I could shoot the Lott that fast at that distance.The shooting in the video was not my fastest.It was not a video I chose among a bunch of slower ones.It was filming done on an ordinary day of shooting practice at the range.It was not a video done purposely to show how fast a bolt can be.I will not go and make such a video.I have endured to many headaches and if that keeps up shooting will be something I will least look forward to doing.

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Quiet!! We're spawning :-)

I've learned my lesson. I promise.

I continue to find the entertainment here on AR, and particularly on the DR page, to be well worth the price of admission. I do have to say, as a film critic, that Mr Williams' video gets the Academy award over the one where people are speaking French in the background. But, having made that observation- the Montrealean is pretty fast on that bolt. That is not a comment on the utility of either Bolt or DR, as I already have my preferences. So no hate mail please.

Actually, I should have said, I have learned my lesson ... AGAIN!

Now how do I get this hook out of my mouth!

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Actually, I should have said, I have learned my lesson ... AGAIN!

Now how do I get this hook out of my mouth!

Todd,

PM your address and I will send you my Acme New and Improved Handy Dandy Hook Remover.



465H&H

No Sir, I have not had any extreme close encounters with Dangerous Game and having to reload my #1. Just lucky I guess. Shot a Cape buffalo at 15yds. and good size elephant bull at 18yds. as it was coming towards me. No second shots needed. I would leave PH to decide if necessary to shoot. As I mentioned I hope to carry a good Double ejector .500 NE next trip. Sometimes luck runs out. Cheers

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Actually, I should have said, I have learned my lesson ... AGAIN!

Now how do I get this hook out of my mouth!

Todd,

PM your address and I will send you my Acme New and Improved Handy Dandy Hook Remover.



465H&H

Yea, that barb is a bitch!!

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
One thing is perfectly clear. While the bolt rifle user is rusching his reload for the second shot, I am aiming for a good second shot. No doubt about this!

465H&H

Not necessarily, the second shot from the double may also have been rushed, 'bang bang', and ineffectual. Then you really are standing with an empty gun if the charge is continued.

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by 465H&H:
One thing is perfectly clear. While the bolt rifle user is rusching his reload for the second shot, I am aiming for a good second shot. No doubt about this!

465H&H

eagle27,

I don't rush either shot!

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by 465H&H:
One thing is perfectly clear. While the bolt rifle user is rusching his reload for the second shot, I am aiming for a good second shot. No doubt about this!

465H&H

eagle27,

I don't rush either shot!

465H&H

Most likely you don't 465 and so too I would not 'rush' any of my 4 shots if indeed I needed them all!

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
[

Most likely you don't 465 and so too I would not 'rush' any of my 4 shots if indeed I needed them all!

I think what 465 meant is that even without rushing, the process of cycling a bolt is far more disturbing to the aligned rifle than a second shot from a Double.

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
[

Most likely you don't 465 and so too I would not 'rush' any of my 4 shots if indeed I needed them all!

I think what 465 meant is that even without rushing, the process of cycling a bolt is far more disturbing to the aligned rifle than a second shot from a Double.

I would agree with that statement 100%. And, where we are talking about close contact with DG, if the contact is so close as to only allow the second shot from a double, and not from a bolt, there will certainly be no opportunity to employ shots 3 and 4 in the bolt gun!

Biebs, I'm dying here ...


By the way, we can settle this debate for good by turning to a drilling with all three barrels in .500 ...

I'm still in disbelief that someone thinks an experienced bolt gunman can outshoot an experienced double rilfe shooter for two shots accurately with speed at 50 yards and under.

It's insanity. They have no or little experience with a double rifle.

I was thinking of which award would be appropriate for Todd`s accomplishments as shown in the video.He certainly deserves a trophy or medal.

quote:

Originally posted by mdstewart:
I'm still in disbelief that someone thinks an experienced bolt gunman can outshoot an experienced double rilfe shooter for two shots accurately with speed at 50 yards and under.

It's insanity. They have no or little experience with a double rifle.

I have to amend my statement to say an experienced double rifle shooter that can actually shoot; and the same goes for the bolt shooter.

At the end of the day, as I have found out,
1. You use whatever you have in your hand at the time !

2. You shoot and work the action as fast as you know how, whether it is reloading from the shoulder for a bolt gun or pulling the second trigger on a Double and then dumping !

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I was thinking of which award would be appropriate for Todd`s accomplishments as shown in the video.He certainly deserves a trophy or medal.

I am sure he would appreciate cash instead.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I was thinking of which award would be appropriate for Todd`s accomplishments as shown in the video.He certainly deserves a trophy or medal.

I am sure he would appreciate cash instead.

Cash with proper Identification!!

attitude, perhaps, and the link to the past...

About time Todd was given the recognition he so richly deserves. George, have you ever received any bolt action shooting awards? Surely a shooting ballerina has received some critical acclaim.

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:

I'd like to take this opportunity to thank the academy ...

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:

I'd like to take this opportunity to thank the academy ...

...............
..........................

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
About time Todd was given the recognition he so richly deserves. George, have you ever received any bolt action shooting awards? Surely a shooting ballerina has received some critical acclaim.

No.I do things that make me happy and if anyone likes what I do then that is a bonus.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
About time Todd was given the recognition he so richly deserves. George, have you ever received any bolt action shooting awards? Surely a shooting ballerina has received some critical acclaim.

No.I do things that make me happy and if anyone likes what I do then that is a bonus.

Very touching.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
About time Todd was given the recognition he so richly deserves. George, have you ever received any bolt action shooting awards? Surely a shooting ballerina has received some critical acclaim.

No.I do things that make me happy and if anyone likes what I do then that is a bonus.

Very touching.

It's late and I had a long day. When I read your response Mike, I read, "Very touched".

quote:

Originally posted by Muletrain:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
It's a double for me. Thank you very much.

I have to take a bit of issue with the recoil recovery time comments. Ray Atkinson has gone on and on in the past about how nothing over a .40 cal can be brought back on target accurately on DG.........

Ray should watch Mr. Jines shoot his .500 and then see if he want's to change his opinion.

Speaking of opinions, I have an opinion on a lot of stuff that Ray writes on the internet.

I guess the double versus bolt debate will always be never ending but it is nevertheless all good debate where there are two sides to the story.

As I posted earlier my take is that just because you have two quick shots available from a double it does not necessarily mean they will be effectual shots no more so than 4 rapid shots from a bolt action will be. And this is not just the realm of inexperienced shooters either. Most of us who have done enough shooting on a variety of game will know that sometimes you pull the trigger when things are just not quite right. Even Pondoro Taylor alludes to this where he says that he was not one of those hunters who could stop himself pulling the trigger in a split second once he had taken up the pressure and decided to shoot in hurried situations. He admitted that with all his experience and skill sometimes he did fluff these shots.

I like the video Mike (MJines) posted some time ago where it shows skill and courage in facing a rapidly incoming elephant and was a success story of a great hunt. I have referred to this before but unfortunately had not seen the full version of the video (still haven’t) and also misread Mike’s analysis of the shots on the elephant accompanied by photos of the impacts so Mike did correct me on a couple of observations.

Although many commented that this showed the power and effectiveness of a big double, I think in all respect that it shows a little of what I speak of above. If the video as I have seen posted is analysed carefully it shows the charging elephant head shot by Mike and Buzz with a shot each within a split second of each other, in almost the spot (confirmed by the photos Mike posted and comments on later in a post). The ele can be seen dropping to these two shots virtually at their feet. Mike fires his second barrel another split second later at the dropping target with this shot going quite high on the head (again this can be seen in his photos).

Buzz is reloading his 416 bolt during this time and then gets Mike to follow him out to the side of the ele. I assumed at this stage that the ele was down and out with brain shots but according to Mike it got up and hightailed it away. Buzz is shown shooting again which I thought was a warning shot to another ele but it turns out this was at the ‘downed’ ele which then at some stage Mike got back in on the act and fired some more to finally down the beast. According to Mike all three of the first shots missed the brain but it is apparent that either Mike’s first and or Buzz’s, stopped the charge by dropping the ele.

So firstly to the power of the gun, was it the 500 or the 416 or both that had the effect of stopping the charge? Can’t really say in this situation and although the charge was stopped I don't think it can be claimed to be because of the double alone.

Secondly it shows that despite the double having two quick shots, it does not go to say that they can both be effectual in some cases. If Mike’s second had of been, then we could assume that he would have hit the brain or at least the shock of the second big 500 close to the brain would have kept the ele down for follow up shots while it was on the deck, and this does not seem to be the case i.e. this quick second shot from the double did not appear to 'aid' the situation.

Thirdly, it appears, and I qualify this in case the video was edited and did not show it, that Mike followed Buzz around to the side and was standing with an empty gun while Buzz reloaded ran and continued to shoot.

To me this great hunting video clearly shows the benefit of big bores on stopping DG charges where an instantly killing shot is not attained. What it does not show, IN THIS CASE, is where the double rules over the bolt. In fact if anything, the video clip shows where the bolt can rule where multiple shots need to be taken, UNDER DURESS, on the move, and without taking one’s eyes off the proceedings.

We’re definitely not talking here about how good someone is with either gun on the comfort of a range under controlled and ‘ready’ conditions.

A long winded post but I do have an analytical mind and in all my years of shooting do like to ask the questions as to how and why things went the way they did, and have kicked myself on occasions as why I did something completely dumb and mucked up the shot or made it harder than it should have been. Mike and others will probably have a different take on my observations, but that is all they are.

eagle27,

You have the information on that incident pretty much spot on. The only information that is incorrect is that after the cow got up and started to try and run off, Buzz shot once, then shot again and I did not shoot. I had reloaded after Buzz's second shot but there was no need to shoot. The cow was stumbling around when Buzz shot, and shortly thereafter the cow collapsed.

Of course we will never know what role each of the first three shots, mine, Buzz's and mine again, played in stopping the charge. But I do agree with you wholeheartedly on your point that echos what Pondoro Taylor advocated, that "Before a rifle can be termed a safe, suitable and satisfactory weapon for elephant, it must have sufficient power to be able to be absolutely relied upon to knock down an elephant under all circumstances . . . 'Shock', as applied to heavy, massive-boned animals like elephant does not refer to killing power, but to the ability of the rifle to knock the animal down."

One last point, earlier this season using the same rifle he was using when the cow elephant charged, Buzz had his rifle jam on the second shot. Criton, his tracker, ended up getting knocked down and had his pelvis crushed by the elephant. Buzz retired the bolt rifle and started using a Blaser; he has since retired the Blaser and is using a Heym .500NE. There will be no jams with the left barrel of a double.

[Buzz's description of the incident with Criton:

http://forums.accuratereloadin...121058571#2121058571 ]

What is more likely to occur to an experienced hunter,a double fire or a trigger mechanism fail with a double or a jam with a bolt gun?

A bolt action jam.

Or pulling the same trigger on a DR twice :-)

He said "an experienced hunter".

Mike I did read the post on Buzz and the unfortunate events leading to his tracker being injured earlier. Also saw another video posted here somewhere of a close quarters buffalo charge where the PHs bolt action would not eject the empties. In this case he was cool-headed enough to flick them out with his fingers, load and stop the charge. His client also had a hand in the proceedings too.

This begs the question, can we make judgement on the performance of any gun type base on use by PHs in Africa as from what I have seen some of these are pretty rough and ready and from all accounts gunsmithing services are not so readily available to keep these firearms in good operating condition.

Looking at the treatment some of these bolt actions have received, I would not hold out that those PHs would treat or maintain doubles any better? How much actual shooting do PHs do with their firearms or is most of the wear and damage caused with dust, dirt, rough handling and transport?

I have carried my firearms around for over 50 years from the age of around ten in some of the roughest country, roughest transport including 4WDs, boats and choppers, and in some of the worst weather nature can throw at us, and this includes a week of rough and tough hunting in Aussie on buffalo with my 404 bolt gun, but all my firearms have remained in excellent condition and not one has ever suffered a failure of any kind. Had one fogged scope, a fairly new Kahles.

I would imagine that those with the money to hunt Africa will (or should with no excuses) have doubles or bolts in excellent well tested working condition.

I consider myself quite unbiased in the answer to this question as I use both Bolt and Double rifles. I find myself leaning towards the fast shooting ability of the first two shots provided by a Double rifle for most general hunting situation (Point blank to 80 yards). However there will be situations where a large capacity Bolt actioned rifle may be better suited but not as often as two quick shots.

Most people have been hunting for most of their lives with bolt action rifles,then buy a double rifle to hunt DG with.That is really classic but what do they know about double rifles? If they were hunting with a double rifle for many years then that would be another story-the hunter would have a tool in his hands that he is familiar with.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Most people have been hunting for most of their lives with bolt action rifles,then buy a double rifle to hunt DG with.

Wisdom comes with age . . . in most cases.

Mike,let`s see if you can win an award like Todd did with the double.

Doubtful. I shoot with my eyes closed.