quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Frank, have a proper 'smith weight it up a bit. I watched Buzz C's new DVD, "Essence", and was surprised at the number of hunters with Krieghoff doubles.

Biebs:

This is a bit off topic but while the K-gun is not your traditional double, I think it is one of the best off-the-rack doubles. Frank points out one of the problems. IMHO, in the 470 and 500, are on the light side. However, Kriegoff makes a recoil reducer called a BreakO specifically for those guns. Frank, you may want to give one of those a try. 10.5 pounds is about perfect for my 500/416 but I think that's awfully light for a 500. If you want something more traditional, there is always the Chapuis and you can get them at a very good price from Dale.

If you want to see something really beautiful, go to the Krieghoff site and take a look at the Gold Imperial. That's the gun of my dreams but I am afraid it is out of my price range.

I did speak to Ken. He thinks that it may be an issue with debris. I will make an attempt to clean it.

I did get 2 boxes of Hornady DGX factory ammo yesterday. I slipped two of them in. It seemed much better with them.

I am going to work on it today.

I've had a problem similar to the one you described with a coouple of side by side shotguns. Both times it was caused by debris in the action. Which is a real nuisance to get out if it is a boxlock btw.

Well, I unfortunately know what the issue is with the gun. The chambers are simply not cut deep enough.

My guns guys cleaned it carefully and attempted to shoot it. They experienced exactly what I did.

They put a micrometer on the rims of the ammo. While different between the softs and the solids, they were BOTH within acceptable range. They measured the chambers and noted the problem.

Fun,fun, fun.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
Well, I unfortunately know what the issue is with the gun. The chambers are simply not cut deep enough.

My guns guys cleaned it carefully and attempted to shoot it. They experienced exactly what I did.

They put a micrometer on the rims of the ammo. While different between the softs and the solids, they were BOTH within acceptable range. They measured the chambers and noted the problem.

Fun,fun, fun.

WOW! And double WOW!! How did the gun leave the factory like this? How did it get regulated in that condition?

Larry,

You may be able to trim your cases a little and be able to use your gun. It may have not been noticed at factory if their ammo had a heavy crimp on the cases. I had the same thing with my first Chapuis 470, gun would close on ammo fine but after the cases were fired it looked like a shotshell crimp on the end of the cases. I had to send that one back and get another gun. You might see if you can send gun to JJ at Champlins to recut the chamber if VC will pay for it. That would save you a lot of time. It may take 8 months if you send it back to VC. Sorry that you are having this problem. Been there done that!

Sam

Sam:

Great idea. I was dreading sending this back to France.

I want to shoot elephants with this in August and October!

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
Well, I unfortunately know what the issue is with the gun. The chambers are simply not cut deep enough.

My guns guys cleaned it carefully and attempted to shoot it. They experienced exactly what I did.
They put a micrometer on the rims of the ammo. While different between the softs and the solids, they were BOTH within acceptable range. They measured the chambers and noted the problem.

Fun,fun, fun.

Larry,
Thats a real bummer. Issues like this are frustrating on a new, expensive rifle and take extra time to make sure they are corrected properly. Hopefully it will be fixed quickly and you will have a rifle you will be proud to own and it will chamber any ammo you want to toss in it.
It does makes a customer sometimes question those fantastic looking test targets from any builder.
Keep us posted as to the progress.

Thanks. My luck with big bores has sucked lately.

I have had:

> A 458 Lott with barrel bent from the factory.

> A 470 NE that I pulled the trigger 4 time. It shot 8.

Now this all in the last year.

Given one PM I received, I want to be 100% crystal clear. I have absolutely zero problem with Ken. I believe he is an incredibly honorable man. There is no "fight."

I hoped someone with far more knowledge than me might give me an idea. Apparently, at least one person took it differently.

If this came across wrong, I apologize. I am happy with Ken and his actions.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
Given one PM I received, I want to be 100% crystal clear. I have absolutely zero problem with Ken. I believe he is an incredibly honorable man. There is no "fight."

I hoped someone with far more knowledge than me might give me an idea. Apparently, at least one person took it differently.

If this came across wrong, I apologize. I am happy with Ken and his actions.

I agree Larry. Ken is top notch and I'm sure he will do what ever is necessary on his part to make the gun right.

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
It may take 8 months if you send it back to VC.

Sam

8 months, now that would be a bugger.

Ken is back. We have spoken. He has spoken with my gun guys. It all boils down to one thing. The rim thickness on the cartridges used in building/regulating the gun are THINNER than the rims in a later batch of the same ammo.

How much tolerance should a rifle have (or can have) for such a problem?

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
Ken is back. We have spoken. He has spoken with my gun guys. It all boils down to one thing. The rim thickness on the cartridges used in building/regulating the gun are THINNER than the rims in a later batch of the same ammo.

So the issue lies with Hornady quality control with their brass? I guess we all need to check our brass inventory and look for variations in rim thickness with Hornady brass? And what is the fix going to be for you?

Jorge:

I do not know what the answer will be. I am 100% confident that Ken will come up with some solution. I am thinking that it MAY be to use a different brand of ammo.

I think there is an important lesson to be learned from this. If you are hunting DG, no matter what rifle or ammo, run every single round through your gun before you go. Make sure there is no problem BEFORE you go. Can you imagine learning of this problem as an elephant is bearing down on you?

Larry, if Ken agrees just send it to JJ or any good double smith and have the chamber corrected. This will take maybe five minutes to correct. I state again only if Ken agrees!
Just a side note I find it hard to believe that this is a Hornady quality control problem, although it is possible.

Butch: only conjecture on my part on the Hornady issue, but if memory serves me right, Hornady rim brass tends to be thinner? The only other plausible explanation is the rifle was cut using another chamber dimensions with thicker rim? The fact the rifle was regulated with Hornady ammo makes it all the more puzzling.

Larry 100% concur with checking one's ammo! jorge

Gentlemen:

I can tell you unequivocally that my gun guys (not Ken) put a micrometer on the rims of ammunition from Hornady. There were 2 different batches. The measurements were substantially different.

Ken advises that both of these are larger that the ammo used when the rifle was cut and regulated.

I have no idea. All I know is that it won't shoot most of the time. It seems logical to me.

Well there is your answer right there. I have about six boxes of the Hordady stuff at home and I'm going to check evry single one of them. I'll report if I find a similar problem with the 450NE

This is not the first time in the annals of AR that deviations in rim-thickness - either between manufacturers or among batches of brass from the same manufacturer - have resulted in the same problem that Larry describes, and with DRs of several different manufacture.

Best advice in this thread is to always check every piece of ammo before taking it hunting.

Looking forward to the happy ending.

A happy ending? With Larry??? :-)

Well, we have a definitive answer and solution.

Ken put a micrometer on the ammo. I can't quote the exact specs but (for lack of a better term) the old ammo had a certain measurement. The new ammo made late last year is several thousandths thicker. Much to their surprise, Hornady came up with the same thing.

Ken also put a micrometer on other brass and found them to all be thinner than the latest Hornady ammo.

At least at this point, I think the gun is fine. Hornady is supposedly calling me. They want this ammo back and are going to replace it and make sure I have workable ammo in the future.

Gentlemen, Ken bent over backwards on this. He could not have been any more concerned or accommodating. He is a class act.

Larry,

That is great news on several fronts.

First - you have a great double that will give you years of success and happiness.

Second, you have found what I and many others have also learned - Ken Buch is a stand-up guy who goes far beyond what is necessary and expected to make his customers happy.

Third, Hornady is a stand-up company that recognized a QC problem and not only owned up to it, but is making it right by a customer who identified their problem.

To you for keeping an open mind and allowing a thorough investigation

To Ken Buch and Hornady

Great news! Say, would you mind asking Hornady if the same issues apply to 450NE ammo. To be up front, I've not experienced this but I did buy some new brass and ammo recently. jorge

Jorge:

I will ask. They have called. I was in a meeting. I will call them back tomorrow.

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:
Larry,

That is great news on several fronts.

First - you have a great double that will give you years of success and happiness.

Second, you have found what I and many others have also learned - Ken Buch is a stand-up guy who goes far beyond what is necessary and expected to make his customers happy.

Third, Hornady is a stand-up company that recognized a QC problem and not only owned up to it, but is making it right by a customer who identified their problem.

To you for keeping an open mind and allowing a thorough investigation

To Ken Buch and Hornady

I agree with 2 of these 3 statements.

Ken is top notch. No doubt about that one.

VC is a quality rifle as well.

I still have reservations on Hornady. I don't know if anyone here remembers the split case I had using Hornady Brass in my new 9.3X74R Chapuis with brand new, never before fired, brass? I spoke with a Hornady rep on the phone, who was less than enthusiastic about addressing the issue (claiming IMR 4064 is "too fast a powder for the caliber"). I got his email address and sent a full write up of the incident as well as 3 pictures of the split piece of once shot Hornday brass. I never received a return contact of any kind whatsoever. I simply will use other brands of components in the future whenever an alternative is available.

Here is a pic of that split case again if anyone remembers it.

Look out mbogo and tembo here comes Larry with his 500 Nitro Express.

Mike

Todd: I have some Hornady 450NE cases that I've reloaded at least five times without incident and with my 416 Rigby I've loaded some of those more than ten times. Maybe yours was just one bad batch? Regardless, this rim issue variance is unsatisfactory on Hornady's part. jorge

Todd:

I am with Jorge here. I have shot lots of Hornady cases over the years and I shoot their 9,3X74 brass exclusively and have never had a problem. I think they make pretty good brass but you know that some times a bad batch can escape.

Jorge and Dave,

My beef with Hornady is more in line with the attitude of the guy on the phone and the lack of follow up on their part. Just not good customer service in my case. I purchased 80 9.3X74R cases at the time and none of the others have split. Some have been shot 5 times at this point.

If you go back and read my comments on that case split (I haven't gone back to read them), I don't think I ever pointed the finger at Hornady. I was just trying to find out if this was typical of 1) Hornady, 2) The Chapius UGEX rifles, or 3) The 9.3X74R caliber itself.

Several here on AR suggested I contact Hornady and let them know of the case split. I did and they had no interest. That's fine, I'll just purchase a different brand next time, that's all. I don't shoot their bullets anyway so it's really nothing lost on their part or mine. No big deal really.

Thanks for the explanation. Whatever the case, I just hope they get their stuff in one sock. Lots of folks out there with big monies invested in these doubles and at least for me, theirs in the only source for brass

This very issue used to arise with 45-70 brass. I remember 20-25 years ago when I was starting with this stuff a discussion with a fellow that did a lot of reloading for trapdoors and then the new on the scene Ruger No 3 carbine in 45-70. All of a sudden he was seeing failure to chamber and found rim thicknesses all over the place.

I am told they have not had this problem in any other caliber.

Further, the rims should be between 30 and 40 thousandths.

I just got of the phone with Hornady. They are replacing my ammo. I am buying 13 boxes of ammo from them. They are going to put a micrometer on every round before they ship them.

Larry,

I checked several of my 500NE Cases for rim thickness. All of my cases are A-Square and have rim thickness of between .033" and .036" with a micrometer. At least to the level of accuracy that I can achieve by holding the case and micrometer in my hands.

Do you know what the measurement is on the ammo you had trouble with?

It was GREATER than .040" Todd.

O.K.,Hornady let some slip through.Mistakes happen.I am just thankful they are making the damn stuff.

When testing ammo in a double you need to do 3 things.

One in a safe place load the ammo and see if the double will close.

Two take the barrels off the frame and drop in the ammo, see if it is flush with the barrels face.

Three shoot the ammo and see how it hits, and regulates to the sights and it it Blows the double up.

Once in my 450/400 I needed some new brass and all I could find had a thicker rim. It would not fit my double, the rims were out of spec. I just filled them down a little and all was OK.

My new ammo was shipped today. Hopefully, by the weekend, I can finally shoot this gun normally.