If properly looked after, how many rounds does a person expect a big bore double rifle to last before it starts to loosen up?

I've been following this and other forums on double rifles, and would certainly like to obtain one some day, however I was reading that someone was surprised that a 470NE with 6000 rounds through it was still working well. Is that unusual?

I always thought for the money a person should be getting a gun that is nearly impossible to wear out, but I'm wondering if I'm wrong on that?

Any thoughts?

No, it's not or wouldn't be unusual but it depends on the action IMHO.

One of the Webley's - no worries, a Greener type Cross bolted action,
I have my doubts.

Quite a few DR's over here in Aus would have fired over 5000 rounds in 20 years.


Remember, years ago things were built to last, not to break like today. Think of the Shotguns out there o the same actions ad how long they last.

.

I wouldn't be surprised if a double did last 6000 rounds or more. Considering the relatively low pressures of around 40,000 PSI and 2100 +/- fps velocities.

Scar270, welcome to the AR Forum! When you think about it, 6,000 rounds; that's 300 boxes (of 20 rounds) of ammunition! Since most DRs are in a caliber that doesn't exactly invite "plinking", I wouldn't worry about wearing one out.

Biebs

Or a few (6 - 10) competitions every year for 20 years. Not out of the ordinary, at least not over here considering it has been going on since the early 80's.

The number of rounds a quality double rifle will take and still be tight and on face depends on several things just like any other firearm!

First off, the cartridge chambered in the double has a great deal to do with the long life of any firearm! Many bolt rifles last only a short time due to the cartridge it shoots. High intensity rounds like the ULTRAS and large capacity and high-pressure rounds like some of the Weatherby rounds, and many wildcat super speed rounds burn out barrels very quickly. With these types of rifles the barrels are what goes away very quickly.

Those rounds have no place in a double rifle. The design is best used with low-pressure rounds, and large slow bullets, that are very easy on, not only barrels, but actions as well. A proper double rifle should always be chambered for flanged (rimmed) cartridges, with large capacity cases with heavy bullets over moderate powder charges for 2000 to 2400 fps producing around 35000 PSI chamber pressure. This fixes the pressure problem, and those bullets traveling at less than 2500 fps in .450 bore or larger develop very close the magic 5000 FPE or above, that is the sweet spot for dangerous game.

All that being said, the key to a properly chambered double rifle’s long life is proper care and feeding of it! The most often cause of double rifles shooting “OFF FACE” is poor care by the owner. Hinge and hook surfaces must be maintained in a clean and well-lubricated condition with the proper compounds! I have one double rifle that was sold out of the London Westley Richards store in 1892 and is still on face today. I have no idea how many rounds have gone down the tube, but considering the round it is chambered for .500/450#1 Express was most often used for red stag shooting so is sure to have had some shooting in it’s time. I also have several that were made around the turn of the 20th century that are still very tight and on face, one of which I have personally put several hundred rounds through, and the rifle shows sign of extensive field use long before I bought it.

I guess what I’m saying to you is, if you buy new, and buy with proper chambering, take care of it properly it will out live you and your grand kids! No worries Mate!

When you buy your rifle put the DRSS tag in your signature line where ever you post! Be aware, however, these things are addictive, and nobody I know has ever bought only one in a lifetime!

............................................... .................................

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:When you buy your rifle put the DRSS tag in your signature line where ever you post! Be aware, however, these things are addictive, and nobody I know has ever bought only one

Yes Sir Mac. I'm still looking for a support group! "My name is Don"....."Hi Don!" Just can't find one. Oh well...

Assume the gun stays on face, at some point the rifling in the barrels will be worn out. How fast that happens would depend on the barrel steel, type of bullets, powder, velocity, etc

I recal Clem Coetsee wearing out barrels on his 500/465 and sending it back for a new set. He did ALOT of practice with it and was shooting the last generation of steel jacketed Kynocks. Then he got a supply of A Square Mono's and after a couple of years had to get another set of barrels...Good job the spare barrels were on a Government purchase order

If you want maximum life out of your barrels (over 5000 per barrel) shoot soft soft points through them for practice. Ie no Steel jacketed softs or other 'hard' soft points like the swift A frame. Woodleigh Soft points cause under half the amount of barrel expansion that the steel jacketed woodleigh solids do.

I have no idea how much wear difference there is between 'hard' and 'soft' bullets (other than the A square which wore out a barrel in a thousand rounds or so) but one of the current research projects in balistics is to show that most wear and barrel heating comes from barrel expansion rather than from friction or the heating effects of the gas. I am not convinced but have read the arguments and they certainly warrent the time and money that is being put in to fully investigate the matter.

I think it is undenable that high pressure, high temeprature gas causes throat errosion and unless you are loading chordite you are not going to be experiencing either of those in any Fanged double cartridge.

Thanks all for the replies.

Barrel life I'm not terribly concerned about, as most of the rounds a gun I buy will see will be cast bullets for plinking. As said, in something along the lines of a 450 3 1/4" with cast bullets the barrel life should be excellent, that's why I was worried about the life of the action itself.

While I don't have a big double yet, I tend to shoot anything I have a fair amount, and with as much as I expect to love my double rifle if I ever get one I'm sure it will be no different.

What has gotten me even more hooked on double rifles lately has been shooting gophers with a friend. He has a pair of K-guns in 500/416 that I've been casting bullets for, and we've put over 400 through them shooting gophers this year so far. The limiting factors being he only has so much brass we can load up per trip, and he's fairly busy, if it was my own gun, I'm sure I'd have much more then that through it already this year.

Of course I'm not buying it just for gophers, but there is something satisfying about shooting a 6-8" by 2-3" target with the big guns.

Bailey's falling block really interests me because I don't think you could ever loosen up that falling block action.

One thing about it, I have lots of time to contemplate, as I don't see one entering my life for a little while yet, unfortunately.

If you can afford enough money for all that ammunition, why can't you afford a tune up for your rifle?

You won't drive your sports car for years and not expect some new brakes, tires, an alignment or two, etc. When a SxS shotgun goes "off-face", people complain about the $125 it will cost to be put back "on face". If a 50+ year old shotgun of mine goes off face, I'll gladly have it fixed because it has certainly provided more then $125 worth of memories. After all, we're only talking about less then two flats of shotgun shells.

Like your car, preventative maintanence is your friend. Avoid doing the stupid things and you will have something your grandkids will pass on to their heirs. A little money for tune ups here and there is just part of the price of admission.

I have seen doubles go off the face with one shot. One overload will do it..I have seen them go off face in 300 to 400 shots and most get loose somewhere around that. I am not sure at what point they become dangerous. I have shot some pretty loose doubles without problems..

Those "off the face" can be fixed pretty easy most of the time. The elephant hunters sent there doubles back to London every year to be reblacked and checked out..I usually do this but not reblack, just a good check out..

Barrels, I guess you could shoot one out and solids would be very hard on bores. however I have seen many shot out double bores that looked like the inside of a tramp steemers smoke stack that would group tiny little 1.5 to 2 inch groups all day long, so shot out has many meanings. I know some big bores will shoot out barrels pretty quick and some 458s used for culling went bad at 500 rounds, so a lot of varibles to be considered. I suspect its a crap shoot at any rate..don't let the barrels get too hot is the best way to maintain good barrels.

I am a big enthusiast of DRs but never owned one...still dreaming...

One well known collector hunter who used to post here was Sinner / generalwars. He often said that the Holland & Holland doubles above 500 cal went off face after 50 rounds. In fact he discussed this with the Chairman of H&H and explained the reason why he ordered a Wesley Richards. I found this very interesting and quite strange that H&H did not act on it. Of course I had read elsewhere of this same problem with the real BIG bore H&H rifles.

The other issue is the cost of changing the hinge pin & putting the rifle back on face - I understand that it is not very expensive even if done by H&H. Any reasonable gunsmith would be able to do it for less than $1000, may be even half that.

Thanks for the further information, I didn't realize guns could be repaired that easily, although talk of 4-500 rounds is still not very much.

If it's $1000 to fix that's $2 per shot just in gun wear, if buying $25/shell factory that may be minor, but in comparison to $0.50 handloads with cast bullets, that's still considerable. Makes the falling block action look better all the time.

On the other hand if a person can get 5000 rounds before they have to fix it, that is a bit more reasonable to have a $1k touchup at that point.

A well designed modern guns should last much longer than 500 rounds. I have a customer that has shot thousands of rounds through his V-C gun and still feels tight with no sign of going off face.

This might be helpful from a very experienced double shooter as posted in another thread:

quote:

Originally posted by south paw:
My view is somewhat jaded, as I am on my 4th V.C.
For me the VC's shoot very well, even as a left-hand shooter, shooting right hand guns, I have taken many Vintager awards; including setting two course records(2008 & 2010).http://blog.verney-carron.com/Blog/USA-Vintagers-Side-by-Side-Competition To date my VC 450x400 3" has over 4200 rounds through it. In a word, it is "tight". The top lever is still off to one side indicating many many thousands to come. This rifle has come with me to Africa twice, taken elephant and many plains game with zero failures. My best guess on a reface job for this rifle, around 10,000 rounds, maybe longer if well maintained.
My newest VC landed this spring, a custom built, left hand 450 3 1/4". It is artfully engraved in the English tradition with a long list of options. 380 rounds to date, zero failures, but then none are expected.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
I am a big enthusiast of DRs but never owned one...still dreaming...

One well known collector hunter who used to post here was Sinner / generalwars. He often said that the Holland & Holland doubles above 500 cal went off face after 50 rounds. In fact he discussed this with the Chairman of H&H and explained the reason why he ordered a Wesley Richards. I found this very interesting and quite strange that H&H did not act on it. Of course I had read elsewhere of this same problem with the real BIG bore H&H rifles.

The other issue is the cost of changing the hinge pin & putting the rifle back on face - I understand that it is not very expensive even if done by H&H. Any reasonable gunsmith would be able to do it for less than $1000, may be even half that.

It depends on the hinge pin arrangement.

If it is an enclosed hinge pin (ie it can't be knocked out),
then the hook needs to be tightened.

.

I read/heard that even in bolt rifles, after about 1200-1500 ,accuracy starts to dip.So,how is that some of the double rifles still shoot straight after shooting 6000 rounds through them?I am not commenting but asking for your opinions on this.Thank you for your replies.



Best-
Locksley,R.

quote:

Originally posted by RobinOLocksley:
I read/heard that even in bolt rifles, after about 1200-1500 ,accuracy starts to dip.So,how is that some of the double rifles still shoot straight after shooting 6000 rounds through them?I am not commenting but asking for your opinions on this.Thank you for your replies.



Best-
Locksley,R.

The problem is, you are compareing action types, instead of the REAL difference... and that is, the cartridge.

Most bolt actions are loaded with high pressure cartridges, and most break open guns, are loaded with low/medium pressure cartridges.

That's the difference right there...

DM

Thank you for your reply.However, I read that the accuracy dip in the bolt rifles after certain number of rounds is due to barrel wear than issues with the bolt. So,even with the DR action holding up to the use, how do the barrels cope?


Best-
Locksley,R

Your right it's the barrels that wear, but the reason they wear is high pressure cartridges. Overbore guns, (big cartridge, small bullet) are worse for this.

A 257STW will wear out a barrel faster then an 8mm remington magnum, even though they both have the same parent case, pushing all that gas through a .257 hole instead of a .323 hole will wear on the barrel faster.

Many of the bolt guns will use cartridges that run at 50-60,000psi with small calibers vs big bore double guns that run at 35-40,000psi and have large holes.

If you have a double rifle in 7x57, barrel life wouldn't be any greater then in a bolt gun. Likewise a bolt gun or a Ruger #1 chambered for 450 3 1/4" is going to have great barrel life just like the double guns.

Also when your reading about accuracy issues after 1200 rounds, that's probably either rifles that are shot a lot in succession, so the barrels get very warm, or bench rest guns, where they want groups that are sub 0.1"

Most standard hunting rifles are going to see several thousand rounds if treated well before seeing a real degradation in accuracy. Using something like a 45-70 with cast bullets, I suspect you could get 10's of thousands of rounds. Cast bullets being softer then jacketed so further reducing wear.

One more thing, in a double rifle you have two barrels to wear out, so they should take longer.

Hopefully that explains why in a big bore double rifle, barrel wear is not something I'm concerned about, I fully intend to shoot mostly cast bullets, other then for hunting, and expect that with big holes and low pressures the barrels should last 10,000+ rounds each. Even then if the groups from each barrel grow by 25%, is that a big deal on a large game rifle?

However the action is what concerns me, a bolt action rifle will go 10's of thousands of rounds. People often rebarrel the same action many times if they do wear the barrel out.

In a double rifle it's always the lockup everyone is concerned about, not the barrel condition. (An exception probably for older ones that would have shot corrosive or bp ammo).

In summary it's the cartridge choice that causes the barrel wear, not the action. Generally speaking bolt actions are chambered for cartridges that are harder on barrels then most chamberings offered in double rifles.

Hope that helps.

The problem is that there is no pat answer to how long any barrel will last, lots of varibles determine that so its really what it is and one has to live with it..I know a lot of 458s have apparantly shot out there bores in 500 rounds, I recently read that..

Another is at what point is a barrel actually shot out? To me it is still good until the groups get out there to about 4 inches at 100 yards with a bolt gun and that is lots of rounds, to a benchrester that means old betsy opened up .125 or whatever. I have owned double rifles that have bores so ugly you wouldn't believe it that shot around an inch..95% of shooters never know when a double is off face, and they get by fine for years that way.

Probably the best answer is when you notice things are heywire!

quote:

Originally posted by Scar270:
Your right it's the barrels that wear, but the reason they wear is high pressure cartridges. Overbore guns, (big cartridge, small bullet) are worse for this.

A 257STW will wear out a barrel faster then an 8mm remington magnum, even though they both have the same parent case, pushing all that gas through a .257 hole instead of a .323 hole will wear on the barrel faster.

Many of the bolt guns will use cartridges that run at 50-60,000psi with small calibers vs big bore double guns that run at 35-40,000psi and have large holes.

If you have a double rifle in 7x57, barrel life wouldn't be any greater then in a bolt gun. Likewise a bolt gun or a Ruger #1 chambered for 450 3 1/4" is going to have great barrel life just like the double guns.

Also when your reading about accuracy issues after 1200 rounds, that's probably either rifles that are shot a lot in succession, so the barrels get very warm, or bench rest guns, where they want groups that are sub 0.1"

Most standard hunting rifles are going to see several thousand rounds if treated well before seeing a real degradation in accuracy. Using something like a 45-70 with cast bullets, I suspect you could get 10's of thousands of rounds. Cast bullets being softer then jacketed so further reducing wear.

One more thing, in a double rifle you have two barrels to wear out, so they should take longer.

Hopefully that explains why in a big bore double rifle, barrel wear is not something I'm concerned about, I fully intend to shoot mostly cast bullets, other then for hunting, and expect that with big holes and low pressures the barrels should last 10,000+ rounds each. Even then if the groups from each barrel grow by 25%, is that a big deal on a large game rifle?

However the action is what concerns me, a bolt action rifle will go 10's of thousands of rounds. People often rebarrel the same action many times if they do wear the barrel out.

In a double rifle it's always the lockup everyone is concerned about, not the barrel condition. (An exception probably for older ones that would have shot corrosive or bp ammo).

In summary it's the cartridge choice that causes the barrel wear, not the action. Generally speaking bolt actions are chambered for cartridges that are harder on barrels then most chamberings offered in double rifles.

Hope that helps.

I am very glad that I asked.Thank you for your reply.I learned a few things.

Best-
Locksley,R.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
The problem is that there is no pat answer to how long any barrel will last, lots of varibles determine that so its really what it is and one has to live with it..I know a lot of 458s have apparantly shot out there bores in 500 rounds, I recently read that..

Another is at what point is a barrel actually shot out? To me it is still good until the groups get out there to about 4 inches at 100 yards with a bolt gun and that is lots of rounds, to a benchrester that means old betsy opened up .125 or whatever. I have owned double rifles that have bores so ugly you wouldn't believe it that shot around an inch..95% of shooters never know when a double is off face, and they get by fine for years that way.

Probably the best answer is when you notice things are heywire!

I'd agree on the barrel life being very subjective.

I didn't realize doubles could be off face and still be quite safe to use.

quote:

Originally posted by Scar270:

I'd agree on the barrel life being very subjective.

I didn't realize doubles could be off face and still be quite safe to use.

Re 2nd sentance, up to a point.

The thing to remember about DR's that are off the face, the more you use them the more they become loose as they are not locked up tight when fired with the obvious consequences.

That's why it is so important to get them tightened if they start to come loose.

.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:

quote:

Originally posted by Scar270:

I'd agree on the barrel life being very subjective.

I didn't realize doubles could be off face and still be quite safe to use.

Re 2nd sentance, up to a point.

The thing to remember about DR's that are off the face, the more you use them the more they become loose as they are not locked up tight when fired with the obvious consequences.

That's why it is so important to get them tightened if they start to come loose.

.

Thanks for the correction.

Scar

One more thing re loose DR's

Apart from wearing the joints of the DR at a faster rate from being loose,
when fired the ammo / cases don't have as much support, the result is they stretch more and you are more likely to have a problem with case head separation.

And of course with a loose gun, where does the gas go with a case head separation ? In the general direction of your face !!!

.

The title of this thread keeps grabbing my eye..."How Many Rounds Does a Double Rifle....". It looks like someone is going to ask "how many rounds does a double rifle hold"!!! I was going to refer them to Don Soter...even HE could answer that...right Don!!! :-)

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
The title of this thread keeps grabbing my eye..."How Many Rounds Does a Double Rifle....". It looks like someone is going to ask "how many rounds does a double rifle hold"!!! I was going to refer them to Don Soter...even HE could answer that...right Don!!! :-)

Yep, just 2!

You da man!

Bailey said I can shoot Biebs new double till it is good a worked in

The gun will be worked in, and then I'll work you over!!! :-)

hahahahahahaha I'm shaking in my boot

It's "shaking" there, Shakespeare! Boy, your editor must have a full-time job, for sure! :-)

I practice suthern spellnz it's kinda like ebonics only differ ya damyankee!!!!

she does God bless her!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! she is a Saint

LOL!

All the more reason to get a Bailey Bradshaw falling block double !!!!