered illuminated German #4 reticle because I am right handed and I have developed macular degeneration in my right eye and can no longer see the iron sights, but I can see the illuminated dot at the apex of the cross hair, and with the scope turned down to one power I can shoot with both eyes open to let the right eye see the dot, and the left see the target, and crosshair. The binocular effect will super impose what both eyes see as one picture for instinctive shooting. Instinctive shooting is the heart and soul of the double rifle. On a scope that will turn down to one power gives on a very wide field of view for even very close quarters shooting.

So Todd is right on all counts in his post, and I simply need the scope for one more reason, even on a big bore double rifle. The scope is what makes any rifle a bit better than the same type over an iron sighted double rifle! Once a double is shooting properly regulating loads, the scope reduces that usefulness 40% deficit quite a lot!

Like you, I hunted for years with a big bore double with irons, and back that up with a quick-detach scoped 375H&H, CRF Mauser rifle, or a scoped No1 chambered for the same round as the double rifle. (a 450/400NE 3 inch ) But today I have different needs because of age and health issues. I think if I were going to hunt with only one rifle it would be a quick-detach scoped 375 FM or 450/400NE 3 inch double rifle! But I prefer two doubles, and now both will be scoped the same way because of the reasons stated above! For you it may be better another way!

.......................................................................

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Mac,

What reloading technique are the best double shooters using?

465H&H

465H&H, I start with the rifle loaded with two rounds in a carrier on the back of my trigger hand which never leaves the pistol-grip! I fire two shots and break the rifle to reload, with the left hand from the two cartridges on the back of my right hand as below!

………………

I find the slowest people to re-load are those who load from a butt-stock cartridge carrier and just a little faster from a belt! Re-loading from the back of the trigger hand the two cartridges are only 4 or 5 inches away from the chambers, and pulled from the hand carrier between the thumb and fore finger as shown in the picture one doesn’t have to take his eyes off the target while loading, and it is very fast! I do use a culling belt, but only for having a full supply of ammo all the time when hunting.

...........................................................................................

quote:

Originally posted by AK_Stick:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by AK_Stick:

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
The problem, as I see it, is that at "contact distance" a bolt gun becomes a single shot, whereas a DR is still a two shot. At least that's been my experience, and I'm pretty damned good with a bolt action.

Possibly. But I think if you're so close you can't get a second shot off with a bolt, chances of getting a second shot off with a large caliber double are also fairly slim....

Sorry but I have to strongly disagree with this statement. Too much video evidence and some personal experience to the contrary.

There's a whole hell of a lot of dead animals piled up by shooters with bolt guns at close range too.

Yes, but that is not what you posted and not what I responded to. You stated that if a shooter can't get a second shot with a bolt gun, he can't get a second shot with a double either. That's a completely different statement than "there are a whole hell of a lot of dead animals piled up by shooters with bolt guns at close range too".

I've been in full on charge situations
with both types of guns, bolts and doubles.
I had practised what I would do before I had gone hunting so mentally had it down pat.

The first was a Cow Buffalo with two calves that decided that running away into brush with me chasing (after two days of chasing her round a paddock) was the last straw so did an about turn and came straight back down the track at me.

I had a 338WM in my hand, held until about 20 yards and fired at the grey mass i the scope, hit her hard in the neck, she turned off to one side and kept running, followed by the two calves.

Even if I had fired a little bit earlier I doubt I would have got another shot off.

Second was a Scrub Bull, wounded, running along the edge of the trees with me running almost parallel so I could get another shot off.
All of a sudden he turned and charged me without missing a beat, starting from 20 yards, I had the gun up and one shot to the brain, he dropped 8 yards in front of me. Again, I would not have got another shot off.

Have also done a Buffalo in an almost charge that I hit at slightly longer range that knocked him flat (neck shot, 500 Nitro). Ran up for the coup de grace.

In 2 of the examples I would have had no chance for a second shot from a big bore of any sort, double or bolt.

If I had shot earlier in the first example,
I may have got a second shot off as I am reasonably fast at working a bolt gun that I am familiar with.

Food for thought ?

Personally, I'd prefer an open sighted double that I am used to shooting / hunting with, with enough oommpphhh to have a shock effect even if it doesn't hit in the right place.

Just my HO.

One thing is perfectly clear. While the bolt rifle user is rusching his reload for the second shot, I am aiming for a good second shot. No doubt about this!

465H&H

465

Agree.

I often wonder if I had had a double in my hands
on that first one if I would have shot earlier
as opposed to waiting where I couldn't miss hitting her.

.

While the fellow shooting the bolt is working the bolt and bringing the muzzle back down to the target simultaneously,the DR user is likewise bringing the muzzle down to the target.In a world without recoil,the DR is no doubt faster.The bolt rifle user just has to decide beforehand that he is got no choice but to shoot fast,just like a DR shooter has decided to use both barrels.A good PH will instruct the hunter to do this,IMO.I remember my PH`s instruction on my Makuti hunt when stalking up on a big old Dagga boy.He said ``whack him once,reload and whack him again``.Very important ,IMO.Also,when he says this he should turn around and look at you in the eyes and get it through.

OK, if we all agree that a Buffalo, Elephant, Lion, Leopard, or Hippo is ONLY considered Dangerous Game if it's within 25 yards and wounded, charging, or intending to....then I agree that a DR is better than a bolt rifle for Dangerous Game. For the above animals at longer distances, a scoped bolt gun is better. How's that? :-)

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
While the fellow shooting the bolt is working the bolt and bringing the muzzle back down to the target simultaneously,the DR user is likewise bringing the muzzle down to the target.

The difference is, the double guy ain't ah worken no bolt, just ah changen triggers! BIG difference!

This is the PH diggin a place for the bolt guy who didn't get the job done with the first shot!

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
OK, if we all agree that a Buffalo, Elephant, Lion, Leopard, or Hippo is ONLY considered Dangerous Game if it's within 25 yards and wounded, charging, or intending to....then I agree that a DR is better than a bolt rifle for Dangerous Game. For the above animals at longer distances, a scoped bolt gun is better. How's that? :-)

Biebs,this is not scope vs double,it is bolt vs double.That is another story,IMO.

Another thing,if a guy can`t work a bolt fast,he has no business hunting DG-at least not close up.So,the argument made comparing novice to pro is useless,IMO

Just get one of each in the calibers of your choice. Then have your wife, hunting companion or gun bearer carry the other always nearby. Don't ever be without either and you'll have a great trip. Why limit your choices.....

Good Hunting

Tetonka
DRSS 450/400NE 3 in
Bolt Trash Dakota 76 416 Rigby
Band of 45/70ers Marlin 1895 Guide Gun (modified)

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
OK, if we all agree that a Buffalo, Elephant, Lion, Leopard, or Hippo is ONLY considered Dangerous Game if it's within 25 yards and wounded, charging, or intending to....then I agree that a DR is better than a bolt rifle for Dangerous Game. For the above animals at longer distances, a scoped bolt gun is better. How's that? :-)

Biebs you are 100% correct, but those animals are simply not dangerous at longer range. At longer range a single shot will do fine, and the scoped bolt will work like a charm. In addition to that when the animals are farther away, nerves do not play as much effect on the smooth operation of the bolt on the bolt rifle shooter.

However this thread has nothing to do with longer range shooting. Folks are arguing that the film is biased in favor of the double rifle, and it is, simply because the double rifle is faster to get off shot number two than a bolt rifle, period. The jist if the film is which is better at the ranges shown in the film. There is no disputing the facts shown on that film, when one takes the film's very close quarters shooting!

I have quite a collection or Ruger No1s and have made some spectacular snap shots on running game at fairly close range, as well as far away. The difference is those close in shots I would not have had time to reload if the first shot didn't do the trick. The bolt rifle would have not been better either but the double would have gone bang, bang as quick as you can say it!

..........................................................................

A double rifle excels at very close range on dangerous game; that's what it's meant to do.

I have been shooting bolt guns all my life, and I have been shooting double rifles for about the past 10 years.

At a range of 35 yards and under, anyone who thinks a bolt gun is as fast as a double rifle is just inexperienced with a double rifle, in any caliber. It's just a ridiculous statement, and I think most accomplished double rifle shooters here would be willing to prove it.

Past 35 yards, it's probably an even game out to 50 yards. At 50 yards and more, a bolt gun is usually the best choice.

I can shoot my double rifles comfortably out to 100 yards. But there is no way I would prefer a bolt gun to a double rifle at 35 yards and under on any type of game, to include dangerous down to whitetail.

Double rifles should point and shoot like a fine shotgun. That's the theory, with speed and pointability in mind.

Some bolt guns and single shots point like a shotgun, but most do not.

Mike

Yeah, what Mike said! :-)

Greetings, Please remember that some of us do not use Bolt actions at all. I have done 4 Dangerous Game safaris with Ruger#1 .416 Rigby and I can shoot follow-up shots fast. Never had a PH fire a shot at my game. Next hunt I wish for .500 NE Ejector Double should conditions get bad. Cheers

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
While the fellow shooting the bolt is working the bolt and bringing the muzzle back down to the target simultaneously,the DR user is likewise bringing the muzzle down to the target.In a world without recoil,the DR is no doubt faster.The bolt rifle user just has to decide beforehand that he is got no choice but to shoot fast,just like a DR shooter has decided to use both barrels.A good PH will instruct the hunter to do this,IMO.I remember my PH`s instruction on my Makuti hunt when stalking up on a big old Dagga boy.He said ``whack him once,reload and whack him again``.Very important ,IMO.Also,when he says this he should turn around and look at you in the eyes and get it through.

Shoots, I really don't mean to be rude to you, I really don't, but this statement is completely void of intelligent thought usually brought on by the DG experience that I know you have. I know you've seen my ele cow video clip where I shot her with a frontal brain shot that missed just a bit low and left, but she sat on her but and turned to her left, exposing her shoulder. I fired the second barrel into her shoulder, taking out the heart, WHILE SHE WAS STILL DROPPING FROM THE FIRST BARREL. No way that shot could be pulled off with a bolt gun. I hate to post it again as it's had quite a bit of play already but that clip was filmed with me using a 500NE. There is NO issue of getting the rifle back onto target due to recoil. Do you need to see it again?

"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."

-- George Bernard Shaw

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
While the fellow shooting the bolt is working the bolt and bringing the muzzle back down to the target simultaneously,the DR user is likewise bringing the muzzle down to the target.In a world without recoil,the DR is no doubt faster.The bolt rifle user just has to decide beforehand that he is got no choice but to shoot fast,just like a DR shooter has decided to use both barrels.A good PH will instruct the hunter to do this,IMO.I remember my PH`s instruction on my Makuti hunt when stalking up on a big old Dagga boy.He said ``whack him once,reload and whack him again``.Very important ,IMO.Also,when he says this he should turn around and look at you in the eyes and get it through.

Shoots, I really don't mean to be rude to you, I really don't, but this statement is completely void of intelligent thought usually brought on by the DG experience that I know you have. I know you've seen my ele cow video clip where I shot her with a frontal brain shot that missed just a bit low and left, but she sat on her but and turned to her left, exposing her shoulder. I fired the second barrel into her shoulder, taking out the heart, WHILE SHE WAS STILL DROPPING FROM THE FIRST BARREL. No way that shot could be pulled off with a bolt gun. I hate to post it again as it's had quite a bit of play already but that clip was filmed with me using a 500NE. There is NO issue of getting the rifle back onto target due to recoil. Do you need to see it again?

See that you can shoot a fast second round at something as big as a barn? If you really believe in video as you say,put up a visible target at 30yds and show us how quickly and accurately you can shoot and recover from the double,then do it again and again and again.Also,get behind the camera so we can see you and the target.The video you mention proves nothing.We can't even see if you hit the ele the second time.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."

-- George Bernard Shaw

Again, words of wisdom!

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
While the fellow shooting the bolt is working the bolt and bringing the muzzle back down to the target simultaneously,the DR user is likewise bringing the muzzle down to the target.In a world without recoil,the DR is no doubt faster.The bolt rifle user just has to decide beforehand that he is got no choice but to shoot fast,just like a DR shooter has decided to use both barrels.A good PH will instruct the hunter to do this,IMO.I remember my PH`s instruction on my Makuti hunt when stalking up on a big old Dagga boy.He said ``whack him once,reload and whack him again``.Very important ,IMO.Also,when he says this he should turn around and look at you in the eyes and get it through.

Shoots, I really don't mean to be rude to you, I really don't, but this statement is completely void of intelligent thought usually brought on by the DG experience that I know you have. I know you've seen my ele cow video clip where I shot her with a frontal brain shot that missed just a bit low and left, but she sat on her but and turned to her left, exposing her shoulder. I fired the second barrel into her shoulder, taking out the heart, WHILE SHE WAS STILL DROPPING FROM THE FIRST BARREL. No way that shot could be pulled off with a bolt gun. I hate to post it again as it's had quite a bit of play already but that clip was filmed with me using a 500NE. There is NO issue of getting the rifle back onto target due to recoil. Do you need to see it again?

See that you can shoot a fast second round at something as big as a barn? If you really believe in video as you say,put up a visible target at 30yds and show us how quickly and accurately you can shoot and recover from the double,then do it again and again and again.Also,get behind the camera so we can see you and the target.The video you mention proves nothing.We can't even see if you hit the ele the second time.

Actually Shoots, you need to be in front of the camera, not behind it. Not only can I outshoot you with a double, I can make a better video!

Do you mean like this one:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by AK_Stick:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by AK_Stick:

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
The problem, as I see it, is that at "contact distance" a bolt gun becomes a single shot, whereas a DR is still a two shot. At least that's been my experience, and I'm pretty damned good with a bolt action.

Possibly. But I think if you're so close you can't get a second shot off with a bolt, chances of getting a second shot off with a large caliber double are also fairly slim....

Sorry but I have to strongly disagree with this statement. Too much video evidence and some personal experience to the contrary.

There's a whole hell of a lot of dead animals piled up by shooters with bolt guns at close range too.

Yes, but that is not what you posted and not what I responded to. You stated that if a shooter can't get a second shot with a bolt gun, he can't get a second shot with a double either. That's a completely different statement than "there are a whole hell of a lot of dead animals piled up by shooters with bolt guns at close range too".

Actually, it was in response to your statement that there is much video and personal experience saying that a bolt gun won't get a second shot at close range, but a double will.


As I said, there's lots of dead animals from close range action with a bolt gun too.


Your personal experience may be that you couldn't get a second shot off with a bolt gun,but could with a double, because you're better with a double.


That doesn't mean that everyone else is. I'm by far better with my bolts than my doubles. (20-ish years of shooting vs a little over 1). I hit the brown bear that charged me, twice with my 375 ICL before he could cover 25 ft.


The biggest mistake I see, is that many people, are looking to see what happened to the animal they shot at, before they chamber a second round. As soon as I fire, I'm working the bolt while in recoil. About as fast as I can get the rifle back on target, my bolt is going back into battery.


If you're not doing that, yeah, I can see how you'd be markedly slower with a bolt gun. Because you're observing the shot/hit, then deciding to work the bolt and make a follow up shot. So the guns back on target, before you start to work it. The double, being nothing but a trigger change would be faster.

Todd, I don't get it. I can plainly see you in the video, and yet you appear to be IN FRONT of the camera.

How did you do that???

quote:

Originally posted by AK_Stick:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by AK_Stick:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by AK_Stick:

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
The problem, as I see it, is that at "contact distance" a bolt gun becomes a single shot, whereas a DR is still a two shot. At least that's been my experience, and I'm pretty damned good with a bolt action.

Possibly. But I think if you're so close you can't get a second shot off with a bolt, chances of getting a second shot off with a large caliber double are also fairly slim....

Sorry but I have to strongly disagree with this statement. Too much video evidence and some personal experience to the contrary.

There's a whole hell of a lot of dead animals piled up by shooters with bolt guns at close range too.

Yes, but that is not what you posted and not what I responded to. You stated that if a shooter can't get a second shot with a bolt gun, he can't get a second shot with a double either. That's a completely different statement than "there are a whole hell of a lot of dead animals piled up by shooters with bolt guns at close range too".

Actually, it was in response to your statement that there is much video and personal experience saying that a bolt gun won't get a second shot at close range, but a double will.


As I said, there's lots of dead animals from close range action with a bolt gun too.


Your personal experience may be that you couldn't get a second shot off with a bolt gun,but could with a double, because you're better with a double.


That doesn't mean that everyone else is. I'm by far better with my bolts than my doubles. (20-ish years of shooting vs a little over 1). I hit the brown bear that charged me, twice with my 375 ICL before he could cover 25 ft.


The biggest mistake I see, is that many people, are looking to see what happened to the animal they shot at, before they chamber a second round. As soon as I fire, I'm working the bolt while in recoil. About as fast as I can get the rifle back on target, my bolt is going back into battery.


If you're not doing that, yeah, I can see how you'd be markedly slower with a bolt gun. Because you're observing the shot/hit, then deciding to work the bolt and make a follow up shot. So the guns back on target, before you start to work it. The double, being nothing but a trigger change would be faster.

This one is so off the wall that I'm going to take Jines' advice!

Yes,I see your muzzle going up into the air and you bringing it down for another shot.I see that the second shots were quite a bit off for a 25yd target that size.There is nothing in this video that proves a DR to be quicker than a bolt,IMO.I see too that you are a heavy dude and are not as effected by recoil as someone weighing 170lbs would be.

quote:

Originally posted by jwm:
Todd, I don't get it. I can plainly see you in the video, and yet you appear to be IN FRONT of the camera.

How did you do that???

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Yes,I see your muzzle going up into the air and you bringing it down for another shot.I see that the second shots were quite a bit off for a 25yd target that size.There is nothing in this video that proves a DR to be quicker than a bolt,IMO.I see too that you are a heavy dude and are not as effected by recoil as someone weighing 170lbs would be.

Again, before this one gets ugly, I'm taking Jines' advice!!

I am just putting in my argument for the bolt rifle.I am not trying to win a prize or go against anyone.Some people are offended because I don`t agree with them but that`s what makes it fun.BTW,enjoyed the pics!

Wouldn't proficiency play a huge role in this too? I know that adrenaline can do wonderous things as well though. Since I've only had my double for a few months, I'm no where near as quick (and accurate) with it as I am my lever gun (45-70).

I am by no means the greatest double rifle shooter on this forum or anywhere else for that matter. But I'm not bad.

On December 15th, I am sponsoring an event in which I would welcome any and all participants.

It is at Royal Flush Shooting Preserve in Pulaski, TN. Here is how the event goes:

Dec 15:

10:00 Driven Pheasant Shoot for up to 22 guns.

12:30 Lunch & Fellowship

2:00 Double Rifle Exhibition (Hunters & Shooters from all over can gather to share stories, shoot each others gun, and participate in a light hearted competition all for the love of the double rifle.

Dinner to follow.

Dec 16:

Walk up Quail / Pheasant Hunt for total of 8 Hunters. 4 Slots remain available.

Cost is as follows: Driven Pheasant & Double
Rifle Shoot: $250

Overnight Lodging and Day Two Walk Up Hunt:
$400 per person.

That's a Driven Pheasant Shoot, Double Rifle Shoot, overnight lodging w/ meals, and walk up quail / pheasant for just $650.

Here's the deal: Anyone who wants to show up for the double rifle shoot and challenge me to a shoot off using a bolt against my double rifle for speed and accuracy, I will pay $100 if I lose and expect $100 if I win. Results would be based upon a gentleman's agreement.

If anyone can out-shoot me at 40 yards using a bolt gun for speed/accuracy, then I should pay them $100; they've earned it.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Jerry Macy:
Greetings, Please remember that some of us do not use Bolt actions at all. I have done 4 Dangerous Game safaris with Ruger#1 .416 Rigby and I can shoot follow-up shots fast. Never had a PH fire a shot at my game. Next hunt I wish for .500 NE Ejector Double should conditions get bad. Cheers

Jerry let me ask you, have you ever had an encounter as close as any of the sceens in that film clip?

If not do you think you could re-load fast enough to get off a finishing shot, or would your PH have to step in?

Just curious as to your thinking on the subject!

How many times will a fish hit the same lure before it learns that nothing good will come of it?

quote:

Originally posted by mmassey338:
How many times will a fish hit the same lure before it learns that nothing good will come of it?

It is obvious that some fish are smarter than some posters on here!

465H&H

Quiet!! We're spawning :-)

quote:

Originally posted by 500NitrEx:
Wouldn't proficiency play a huge role in this too? I know that adrenaline can do wonderous things as well though. Since I've only had my double for a few months, I'm no where near as quick (and accurate) with it as I am my lever gun (45-70).

500NitrEx, proficiency does certainly does play a roll in the outcome of any shooting contest.

One would assume that anyone claiming to be as fast and as accurate with a magazine rifle for the first two shots as a man shooting a double rifle, certainly should consider himself as proficient with his bolt rifle, as the guy he is shooting against. The answer to whether he is or not will come when he tries it!

If not he is about to enjoy a whipping! As to the other part of your post above, don’t worry about your proficiency with your new double rifle being less than with the lever action 45-70. I’m sure you didn’t become as proficient with your lever gun in just a few months as you are now. Also the difference between a 45-70 and your 500NE double is a very wide canyon to jump. Your proficiency with your double will come with practice.

The thinking of a bolt rifle guy that is contrary to what the film in question shows, thinks he is as fast as the double comes from his long use of that bolt rifle, so he has become very proficient with it, but simply has no experience with shooting against a equally proficient double rifle shooter. At this point the mechanics of the two types of rifles takes over.

Most who have been shooting nothing but bolt rifles for may years, and are quick with them simply do not realize how many moves are required to get off that second shot, and every shot thereafter! This is because they have developed muscle memory and they simply make these moves without thinking about them. The double rifle person does exactly the same, so the only difference between the two is the physical moves needed to accomplish the same number of shots if both are equally proficient with their weapon of choice.

Stop and think about the moves needed for each rifle to get off shot number two.

With the bolt rifle starting with the first round in the chamber, # 1 you fire that round, #2 you recover from recoil, #3 you lift the bolt, #4 you pull the bolt back, #5 you shove the bolt forward, # 6 you pull the bolt down, #7 you get the trigger hand back on the pistol grip, # 8 your re-align the sights on the target, # 9 you fire shot number two.

With the double rifle starting with both barrels loaded, #1 you fire the first shot, #2 you recover from recoil, #3 you change triggers, #4 your align the sights, and #5 you pull the trigger!

That is nine distinct moves needed to get off two shots with the bolt rifle, and five for the double, and one never has to work any mechanical thing other than the trigger.

The only place the bolt rife catches up to the double rifle is when shot three is needed, and the double is so much faster for the first two, that the reload slows him down only about equal in time to the bolt for shot three, but now the bolt requires another nine moves to get off shot four, while double only require five moves between shot three and four.

I anyone doubts the move count, take your bolt rifle to the range, and fire the first shot on target, then very slowly call out the number of moves as you make them before the second shot can be fired on target. I think the result of this exercise will surprise even the best bolt rifle shooter. Not only the number of moves, but the chance of a miss step between any two of these moves is fodder for Mr. Murphy to step in and gum up the works at a very critical moment.

........................................................................

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I had this discussion with my PH Blake while in the Land Cruiser during my past hunt.I mentioned that the double might be quicker and then we looked at recoil recovery time and how a bolt can be cycled during that time.A bolt can be fired very fast at close quarters.The video above is unfair to bolt rifles-I suspect it is purposely done so.There is one scene where a scoped bolt is used to shoot at a target from a distance and another elephant charge scene,with a double, that seems sped up.If one is within 20 yds of his game with a bolt and has decided to shoot two quick shots,it can be done really fast.Could it be done as fast as a double? Possibly,IMO.Here is a clip of a 308 at 20yds.

Shootaway, that is some fine and quick shooting for sure, but nobody could see you working the bolt, or how you were holding or RESTING the rifle in the film. I, for one, would like to see you in the frames doing the shooting, and you can zoom the camera in on the target without shutting it off for the group. I will say you are better at shooting that .308 than filming, to show the whole story. Of course nobody can be good at everything.

Before you get your back up, I fully believe that you were shooting as you say, but you see, any film can be suspect if you don’t agree with the outcome, so as you say creative editing can go both ways. I personally believe both were done fairly.

Your suspicion because a scoped bolt rifle was seen early in the film, but the close-up shooting done with a double, makes perfect sense to me. Many times an animal is wounded with a longer shot with a bolt rifle, but changed for the double for the follow-up because of the close quarters of the shooting in tight cover. I will look at the film again but I suspect the bolt was the rifle that wounded the lion, then, followed up by Ivan in the thick stuff with his double. That film only shows the close-in follow up of an already wounded animal, or one encountered in very tight cover! The difference in speed is evident to anyone with an open mind and without a preconceived opinion that they can’t stand to be found short on reality!

Now let me ask you, how often have you seen anyone shooting very close up elephant, or buffalo with a bolt action .308 Win (7.62 Nato) cartridge, or even a .308 double rifle for that matter? Do you, for one minute, think you could do that well with a 458LOTT, or even a 458 Win Mag bolt rifle, and get off the shots that fast and maintain that accuracy? I sincerely think not, and I don’t believe you think you could either!

There is a large difference between shooting a little pip-squeak .308 with a heavy barrel to dampen what little recoil it develops, and shooting a real elephant rifle within 25 yards while he is quickly closing on you with mayhem on his mind.

PS; With this last post I'm through with this thread! ENJOY!
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