I do not post here much but often read and learn. It is obvious that I am hard headed or slow to learn because I was stupid and decided to send J White Gunsmithing of Guilford, Maine a Cz Bobwhite 12 ga. for conversion to 45-120-3.25 double rifle. I did my research and thought I was on solid ground. After in excess of four years and 3000 USD later, I received the finished product. At least he made a new mono-block and left the original 12 ga. alone.

[URL= ]fine caliber stamp[/URL]
[URL= ]muzzle underside[/URL]
[URL= ]front sight[/URL]
[URL= ]rer site/rib[/URL]
[URL= ]muzzle[/URL]
[URL= ]muzzle[/URL]
[URL= ]chamber end[/URL]
[URL= ]orginal and new[/URL]

I'm sorry for you. It hurts to be taken like that. I believe that I would put the word out every place I could to make sure nobody else got hammered.

That makes me sick to my stomach to look at. REALLY!

By no definition of the term, is the man who did this work a "GUNSMITH" !!

Thank you for posting this warning

W T F

Sorry you got taken in on this

The Remington front sight isn't even close to the worst thing. I wouldn't fire this thing if tied to a tire with a pull cord

I feel badly for you man--thanks for coming forward with this. You just anted up for some good gun karma down the road...

I think I'd be finding a lawyer that's a gun nut to try and get some of your money back.
That's pretty sad work!

ELeeton:
So sorry about this mate, but don't let the son of a bitch get away with this. I have seen crap like this often throughout the years and the customer rolls over. Please allow me to make some suggestions and forgive me if I step out of bounds on an issue that is none of my business.
1. Get 3-10 detailed written appraisals of the work from good, qualified gunsmiths. I bet you can find some or recommendations on this site.
2. Take the papers and your documentation of payment to the BBB and file a complaint. You may get a hearing with the "gunsmith" and mention he will be liable for a huge lawsuit if the gun fails upon firing. You want your money back and he can have the barrels back.
3. Contact the Attorney General in Maine to see if any other reports his his work have come through that office. I would guess if this is par for the course others have complained.
4. If the above fails, go to small claims court. You won't have any problem getting folks on your side. I have an appraisal service for double rifles and I will write something for you, very detailed, for no charge.
5. I bet you can get some legal advise on this site. There are lawyers here who should assist a fellow double rifle shooter with a quick chat or letter.
6. Let J. White see this site. Any man who would turn out work such as this is a fool. Not only for his reputation and integrity, but the chance of the rifle coming apart upon ignition. You have a good comparison in the original 12-gauge barrels and his boat anchor.
7. Send the photos to good double rifle builders such as Butch Searcy for his opinion.
You can guess from my post I get rather pissed at guys like J. White. Give him both barrels of hell and let us know how it turns out. PM me if you wish my written appraisal.
Cheers and good luck.
Cal
calpappas.com

A double rifle is just one of those things that you cannot do on the cheap.

It is also one of those things that is just not a do it yourself project, especially for a novice.

If you want a good serviceable double, your best choice is to buy one from a Double Rifle company, that makes a LOT of them.

Wow. Look at the difference in the lugs between the rifle barrels and the shotgun barrels. Does it lock up tight? If it was mine I'd be afraid to shoot it.

Who recommended him?

Disaster? I'd say that was pretty good work for a blind man missing both index fingers and thumbs. That is the case isn't it... Sorry, but in all seriousness. That was just plain wrong of him to do that.

you have my deepest sympathies.

I think the best place for redress is in the courts.

Rich
Sua Sponte

Cal

I like your 1 - 7 but I'd like to add an 8.


8. I'd take it to his workshop and shove it so far up where the sun don't shine, he'd never do another gunsmith job again because of the pain he'd remember.

I can't believe someone could do work like that.


Makes you think that maybe the US does need proof laws and guns to be proofed if modified by a gunsmith.

If the gunsmith had any integrity, he'd have just returned the original shotgun/barrels and your money.... and with an apology.

That said, has anyone even attempted to shoot the rifle? I sure the heck wouldn't! It looks as if someone was making a sick joke.

Maybe the guy made the one below, too?... except the "machine" work is superior.

Sorry you had to go through this. Man that makes me sick. This guy couldn't even be called a "Kitchen Table Gunsmith".
I wouldn't even want to make a property corner out of that set of barrels if you can call them that.

Cal pappas.

Sound advice. I contacted the Maine Attorney General - Consumer Mediation Service last year. They don't do much and need several complaints. They did show the paperwork and the complaint I filed against Jim to him. If I had the funds I would have flown up to Maine. My situation between the start of the project and now has changed such that it was not possible for me to fly up to Maine from Texas just to visit with the gunsmith. Small claims court in Maine requires and attorney if you do not reside in state. Another out of state fellow is in this predicament and contacted an attorney. $10,000 and assured victory. So if I win and Jim cannot pay it really isn't a victory.

NE 450 No2 $3000 for the work wasn't cheap to me. I expected a utilitarian, better than a Spartan type of product in a cartridge I liked. What can I say in my defense. I was blinded by a lifelong ambition to own a working DR and finally had that goal in my grasp.

The job seen from here looks fine. He could fix my wheelbarrel at any time.

I guess for $3000.00 you get what you pay for. It sucks though that it happens.

quote:

Originally posted by ELeeton:
After in excess of four years and 3000 USD later, I received the finished product.
[URL= ]fine caliber stamp[/URL]
[URL= ]muzzle underside[/URL]
[URL= ]front sight[/URL]
[URL= ]rer site/rib[/URL]
[URL= ]muzzle[/URL]
[URL= ]muzzle[/URL]
[URL= ]chamber end[/URL]
[URL= ]orginal and new[/URL]

This is the perfect example of the phrase “ DOUBLE RIFLES AND CHEAP DO NOT BELONG IN THE SAME SENTENCE!

If this thing is quality smith work, then this Biakal 45-70 at $750 below should be considered equal to a H&H Royal!



...........................................................................................................

Looking at these pictures makes me sick! This guy should be shunned as a gunmaker. I think that I could do as good with a horse shoe rasp, a little solder, and a case of PBR.

MacD37,

Your ending statement is the reason for this post. We like to think that we have found that one honest guy who delivers honest, quality work at an affordable price. The money I had invested wasn't cheap to me and I have/had seen (five-six years ago when this saga started) shotgun to DR conversions similarly priced and of a quality I found acceptable. I've seen a few listed in .405 Win that looked good. Right now I wish I had a Sabatti as I just handled one of those last week with no apparent muzzle alteration. Maybe this is my ignorance rearing its ugly head again.

Bottom line...learn from my mistakes. Think twice about dealing with someone that you cannot afford to go and visit.

A high schooler in metal shop would have done better work. I cannot believe what I see in those pics. Condolences, but thanks for sharing as it might save someone else the pain.

Gents:
Look up the gunsmith at jwhitegunsmithing.com
From the site he seems to do good work, I can't imagine what happened here!
Cal

Holy SHIZNICHT!!!

That dude should be banned from ever having legal possession of an erector set or any type of tools for life!

This is a outstanding reason why well made doubles
are not cheap. $3K spent a a pile of crap for it.

My apologies for getting shaftedby a suppoded gunsmith. WOW.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Gents:
Look up the gunsmith at jwhitegunsmithing.com
From the site he seems to do good work, I can't imagine what happened here!
Cal

Somebody wrote a review of the work: http://jwhitegunsmithing.com/g....html#bn-service-top

~

the phrase that comes to mind is: i couldnt spell gunshmit now i is one. what a travestry.

That looks scary. If that is the "pretty" outside, then what do the "warts" on the inside look like?


I really feel for you. You could have got a Sabatti 9.3Xx74 for that money!

NakiHunter,

I was at the home office last week and stopped by Cabela's. I saw a few Sabatti's and had the same thought. Too bad they weren't out in 2007-8.

This is just painful to look at. I so sorry this happened. I looked at the guys web page and he does decent work...He's no Don Burkhart but then you didn't pay Don Burkhart prices. It looks like you have a shooter but don't push the loads.....for the record he needs a Gibbs headslap for that caliber stamp.

Cheshire,

The Gibb's head slap is a CSI reference, correct?
From the load data he provided and regulated with it looks as the loads are a bit over 38,000 psi. If as you suggest the load should be reduced that will result in lower velocity and potentially the need to re-regulate. I would send the rifle back to Jim but only for a refund not for more work. I do not think I could find a competent gunsmith willing to re-regulate i.e. fix another's poor work.

Here is a quote from his website

"We specialize in making one of a kind rifles that fit and perform beyond the expectations our customers have. If it is a classic style like a single shot for dangerous game, a tack driving varmit rifle for shooting those 500 yard wood chucks/coyotes or a deer rifle that makes you the envy of hunting camp, we are up for the challenge."

One of a kind is right. The world doesn't need 2 of these.

quote:

Originally posted by ELeeton:
MacD37,

Your ending statement is the reason for this post. We like to think that we have found that one honest guy who delivers honest, quality work at an affordable price. The money I had invested wasn't cheap to me and I have/had seen (five-six years ago when this saga started) shotgun to DR conversions similarly priced and of a quality I found acceptable. I've seen a few listed in .405 Win that looked good. Right now I wish I had a Sabatti as I just handled one of those last week with no apparent muzzle alteration. Maybe this is my ignorance rearing its ugly head again.

Bottom line...learn from my mistakes. Think twice about dealing with someone that you cannot afford to go and visit.

ELeeton. I think you misunderstand my meaning in my post! I was not ,in any way, putting you down but, like you, I was appalled by the quality of this amateur’s so-called work. Considering the wording from his web-site posted by Brain1 below anyone would likely be suckered into this trap, and I thank you for posting the pictures of this monstrosity.
I certainly hope you haven’t shot this thing, and I doubt the so-called gun smith fired it either. I have doubt this thing would stay closed when fired, and with that in mind, I doubt this thing was regulated because it would have to be fired to regulate it.

It is my guess that if he attempted to regulate the thing, he simply placed a scope zeroing laser in the barrels and adjusted them on a target and brazed the spacer in. Anyone who knows anything about double rifles knows this does not work. This can be used to get a starting point but not for final regulation.

I’m very sorry you got suckered into this, but I would certainly take this shade tree nail bender to small claims court along with the barrels and a list of appraisals to give him his barrels back and get every penny of your money back.

I’ve seen some shoddy work in my 76 years, but I can’t remember a poorer example of rifle work in my life!

quote:

Originally posted by Brain1:
Here is a quote from his website

"We specialize in making one of a kind rifles that fit and perform beyond the expectations our customers have. If it is a classic style like a single shot for dangerous game, a tack driving varmit rifle for shooting those 500 yard wood chucks/coyotes or a deer rifle that makes you the envy of hunting camp, we are up for the challenge."

One of a kind is right. The world doesn't need 2 of these.

................................................................................

quote:

Originally posted by Cheshire:
This is just painful to look at. I so sorry this happened. I looked at the guys web page and he does decent work...He's no Don Burkhart but then you didn't pay Don Burkhart prices. It looks like you have a shooter but don't push the loads .....for the record he needs a Gibbs headslap for that caliber stamp.

It does not look like a "shooter" to me. It looks like a disaster waiting to explode in a shooters face. Send it back a demand a full refund.

BTW,

Here is his Facebook page.

https://www.facebook.com/jwhitegunsmithing

quote:

Originally posted by Cheshire:
This is just painful to look at. I so sorry this happened. I looked at the guys web page and he does decent work...He's no Don Burkhart but then you didn't pay Don Burkhart prices. It looks like you have a shooter but don't push the loads.....for the record he needs a Gibbs headslap for that caliber stamp.

Cheshire, he doesn't need a Gibbs HEADSLAP??? what he needs is to get out of the gunsmithing busines, along with a good butt kicking!
Anyone who would fire that thing is a chapter or two short of a full book!

This must be a joke? Anybody seen an comment from J White?

Gents:
I just posted a comment on the Facebook page and completed an appraisal of the barrels for Mr. Leeton.
Cal

This fiasco is a perfect example of a warning that has been posted hundreds of times on this web-site, and others for years! That warning is to never let any gunsmith work on a double rifle or even think of having one build a double rifle who is not well known in the double rifle community.

Though many gunsmiths are well known for their single barrel work, most of them simply do not understand double rifles. Some of these smiths can build a ½ MOA bolt or single shot rifles, that simply doesn’t mean they can build a double rifle that is worth owning. In the case that started this thread I wouldn’t trust this guy to work on a Daisey BB gun, much less a double rifle.

There is a reason double rifle cost so much! While a bolt action can be re-barreled, stocked, and be made to shoot very well, by most smiths, that is because this only requires a basic knowledge of machine work, and an understanding of math along with a few tricks of the trade. That level of knowledge of gun making does not translate into enough skill to build a double rifle, as is seen in this case.

The double rifle is a special animal that requires a large amount of hand fitting that one simply doesn’t get in a few months of a gun smith school, and machine shop training. It is my opinion that even the instructors in those schools rarely, if ever, even understand the regulation process, much less have the very complex skills needed for the fitting of action to barrel sets .

Twenty years ago there were no more than ten men in the USA who were even capable of properly regulating a double rifle, and certainly not capable of building a double rifle from scratch. A few could mono-block old shotgun barrels with rifle barrels, but the regulation was usually non-existent, because they had zero idea of what was needed to make a double rifle shoot properly. I’ve seen many examples of double rifle made on shotgun actions that looked good but were lucky to place a bullet from each barrel in the same county. The barrels posted above certainly do not look good, because they are NOT good, and in fact are not even safe to shoot, though I doubt they would shoot well even if safe.

Anyone who would allow an abortion, like those barrels, to get out of his shop along with the gall to charge a man $3K for the privilege, is certainly not a smith I would trust to do any work for me. He needs to take a good plumber’s course and get out of the gunsmith business because if the above is an example of his work, he is going to get some maimed or killed.

………………………………………………..This tread needs to be posted on every gun related web-site in the world! I’d rather fight a grizzly bear with a pin knife than to fire that thing!

............................................................................

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
Anyone who would allow an abortion, like those barrels, to get out of his shop along with the gall to charge a man $3K for the privilege, is certainly not a smith I would trust to do any work for me. He needs to take a good plumber’s course and get out of the gunsmith business because if the above is an example of his work, he is going to get some maimed or killed.

………………………………………………..This tread needs to be posted on every gun related web-site in the world! I’d rather fight a grizzly bear with a pin knife than to fire that thing!

............................................................................

Mac,
Are you sure you want him working on your plumbing?? I wouldnt! He obviously does not have one ounce of integrity! He is the lowest of the low in my book. He has willingly put his client in danger. There is no possible excuse for this.