The other thread that Ledvm posted raised this question in my mind.

Obviously a Merkel or a Chapuis is a better value at $10K than is a Sabatti at $5K or $6K because Merkels and Chapuis's go bang every time you pull the trigger as well as their being usually well regulated and generally serviceable rifles. Mjines takes it a step further and claims that Heyms are in turn worth 50% to 100% more than a Merkel or Chapuis, I assume by his reasoning that this logic applies to Verney-Carrons, Searcys, Hambruschs, and other doubles in the Heym price range but at what point does the law of diminishing returns kick in?

I know people who have doubles that are worth $60K, $70K, or even $100K. Does that mean that a $100K double is six or seven times better than a $15K Heym since by Mjines's estimate an $8K or $10K Merkel is a POS while a $15K Heym is the cat's ass? If this is true why don't all PHs carry $150,000 (or whatever they cost nowadays) Holland and Holland Royals since a Heym would probably get them killed?

I had a 1969 A12 440-6pack roadrunner that was worth considerably more than my 2004 Mercedes E500 sedan. The Roadrunner would be more apt to get you killed than the mercedes so value and safety don't necessarily go hand in hand.

The Mercedes will go down in value the Roadrunner (economic influences aside) will go up in value.

That Holland & Holland stands a better chance of being worth more later than the Heym or Hambrusch

But, which shoots better? Not sure the Holland & Holland shoots 10 times better than the Heym at 10 times the cost.

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:
I had a 1969 A12 440-6pack roadrunner that was worth considerably more than my 2004 Mercedes E500 sedan. The Roadrunner would be more apt to get you killed than the mercedes so value and safety don't necessarily go hand in hand.

The Mercedes will go down in value the Roadrunner (economic influences aside) will go up in value.

That Holland & Holland stands a better chance of being worth more later than the Heym or Hambrusch

But, which shoots better? Not sure the Holland & Holland shoots 10 times better than the Heym at 10 times the cost.

So is a Heym twice as good as a Merkel?

quote:

Originally posted by Robert Wilde:

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:
I had a 1969 A12 440-6pack roadrunner that was worth considerably more than my 2004 Mercedes E500 sedan. The Roadrunner would be more apt to get you killed than the mercedes so value and safety don't necessarily go hand in hand.

The Mercedes will go down in value the Roadrunner (economic influences aside) will go up in value.

That Holland & Holland stands a better chance of being worth more later than the Heym or Hambrusch

But, which shoots better? Not sure the Holland & Holland shoots 10 times better than the Heym at 10 times the cost.

So is a Heym twice as good as a Merkel?

Couldn't tell you.

quote:

Originally posted by Robert Wilde:
The other thread that Ledvm posted raised this question in my mind.

Obviously a Merkel or a Chapuis is a better value at $10K than is a Sabatti at $5K or $6K because Merkels and Chapuis's go bang every time you pull the trigger as well as their being usually well regulated and generally serviceable rifles. Mjines takes it a step further and claims that Heyms are in turn worth 50% to 100% more than a Merkel or Chapuis, I assume by his reasoning that this logic applies to Verney-Carrons, Searcys, Hambruschs, and other doubles in the Heym price range but at what point does the law of diminishing returns kick in?

I know people who have doubles that are worth $60K, $70K, or even $100K. Does that mean that a $100K double is six or seven times better than a $15K Heym since by Mjines's estimate an $8K or $10K Merkel is a POS while a $15K Heym is the cat's ass? If this is true why don't all PHs carry $150,000 (or whatever they cost nowadays) Holland and Holland Royals since a Heym would probably get them killed?

Once you get the mechanicals right and a good fit to the shooter, the rest is just cosmetics.

What makes the mechanicals right? Does it need to stand up to 20K+ rounds without service? Does it require articulated triggers? Lump/Chopper/etc. barrels? IMHO, not really.

Once you get past the Chapuis and Merkel level, you get some nice mechanical features but they don't really affect the basic function of the firearm. Above Heym and V-C, I think it's just mainly the cosmetics and "status" for bragging rights at the local watering hole. YMMV

quote:

At What Point does the Law of Diminishing Returns Apply to Doubles?

Just as soon as you decide to buy one!

quote:

Originally posted by Robert Wilde:

Does that mean that a $100K double is six or seven times better than a $15K Heym since by Mjines's estimate an $8K or $10K Merkel is a POS while a $15K Heym is the cat's ass?

Robert,

I don't think that is what Mike is saying at all. I have a Merklel in 500NE. It has the additional engraving and a nice piece of wood. One of the engraved animals is a bit cartoonish but I really like it just the same. In fact, for $10,000 I consider it a real treasure. It shoots great and has killed 3 elephants and a couple of buffalo in my hands.

That doesn't change the fact that other models, such as the Heym, are superior in fit and form. I doubt any Heym will outshoot my Merkel, so for me, that is what I'm willing to pay for. Still, the Heym has features than mine does not, such as the intercepting sears and ejectors. I have another double with ejectors also and I don't really value them over the extractors, but the intercepting sears would be nice. But the Heym balances better and the wood to metal fit is closer.

Back in college, I bought a PF Winchester M70 Supergrade in 458 Win Mag. I used to think it was the "cats ass" as you say. A few years later, a friend of mine showed me his original Rigby in 416. Didn't change a thing about my rifle, but it introduced me to the fact that there is always a nicer class of weapon available. Both rifles went bang every time you pulled the trigger and both were just about as accurate as the other, but there WAS a difference between the two. Just as there IS between a Merkel and a Heym!

"Twice as good"! Oh the joys of the English language. What do you mean by "good"? Accuracy? Handling? Beauty? Quality? Present value? Value in the future? Rarity? All of these, plus probably additional considerations, play into the meaning of the word "good".
Peter.

I am not sure the first sentence of this first hypothesis is correct. Money spent on aethestics has nothing to do with going bang. Much of the money or value discussed is spent to increase the pride of owership, which can be quite high for some, and a status symbol as well. I would not own a Sabatti for that reason becasue I could afford more, but I would not feel uncomfortable carrying one that had been properly established as functioning. Doubles, like many things in life, are symbols of what we dream about and point to as tangible evidence of those dreams. Some hunters dreams are simply larger than others because they can be afforded. That should not ever imply their value in a life or death confrontation is somehow intrinsically altered by cost. I will take a ground muzzle regulated, birch wood Sabatti, with no sights, that is in my hands when needed than a Holland & Holland in some gun case out of reach. However my dream to have that Holland & Holland is still there. However surviving the moment is a more functional part of the memory.

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:
I had a 1969 A12 440-6pack roadrunner that was worth considerably more than my 2004 Mercedes E500 sedan. The Roadrunner would be more apt to get you killed than the mercedes so value and safety don't necessarily go hand in hand.

The Mercedes will go down in value the Roadrunner (economic influences aside) will go up in value.

That Holland & Holland stands a better chance of being worth more later than the Heym or Hambrusch

But, which shoots better? Not sure the Holland & Holland shoots 10 times better than the Heym at 10 times the cost.

Frostbit that is a very good example, however the problem with the concept is you are forgetting that the Roadrunner had a period of a few years that it was simply an old USED car, and worth considerably less that it was new, and far less than today fully restored. When the Mercedes is as old as your Roadrunner, it will be far more valuable than the RR is today!

This is also the case with the old names from England, when they were ten years old they were simply USED guns as well, and certainly did not sell for anywhere near the price on a new one of the same quality that was still being made! Wait and see what the NEW rifles like the Merkel, and Chapuis sell for when they are 50 to 100 years old and still serviceable!

quote:

Originally posted by Sid Post:
Once you get the mechanicals right and a good fit to the shooter, the rest is just cosmetics.

What makes the mechanicals right? Does it need to stand up to 20K+ rounds without service? Does it require articulated triggers? Lump/Chopper/etc. barrels? IMHO, not really.

Once you get past the Chapuis and Merkel level, you get some nice mechanical features but they don't really affect the basic function of the firearm. Above Heym and V-C, I think it's just mainly the cosmetics and "status" for bragging rights at the local watering hole. YMMV

Sid there is no denying that mechanical advantages do increase the intrinsic value of the rifle! How much value over a rifle without those features is another thing as long as both are sound rifle and work properly is the question.

Like Mike I too would rather have a Heym 88 over my Merkel 140-2 , but to me the cost differential not enough equal to the difference between to two in practical terms.

Everyone is on a different income level. Some of us have to save for years to be able to purchase a 10 to 15K double. Others can write a check for a rifle costing 40K and not even give it a second thought or have to sneak it by the wife.

Diminishing returns? Not sure I agree with the wording but I get the concept. Following are my rambling thoughts about different doubles at different price points.

My $650 Baikal 30-06 might be the most accurate double rifle I own. But it really looks like a piece of shit. Still, it goes boom every time the trigger is pulled. I jokingly call it my disposable double and it will be the one that goes to Kodiak deer hunting with me.

Searcy fills a nice niche as well with his base model. Great value on a well built rifle that are very accurate, built to specs, backed up with superb customer service.

On the opposite end of my spectrum is the Heym 450/400 on order. Took me about 5 years to convince myself it was worth the money and hope I feel the same way once it is built and delivered. Really struggled with the decision to order this as I could not decide between it or another Searcy.

In the middle is the Chapuis UGEX, the "Gold" standard in double rifles. I realize they are not made in calibers above 9,3 but for what they offer for approximately $4,500 they are untouchable as far as price and value received. I have not found another rifle in the UGEX's price range that offers similar value as far as build quality, accuracy, ejectors, etc.

To answer the question, once you get past the UGEX the law of diminishing returns apply in my opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:
Everyone is on a different income level. Some of us have to save for years to be able to purchase a 10 to 15K double. Others can write a check for a rifle costing 40K and not even give it a second thought or have to sneak it by the wife.

Diminishing returns? Not sure I agree with the wording but I get the concept. Following are my rambling thoughts about different doubles at different price points.

My $650 Baikal 30-06 might be the most accurate double rifle I own. But it really looks like a piece of shit. Still, it goes boom every time the trigger is pulled. I jokingly call it my disposable double and it will be the one that goes to Kodiak deer hunting with me.

Searcy fills a nice niche as well with his base model. Great value on a well built rifle that are very accurate, built to specs, backed up with superb customer service.

On the opposite end of my spectrum is the Heym 450/400 on order. Took me about 5 years to convince myself it was worth the money and hope I feel the same way once it is built and delivered. Really struggled with the decision to order this as I could not decide between it or another Searcy.

In the middle is the Chapuis UGEX, the "Gold" standard in double rifles. I realize they are not made in calibers above 9,3 but for what they offer for approximately $4,500 they are untouchable as far as price and value received. I have not found another rifle in the UGEX's price range that offers similar value as far as build quality, accuracy, ejectors, etc.

To answer the question, once you get past the UGEX the law of diminishing returns apply in my opinion.

Snowwolfe,

Agree with you on the UGEX. For a medium bore double, it IS the cats ass!! Now if I can just get a load that mine will shoot with the scope on!

Good Thread.

What we're looking at is the old "80/20" Rule: for 20% of the money you get 80% of the performance.

Problem: The whole point of any rifle to be used on dangerous game is that it MUST go Bang! every time you pull the trigger, and send a projectile toward its intended target. Once you get past that, what you're doing is having fun.

Good hunting.

I guess the same logic applies to bolt action rifles too. So anything more than a Savage is just showing off or if you must have a CRF, a Ruger. It borders on laughable to suggest that fit, form, balance, craftsmanship, etc. do not matter. If that were the case we would all be driving KIAs and the Lexus dealers would be going broke.

I don't think anyone suggested that those things don't matter. I think we need to remember that it is the singer and not the song that matters. We each have to live within our abilities and strive to achieve what we desire. I would also rather drive a KIA and have a double than to have a Lexus and blog about wanting one.

It's been my experience that double rifles seem to be a rule unto themselves and they can be very individual from rifle to rifle regardless of price.

I have owned one double made by J. P. Sauer, one by Vierodt, one by Franz Sodia, 3 by Merkel, and a best grade Jeffery.

The J. P. Sauer doubled, the Vierordt was out of regulation, the Franz Sodia was a 300 H&H that regulated and functioned perfectly with 220 grain bullets at 2200 fps, which was not what you would expect from a 300 H&H.

One of the Merkels, a 500 nitro, the plain scroll engraved model, functioned perfectly and regulation was pefect, another 500 nitro, the higher grade with game scene engraving double when fired but regulation was OK and the other 140 in 9.3x74R worked fine and regulation was also perfect.

The Jeffery was an absolute work of art to look at in 450-400, which was made in 1898 complete with the original work sheet from Holland & Holland. After several months of trying to work out a load for the rilfe I came to the painful conclusion that it didn't matter what you fed the rifle it couldn't regulate vertically.

There is nothing else in this world quite like a doubel rifle but, given the money involved there is also nothing else with the potential that a double rifle has to be a genuine pain in the ass if it doesn't work as it should.

quote:

there is also nothing else with the potential that a double rifle has to be a genuine pain in the ass if it doesn't work as it should.

Good point, except for a Ruger Mini 14!
Peter

I don’t think anyone is saying that extra fit and finish is nothing more than showing off. It is a fine indication of pride of ownership. If a person can afford diamonds, and gold inlays, engraving from one of the masters on his double rifle, I see nothing wrong with having it! Still because a rifle that is devoid of those things but performs well, doesn’t necessarily mean it is a throw away.

Like the Lexus being nothing but a Toyota Camry with a little bling added, when the bling is shed, what is underneath is exactly the same driveline. So, is the guy driving a Camry wasting his money by not buying the Lexus? IMO he simply is either buying the best he can afford, or sees the bling as a waste of his money because both are quality where it really counts.

The same applies to anything in practical terms! If these things both reliably accomplish the same purpose with the only difference being a shiny surface or features that are nice but no accentual to the operation, then it becomes a matter of the guy buying it, thinks those decorations and other features are worth the price, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. However the guy who simply wants a dependable rifle for thousands less that he can apply to extra days on safari, or to pay for another trophy fee, I find absolutely nothing wrong with that concept either!

In the case of a double rifle as long as both are dependable, when those two rifles are side by side trying to stop a charging lion, the only thing that counts is reliability, and the bling means absolutely nothing, till the pictures are taken for the hunt report on the internet!

In the case of the Heym I have owned one, and loved it, I also have owned and do own many other name double rifles, including two Merkel double rifles and several Merkel double shotguns. Would I rather have a new Heym 88, 470NE than my Merkel 140-2, 470NE? Hell yes I would, but I DO HAVE the Merkel, and I would have to put $10K with the Merkel to buy the Heym! I do think the Heym is a better rifle, if only because of better re-sale value? Yes but not $10K better. $10K is a lot of money for a pair of ejectors, and intercepting sears.

As someone said above, “people are all in different financial levels”, and priorities are a must for some (ME) but some simply do not have to ask the price. Where priorities are a must, one buys the best and most reliable he can afford and learns to live with the features he can afford without compromising reliability.

............................................................

Thanks Mac.

Certainly everyone has to act responsibly consistent with their means. But there seems to be an underlying theme here that beyond a certain point, e.g., a Chapuis or a Merkel, that the rest is just eye wash and not value enhancing resulting in a better quality product. That is the premise that I cannot accept. The fact is that the Lexus is a better car than the Camry and anyone (well maybe virtually anyone) given the choice, price out of the equation, between the two will take the Lexus. The reason some do not buy a Lexus and instead buy the Camry is that price for the Lexus, reflecting the value enhancements put into the vehicle in terms of fit, finish, craftsmanship, amenities, etc., is something they either cannot afford to pay or do not value. That said, it does not change the fact that the Lexus is the better car of the two. Similarly just because a Merkel and a Heym both go boom when you pull the trigger does not change the fact that the Heym is a better double. It is all so intuitive that I feel that some are either being disingenous or trying to rationalize their own buying decisions. Time for me to move on . . .

Many are missing the point I think. No question a Lexus is MORE car than a Camry, but it is nevertheless a valid question whether spending 50K or 100(or more) on an H&H gives you 30K worth of performance over a Heym. Personally and from a functionality perspective, I just don't see how from a quality perspective the H&H is that much better. Would I spend the money? ABSOLUTELY, but I just don't think the value added is a direct correlation to quality after a certain level of excellence is reached.

As usual, Mike seems to have put his finger on it. I own a Lexus ES330. I really wanted a Toyota Avalon but the dealer gave me the runaround, so, I bought a used (demo car) Lexus. I have owned it for 5 years now and I still love to get in it! I use it every day. I still get a kick out of handling and shooting my doubles (K gun, MK Owen and Blaser S2) but I don't shoot them every day! So, I rationalize as follows: I like quality, but at some point I am not prepared to pay overly much for it! In addition, because tastes change, I am not going to buy a gun as an investment. If it turns out that way, fine, but I buy guns to shoot, and if I am afraid to use a gun because I might "ruin it's value", then that is not for me.
Peter.

This is an interesting question. When I entered the double rifle arena back in 2006, I did a lot of research and set up a prioritized criteria list of features. The following is what I considered in priority order:
- Accuracy
- Reliability ( I shoot my doubles almost every week with full power loads, so my 470 (my first double) had to be very well built)
- Key features ie intercepting sears and ejectors
- Cost ( I was really looking at something under $20K for my first double rifle)

Basically, this narrowed my search down to a Searcy Deluxe boxlock and a Heym double. I handled both and was impressed by both. Being American made was a definite plus for the Searcy. I was also able to visit Butch Searcy in Boron, shoot one of his doubles that already had a couple of thousand rounds through it (according to Butch), and see how his rifles were made. Five years later, I now own 3 Searcy doubles and have another on order. My decision to go with a Searcy over the Heym was correct fo me, but I feel I would have also been very happy with a Heym rifle. The other rifle being considered was the Merkel, and I did not choose it because of the lack of ejectors and intercepting sears.

If I had more money, I do not think I would have gone the route of an English or higher price European double. I will admit they are prettier and handle very well, but they do not have any more features nor do they shoot any better than my Searcy. If your double rifle is a hunitng tool like mine is, I contend you can get everything you need for under $20K.
Mangwana

Baskin-Robbins has 33 flavors because not everyone likes butter brickle.

The bottom line is reliability and accuracy.

Eagle One

DRSSS (.450 NE, .375 H&H, .45-70)
NRA Benefactor
SCI Life Member
SASS Life Member

I have owned Heyms and Merkels and British and German doubles and don't necessarily agree with the quality ratings. That is a subjective thing at best. Doubles have no intrinsic value only a market value. Review the days back after WWII when there was absolutely NO ammunition for these fine British Doubles that demand such high prices today. They were valued very much less. That's market value for you. I saw a photograph (actually a copy of it) the other day that sold for an astronomical amount. What gave it value. Who knows,because I surely don't. The same goes for many other prized posessions of today. Who actually values these items. In the ultimate the ones who buy them. Does that create some kind of reality of the value. You decide it's your bucks.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Thanks Mac.

Certainly everyone has to act responsibly consistent with their means. But there seems to be an underlying theme here that beyond a certain point, e.g., a Chapuis or a Merkel, that the rest is just eye wash and not value enhancing resulting in a better quality product. That is the premise that I cannot accept. The fact is that the Lexus is a better car than the Camry and anyone (well maybe virtually anyone) given the choice, price out of the equation, between the two will take the Lexus. The reason some do not buy a Lexus and instead buy the Camry is that price for the Lexus, reflecting the value enhancements put into the vehicle in terms of fit, finish, craftsmanship, amenities, etc., is something they either cannot afford to pay or do not value. That said, it does not change the fact that the Lexus is the better car of the two. Similarly just because a Merkel and a Heym both go boom when you pull the trigger does not change the fact that the Heym is a better double. It is all so intuitive that I feel that some are either being disingenous or trying to rationalize their own buying decisions. Time for me to move on . . .

Mike you are absolutely correct on every point! Nobody I've read here has said there was not value in the up grades of different brands of cars or double rifles! I think what some are missing is the question those folks are asking is the price differential between the two actually commensurate with the difference in quality? That question has nothing to do with being able to buy the more expensive one over the cheaper one in practical use terms? I see nothing disingenuous about asking that question.

.................Just call me puzzled!

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Thanks Mac.

Certainly everyone has to act responsibly consistent with their means. But there seems to be an underlying theme here that beyond a certain point, e.g., a Chapuis or a Merkel, that the rest is just eye wash and not value enhancing resulting in a better quality product. That is the premise that I cannot accept. The fact is that the Lexus is a better car than the Camry and anyone (well maybe virtually anyone) given the choice, price out of the equation, between the two will take the Lexus. The reason some do not buy a Lexus and instead buy the Camry is that price for the Lexus, reflecting the value enhancements put into the vehicle in terms of fit, finish, craftsmanship, amenities, etc., is something they either cannot afford to pay or do not value. That said, it does not change the fact that the Lexus is the better car of the two. Similarly just because a Merkel and a Heym both go boom when you pull the trigger does not change the fact that the Heym is a better double. It is all so intuitive that I feel that some are either being disingenous or trying to rationalize their own buying decisions. Time for me to move on . . .

Mike you are absolutely correct on every point! Nobody I've read here has said there was not value in the up grades of different brands of cars or double rifles! I think what some are missing is the question those folks are asking is the price differential between the two actually commensurate with the difference in quality? That question has nothing to do with being able to buy the more expensive one over the cheaper one in practical use terms? I see nothing disingenuous about asking that question.

.................Just call me puzzled!

That is a judgment each person has to make for themselves -- it is subjective not objective. There is not going to be a "right" answer. Some folks feel that cut off is with the Camry, others feel the cut off is with the Lexus, it depends solely on the individual and their subjective perception of value. But while each person may pick a different price point to declare that the price is eclipsing the value, the fact is that regardless of their subjective value perception, objectively the Lexus is a better car than the Camry. Returning to the double rifle issue, I think some on this and other threads maintain that the Merkel is the equivalent, if not better, rifle than the Heym. That is flat wrong. In their mind, the Merkel may represent a better value, but it is clearly not the better rifle.

"better value not a better rifle" covers it 100% and answers the central point of this thread.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I think some on this and other threads maintain that the Merkel is the equivalent, if not better, rifle than the Heym. That is flat wrong. In their mind, the Merkel may represent a better value, but it is clearly not the better rifle.

As much as I like my Merkel, Mike is correct on this. This is what I was trying to convey in my previous post. I hope it was taken that way.

If you are just using the rifle to shoot buffalo then the Sabati or Merkel is as good as a Holland and Hollad Deluxe, the rest is

All doublles need to kept in working order and tweeked up from time to time..

But, one should take into consideration resale value, that is where the clincher comes in and in which case were I buying a double to day I would want a good high quality English gun over any other double as I know in about 5 years after purchase I can double my money on that puppy or so it has proven to me over the last 40 years and I have bought, hunted with and sold a very large number of double rifles..The higher dollar guns make you the most money and the cheaper guns never make you a penny, you lose money on them...

That is the nature of the beast...

But, to answer your question I would opt for a Searcy, then a Merkel for a hunting rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
In their mind, the Merkel may represent a better value, but it is clearly not the better rifle.

Finally! Mike that is what we have been asking all along! IS it a better value, or do the upgrades of the Heym justify another $10K, or $11K in price?

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
"better value not a better rifle" covers it 100% and answers the central point of this thread.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
As much as I like my Merkel, Mike is correct on this. This is what I was trying to convey in my previous post. I hope it was taken that way.

The question brought up * Is the difference in price, worth it for the amount better quality offered by the more expensive rifle?* To that Mike is correct! That part is subjective! To some, maybe even most, the price difference between the two IS commensurate with the value of the extra features displayed by the more expensive rifle, and to others maybe not.


I don’t think anyone with enough brains to be allowed to own a rifle would say that a Merkel double rifle is BETTER, than a Heym!

It is amazing to me that these things cause so many heated responses! Damn it’s just a discussion! When there is no fee involved for participating in a debate I see no reason for it to make enemies. When the dust settles most will not change their views on the subject anyway! My opinion is, the real winners are the lurkers who know nothing either way are the winners, because they tend to follow what make the most sense to them, rather than starting out with preconceived notions! So at least somebody wins!

..................................................

I would take the Merkel and put the rest of my money toward a safari but Merkel or Heym, neither of them is the equal of a Krieghoff

Well maybe I have missed something but I haven't seen any real heated responses. It has been a good discussion which probably has not changed any preconceived notions, but interesting nevertheless. I don't think I own any "utility" guns except for a Savage SXS 20 ga.perhaps, so guns do have an aesthetic value for me but I am not going to pay an astronomical sum for beautiful wood, much as I enjoy looking at pictures of them. There just seems to be something better next time!
Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
I would take the Merkel and put the rest of my money toward a safari but Merkel or Heym, neither of them is the equal of a Krieghoff

....................

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
In their mind, the Merkel may represent a better value, but it is clearly not the better rifle.

Finally! Mike that is what we have been asking all along! IS it a better value, or do the upgrades of the Heym justify another $10K, or $11K in price?

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
"better value not a better rifle" covers it 100% and answers the central point of this thread.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
As much as I like my Merkel, Mike is correct on this. This is what I was trying to convey in my previous post. I hope it was taken that way.

The question brought up * Is the difference in price, worth it for the amount better quality offered by the more expensive rifle?* To that Mike is correct! That part is subjective! To some, maybe even most, the price difference between the two IS commensurate with the value of the extra features displayed by the more expensive rifle, and to others maybe not.


I don’t think anyone with enough brains to be allowed to own a rifle would say that a Merkel double rifle is BETTER, than a Heym!

It is amazing to me that these things cause so many heated responses! Damn it’s just a discussion! When there is no fee involved for participating in a debate I see no reason for it to make enemies. When the dust settles most will not change their views on the subject anyway! My opinion is, the real winners are the lurkers who know nothing either way are the winners, because they tend to follow what make the most sense to them, rather than starting out with preconceived notions! So at least somebody wins!

..................................................

I don't remember anyone saying a Merkel is better than a Heym. ??? Correct me if I'm wrong.

However, I've yet to see any substancial evidence that Heym is "better" than a Merkel. Everything Mike J. has said is purely subjective regarding fit and finish. I believe that my Merkel's fit and finish is as good as any Heym I have ever seen. I know it shoots just as good. Things such as fit/finish, classic lines, etc. is all purely subjective once you get to the Merkel/Chapuis/Heym/VC line of DR's.

What's classic to one is obsolete to another. To compare the fit/finish of a Heym 88B to a Merkel 160 sidelock is simply ridiculous. Just handle P. Smith's 160 .500 Merkel sidelock, compare it to a Heym 88B, and the fit/finish just doesn't compare in my opinion. And both can be had for about the same price.

The Merkel folks have a new 160 sidelock in .470 at the distribution center than matches any double I've ever seen to include H&H and Marcel Thys. All the features are as good or better than any other double gun out there, and has passed all the same proof tests and is properly regulated.

In my view, the increase in the price of the Heym over Merkel is purely hype and smoke/mirror. The science is just not there. And that's my opinion, and nothing more, based upon my view of reality. Just because Heym charges $5-7 grand more will not make me suck up to some perceived superiority of the Heym product or its advocates.

Having said all that, I still like the Heym and really enjoy shooting them. They are very fine DR's. But so are Merkels.

Great, sounds like we are all in violent agreement . . . the Heym is a better rifle than the Merkel.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
I would take the Merkel and put the rest of my money toward a safari but Merkel or Heym, neither of them is the equal of a Krieghoff

....................

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
I would take the Merkel and put the rest of my money toward a safari but Merkel or Heym, neither of them is the equal of a Krieghoff

....................

One thing is for damn sure! They are all better than the Blaser. And that included Sabatti.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
I would take the Merkel and put the rest of my money toward a safari but Merkel or Heym, neither of them is the equal of a Krieghoff

....................

One thing is for damn sure! They are all better than the Blaser. And that included Sabatti.

Todd, you cut me to the quick. The Blaser is the finest double rifle on the market. Just ask Biebs....

Biebs who??????????????

I am new to double rifles and always dreamed of having one. I read everything on this forum and as many books as I could on the subject prior to my purchase. I bought a Merkel 141E in 9.3x74R. For what I wanted, it was best for me. Its a really nice double rifle that will kill anything on the planet (that I want to hunt) and I can regulate it myself. Now that I have it regulated and am shooting it regularly, I truly enjoy my little double rifle.

Only the individual can decide if the brand, fluff, mechanical differences, etc. are worth the greater expense. Its all personal likes and dislikes after you get past the basic function requirements. I would never drive a Lexus as I am a Ford man. However, I love a Rolex and mine does nothing better than my Casio....except look really cool...and sometimes that's what its all about.

Happy Thanksgiving to all!