[QUOTE]
Originally Posted by Eagle One

"The bottom line is reliability and accuracy."

My Lexus RX330 has 272,000 miles on it with no corrective maintenance needed to date. It still drives like the day I purchased it.
My Searcy 470 has had a couple of thousand rounds through it, still locks up as tight as the day Butch delivered it, and shoots 2 shots inside an inch at 50 yards.
When I consider what I paid for my Lexus and my Searcy after years of using both, I submit they were real bargains.
Mangwana

Sorry Dave,

That one was low hanging fruit!

Cheers,

Todd

Todd- Fair enough. I saw the shot, and I took it! (LOL)
Mangwana

quote:

Originally posted by mdstewart:

However, I've yet to see any substancial evidence that Heym is "better" than a Merkel. Everything Mike J. has said is purely subjective regarding fit and finish.

The science is just not there.

Having said all that, I still like the Heym and really enjoy shooting them. They are very fine DR's. But so are Merkels.

Sums my feelings up exactly.

In my other thread..."the science" was ALL I was looking for.

And again...yes...I think intercepting sears is a plus for the Heym. And...I probably would prefer ejectors.

Good thread!

quote:

Originally posted by mdstewart:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
In their mind, the Merkel may represent a better value, but it is clearly not the better rifle.

Finally! Mike that is what we have been asking all along! IS it a better value, or do the upgrades of the Heym justify another $10K, or $11K in price?

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
"better value not a better rifle" covers it 100% and answers the central point of this thread.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
As much as I like my Merkel, Mike is correct on this. This is what I was trying to convey in my previous post. I hope it was taken that way.

The question brought up * Is the difference in price, worth it for the amount better quality offered by the more expensive rifle?* To that Mike is correct! That part is subjective! To some, maybe even most, the price difference between the two IS commensurate with the value of the extra features displayed by the more expensive rifle, and to others maybe not.


I don’t think anyone with enough brains to be allowed to own a rifle would say that a Merkel double rifle is BETTER, than a Heym!

It is amazing to me that these things cause so many heated responses! Damn it’s just a discussion! When there is no fee involved for participating in a debate I see no reason for it to make enemies. When the dust settles most will not change their views on the subject anyway! My opinion is, the real winners are the lurkers who know nothing either way are the winners, because they tend to follow what make the most sense to them, rather than starting out with preconceived notions! So at least somebody wins!

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I don't remember anyone saying a Merkel is better than a Heym. ??? Correct me if I'm wrong.

However, I've yet to see any substancial evidence that Heym is "better" than a Merkel. Everything Mike J. has said is purely subjective regarding fit and finish. I believe that my Merkel's fit and finish is as good as any Heym I have ever seen. I know it shoots just as good. Things such as fit/finish, classic lines, etc. is all purely subjective once you get to the Merkel/Chapuis/Heym/VC line of DR's.

What's classic to one is obsolete to another. To compare the fit/finish of a Heym 88B to a Merkel 160 sidelock is simply ridiculous. Just handle P. Smith's 160 .500 Merkel sidelock, compare it to a Heym 88B, and the fit/finish just doesn't compare in my opinion. And both can be had for about the same price.

The Merkel folks have a new 160 sidelock in .470 at the distribution center than matches any double I've ever seen to include H&H and Marcel Thys. All the features are as good or better than any other double gun out there, and has passed all the same proof tests and is properly regulated.

In my view, the increase in the price of the Heym over Merkel is purely hype and smoke/mirror. The science is just not there. And that's my opinion, and nothing more, based upon my view of reality. Just because Heym charges $5-7 grand more will not make me suck up to some perceived superiority of the Heym product or its advocates.

Having said all that, I still like the Heym and really enjoy shooting them. They are very fine DR's. But so are Merkels.

Couldn't agree more with what you just posted.

I just wunder why they send that 160 Merkel to USA and I am still waiting for my since 3 month. That is really uncool.

quote:

Originally posted by Robert Wilde:

quote:

by mdstewart:
I don't remember anyone saying a Merkel is better than a Heym. ??? Correct me if I'm wrong.

However, I've yet to see any substancial evidence that Heym is "better" than a Merkel.<<SNIP

What's classic to one is obsolete to another. [COLOR:RED]To compare the fit/finish of a Heym 88B to a Merkel 160 sidelock is simply ridiculous.[COLOR] Just handle P. Smith's 160 .500 Merkel sidelock, compare it to a Heym 88B, and the fit/finish just doesn't compare in my opinion. And both can be had for about the same price.

The Merkel folks have a new 160 sidelock in .470 at the distribution center than matches any double I've ever seen to include H&H and Marcel Thys. All the features are as good or better than any other double gun out there, and has passed all the same proof tests and is properly regulated.

In my view, the increase in the price of the Heym over Merkel is purely hype and smoke/mirror. The science is just not there. And that's my opinion, and nothing more, based upon my view of reality. Just because Heym charges $5-7 grand more will not make me suck up to some perceived superiority of the Heym product or its advocates.

Having said all that, I still like the Heym and really enjoy shooting them. They are very fine DR's. But so are Merkels.

Couldn't agree more with what you just posted.

Robert Wilde ,I almost agree with everything mdstewart said above as well, with one exception!

First off let me make myself clear here! I’m a dyed in the wool Merkel, and Heym lover! I have owned both and like them both as long as we are talking the same level rifle as far as features go on the working guns level, the 88B Heym does have the upper hand. However Mr. Stewart is comparing apples to oranges ! The 88B is the working gun at Heym, while the 160 Sidelock Merkel is top of the line.
Heym 88 PH


Merkel 160-A


The comparison on feature level between these two is, as I said apples and oranges, However when you compare the price of the two you are getting the two rifles at about the same price. So again the question is at the price point of the bottom of the line for Heym, and the top price for the Merkel which is the best buy?

Having asked the above question, let me say that IMO, comparing bottom (88B PH) to bottom,(140-2 Merkel) I’d rather have the Heym (88BPH). However is the price difference between these two commensurate with the difference in fit and finish? The bigger question is, why would most people buy the Heym 88BPH over the Merkel 160 Side lock at the same price! I for one would still rather have the Heym because simply on a personal level I do not like side lock rifles no matter who made them but that has nothing to do with the quality only personal preference! That however doesn't answer the question of which is the best value for money spent!

You see the more you look at these two rifle makers and the more you answer the questions about them, the more questions seem to go unanswered!

As it happens to be normal,that this thread has changed nobody's mind on what they percieve to be the best buy for quality, or the best buy for the money spent!

IMO when you get in front of a mad cape buffalo Neither of them are throw-aways!
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Wow! Where did you guys find that photo?

I think that's the second PH made - it even had a plastic grip cap.

Wood quality has gone up a bit too.

AND AWAY WE GO...WHICH IS BETTER..

I suppose you need to define for what use..I feel as comfortable with a Merkel as I do a Holland or any other double..I pull the trigger it goes bang if I do my upkeep...In fact for a hunting rifle I prefer the Searcys, they have never failed me if I did my part and they are incredibly accurate.

That said I wouldn't give a nickle for any double other than a English gun if I planned on getting my money back at a profit..every one I have owned I doubled my money within at least 5 years and many times within 6 months.

I wouldn't have a Heym, Chapius, or especially a Kriegoff..and that's my perogative. To me only a Searcy or an English gun or my all time favorite double, a older Francotte.

As the owner of one of only two doubles ever personally signed by Butch Searcy, all I can say is "AMEN".

subsailor:

That sure is a beauty!

quote:

Originally posted by new_guy:


Wow! Where did you guys find that photo?

I think that's the second PH made - it even had a plastic grip cap.

Wood quality has gone up a bit too.

Chris, I think that is a picture of one of the prototypes and was a picture I had seen when talk of the PH model was in the works, and I found it on some old website! Still I'd love to have that prototype chambered for 450-400 3".

It is a far cry from the PH you just posted I'd say, but I'd still love to own the old one! The one you just posted is one nice rifle!
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