We are thinking of having red-dots installed on two Merkel 500NE DRs for our upcoming Ele hunt.

The application would only require one base as most of the red-dots are small and have only one mounting point. Part of the drill is to keep the red-dot mounted as low as possible.

First and easiest solution would be to use a Weaver style flat bottomed base, such as the rear base made for a Savage 110, drill and tap the center rib and Loctite the base onto the center rib. Almost any red-dot with integral Weaver mount could then be put on the DR. A quality steel base, such as the WARNE, which is available in 3 heights, would be needed.

Question: Will the base hold up to the recoil?

Second, and a more involved process, would require cutting the center rib to accept the installation of a base. Definitely a requirement for a gunsmith or qualified machinist.

Question: What kind of price would this require.

Any other options anybody has used?

My personal experience with red-dots started in the early '80s using the Aimpoint on a Colt AR-15 shorty for tactical employment. I have since used the EOTech and Burris FastFire on large bore handguns and rifles on DG in africa, and I recently purchased a Bushnell red-dot to try. I have always considered them to be the fastest and most accurate target acquisition sights on the market. My eyes now make shooting accurately and consistently with open irons very difficult.

Please share your experience with mounting and use of these on DRs.

Thanks,

Go for it! I like my Red dot on my 450/400 3 inch.

quote:

Second, and a more involved process, would require cutting the center rib to accept the installation of a base. Definitely a requirement for a gunsmith or qualified machinist.

Question: What kind of price would this require.

Can not help with the price but this would be stronger.
You would also not have a problem with seeing the org sights when you take it off.
http://www.gunsinternational.c...c=100320137-14-L.JPG
http://www.gunsinternational.c...ic=100320137-5-L.JPG

Lionhunter
Do a search using "red dot"
Lots on the subject.
Nitro

When I leave next week both of my .500 doubles will be wearing "red dot" sights. On my Heym I have a Docter Optic red dot. On my Kreighoff I have a Trijicon RMR Dual Illumination. Both mounts attach to places on the rib that were machined to accommodate the bases. I would be leery of just drilling and tapping the rib and hoping that the screws will hold up to the recoil. On the Krieghoff a little plate is removed from the rib and the bottom of the base fits into the indention on the rib sort of like a dovetail. So you have the screws and the rib actually holding the base. On the Heym I had JJ do the mount. Not sure exactly what JJ does to the rib, but there is machining to the rib. My recollection is that JJ charged me around $875 for the ERA mount, the Docter Sight II Plus, the machining and shipping.

Ken Who makes these mounts? I assume the sight is a DOCTOR!

Thanks so far.

I also wondered about the ability of a base to "hold up" under drill & tap installation, but then I thought about all the bases on my large bore bolt guns and large bore revolvers. They are all held in place "only" by the screws and I've never had one fail, so why should it be any different on a DR, especially considering they fire at less pressure?

As to using the irons if removing the red-dot, well, that defeats my purpose and will not happen.

So, are we over-thinking the base installation issue and simply spending money unnecessarily when we have the center rib cut and/or a custom base made?

PM inbound to you MJines. And good luck on your upcoming hunt. CMS?

Rusty, PM also coming your way.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
Thanks so far.

I also wondered about the ability of a base to "hold up" under drill & tap installation, but then I thought about all the bases on my large bore bolt guns and large bore revolvers. They are all held in place "only" by the screws and I've never had one fail, so why should it be any different on a DR, especially considering they fire at less pressure?

As to using the irons if removing the red-dot, well, that defeats my purpose and will not happen.

So, are we over-thinking the base installation issue and simply spending money unnecessarily when we have the center rib cut and/or a custom base made?

PM inbound to you MJines. And good luck on your upcoming hunt. CMS?

Rusty, PM also coming your way.

LH you are correct on the strength of the screw down of the bases being strong enough. However, very few ribs are truly flat and level in conjunction with the both barrel’s bores. For that reason the barrels must usually be leveled and the rib milled perfectly flat and level or the scope will be canted, sometimes one ring will not be the same as the other ring when just mounted on the unaltered rib. I have a double that someone drilled and tapped the rib for Weaver scope bases, and when the empty scope rings are mounted on the bases the front one leans to the right, and the back one leans slightly to the left.


On the being able to remove and install the scope without loosing Zero that is a must if the owner can see the irons to shoot, the scope is a special purpose sight. Of course if one is mounting the scope because his eyes are so bad he has to depend on the scope then that is a different story, and irons are not needed at all. Though I have a right eye problem (I’m right handed) that makes a illuminated dot one power scope necessary so I can shoot with both eyes open, and superimpose the illuminated dot into my sight along with the target using both eyes. However for a close in fight with something like buffalo I can see the irons well enough for follow-up. At any distance I can’t see the little sticks and things that deflect bullets to cause that follow-up.

Even if your eyes are good precision instillation of scope bases is a must on any rifle!

........................................................................ .............

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
Ken Who makes these mounts? I assume the sight is a DOCTOR!

Recknagel or EAW made the base, yes it is a Doctor

MacD37-

Thanks for your input.

Most red-dots, including whichever I decide upon, only require a single base and come with a permanent Weaver type mount on the bottom, so no worry about dual ring alignment. This does not include the Trijicon devices which require an additional mount at additional cost and will likely then cause the sight to sit higher - not usually a good thing.

These red-dots are not scopes but actually reflex sights without magnification; 1x if you will. Thus they allow for shooting with both eyes open and no parallax or other issues common to scopes.
The dot does NOT have to be centered in the screen, just place it upon the POA and that will become your POI. Even if covered with mud or broken, if you can see the dot in even a corner of the screen and are able to place it upon your desired POA, that's where your bullet will hit. This has been proven repeatedly over the past 10 years in the sandbox by our brave soldiers and Marines.

Personally, I have never had an issue with loss of zero when removing and replacing a red-dot of any brand on any firearm. I have fired 500S&W revolvers with hundreds of loads, perhaps 1000s, without any problems, and likewise hundreds of rounds through RSM .458Lott rifles and have taken Buff and Ele respectively with those red-dot/firearm combinations.

I would/will have the base professionally installed. For those like us who have a few miles on our eyes, red-dot reflex sights are a wonderful way to extend our shooting years.

KEBCO-

Do you know if the Doctor Weaver mount will also fit the Burris FastFire, which appears to be the same device? I believe the answer is yes but wondered if you know?

LH

Yes burris and docter mounts are interchangable.

Nitro

OK guys, Now I need some info contacts on good gunsmiths, gunmakers and machinists who are familiar with working on DRs and capable of doing this work professionally and within a few weeks turnaround.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
MacD37-

Thanks for your input.

Most red-dots, including whichever I decide upon, only require a single base and come with a permanent Weaver type mount on the bottom, so no worry about dual ring alignment. This does not include the Trijicon devices which require an additional mount at additional cost and will likely then cause the sight to sit higher - not usually a good thing.

These red-dots are not scopes but actually reflex sights without magnification; 1x if you will. Thus they allow for shooting with both eyes open and no parallax or other issues common to scopes.
The dot does NOT have to be centered in the screen, just place it upon the POA and that will become your POI. Even if covered with mud or broken, if you can see the dot in even a corner of the screen and are able to place it upon your desired POA, that's where your bullet will hit. This has been proven repeatedly over the past 10 years in the sandbox by our brave soldiers and Marines.

Personally, I have never had an issue with loss of zero when removing and replacing a red-dot of any brand on any firearm. I have fired 500S&W revolvers with hundreds of loads, perhaps 1000s, without any problems, and likewise hundreds of rounds through RSM .458Lott rifles and have taken Buff and Ele respectively with those red-dot/firearm combinations.

I would/will have the base professionally installed. For those like us who have a few miles on our eyes, red-dot reflex sights are a wonderful way to extend our shooting years.

LH I understand the workings of the red dot sights, and they are minimally intrusive to the lines of the double rifle. In my case I need a variable scope with one power on the bottom, but can use the higher magnification to see the sticks on longer shots in heavy cover. The illuminated dot is easier for me to see with the macular degeneration that has begun to develop in my right eye, so the red dot reflex sights are not particularly useful to me because they have no magnification. They should work well for a person with two good eyes.

The Doctor, the Burris, and the Trijicon reflex sights are all strong. Ivan Carter has one of the Trijicons on his Heym 600NE. As you well know pistols are far harder on glass than rifles are.

Good luck with you set-up, and the hunting as well!

MacD37-

Sorry, I did not understand your eye sight problems. Got it now and understand why you do need a scope v. reflex sight.

Thanks and keep well,

LH

See this thread, DR gunmaker contact info is in it.
H2oboy is his screen name, Dirk Schimmel is his name.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...0101804/m/7381097281

Nitro

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
OK guys, Now I need some info contacts on good gunsmiths, gunmakers and machinists who are familiar with working on DRs and capable of doing this work professionally and within a few weeks turnaround.

I would focus on those that have been there and done this before. With time being limited you do not have the "luxury" of getting it done wrong and then having to get it fixed.

Here is a good alternative.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...521026951#8521026951

Lionhunter Mike, Lane is right a peep sight is very good for us with older eyes and no batteries to go dead. Plus they look better on a double than optics.

Sam

Lionhunter,

i have been searching for a similar sight for a bolt gun of mine.

So far, the few I've looked at "lift" the required line of sight dramatically.

Have you had a "dummy run", so to speak, to see how the fit will effect your rifle hold.

I wish someone would make one of these sights so that it mounts right down low, close to the barrel.

I also agree with Sam, and Lane, after having used Sam's peep sight on his Sabatti .500

The peep sight height is the same as the open sights, it's VERY fast to find in the eye and adds little to no weight to the gun.

Paul rolled a running bull with my Sabatti the first time he ever fired it. His comment after the shot was "I love that peep sight"

Mike, could something like this from Wayne at AHR be adapted for your purpose?

http://hunting-rifles.com/Specials/NEW%20PRODUCTS.htm

I met with a fellow today who builds sniper rifles for SpecOps teams and does not take work from the general public. I handled one of his Lapuas - very nice 1000 yard rifle. We talked at length and I left him my DR and FastFire III. We'll see what he comes up with.

It is true that most installs on a DR will heighten the optics line of sight, requiring a higher cheek weld. I intend to resolve this by using an attached cheek pad to raise the comb. Beau ordered a Trijicon RMR yesterday and will also have George do the install on his DR once the RMR arrives.

Although I am photo challenged, I will endeavor to get some pics up of both our DRs once they are completed. Confidence is high. Thanks for all the suggestions.

I sent my Merkel 470 to Herbert at Merkel USA in Alabama and he milled out a weaver style base that fits over the rib and drilled and tapped it, then you can mount whatever red dot you have with a weaver style mount. I had a pre RMR trijicon on it that gave up after 40 rounds, now have Leupold red dot on it. Mount is solid.

quote:

Originally posted by BEGNO:
I sent my Merkel 470 to Herbert at Merkel USA in Alabama and he milled out a weaver style base that fits over the rib and drilled and tapped it, then you can mount whatever red dot you have with a weaver style mount. I had a pre RMR trijicon on it that gave up after 40 rounds, now have Leupold red dot on it. Mount is solid.

Sounds like what we have planned. You have a PM. BTW, do you have a pic(s) of the finished work?

I have a MERKEL 500 NE with burris fast fire 2 and bases HENNEBERGER http://www.knarr.at/henneberger.htm henneberger 14/15 mm very simple mount

THE BEST .... Never problem after 50 bullets ceb and hornady

I had a Doctor red dot installed on a Heym PH. I bought the sight from Optics Planet, the base from our own New Guy and JJ at Champlin did the work on the rib. I seem to remember that sight, base and installation cost about $1K.
I don't have field experience but was concerned how sturdy the system would be when handled by trackers in and out of a truck.

It's DOCTER not DOCTOR. Great sights by the way. I'm having one on my Heym 88 .375 Flanged.

I had JJ put on a Docter on my 500 NE VC. I love it. It is so fast it is amazing.

I posted this on the optics forum but no replies, so perhaps someone here may know the answer.

The Docter Optics and the Burris FastFire appear to be the same device and likely made in the same factory. They fit the same mounts - as does the Trijicon RMR. Does anyone know if there are ANY differences between the two devices, other than cost and service? Service and prices are much better on the Burris FastFire red-dot.

I have used both the FFII and now have the FFIII which has the battery compartment lid on the top and easier adjustments for windage and elevation but uses a different battery. Great improvements.

I'm no expert, but think the Trijicon mounting base is different from the Burris and docter, which do use the same base.

Mike,
I cannot answer your question...but I can say I have a FastFire II on my AR-10 and it has held up to 1000's of rounds. Don't think you could go wrong with it.

Here's the latest plan after a great conversation with a tech at WARNE:

Warne M864/864M base set for Marlin 336. These are flat bottomed and low height. Only need one for each DR, so one set will do both DRs. These come standard with the heavy duty 8-40 screws included.

We will fill the rail grooves with LocTite under the base for additional hold. I will mount my FastFire III approximately 7"-7.5" IFO the breech. This is similar to positioning the FFIII on the forward base of a bolt rifle, which worked very well on my 2011 Ele hunt. This position also seems to allow for more peripheral vision than mounting it on top of the breech, as is sometimes seen.

Beau will mount his Trijicon RMR similarly on his DR. We're waiting on product delivery. The "new" RMR he received Tuesday appeared to have been installed and removed, along with the Trijicon Weaver base, so they are being returned for exchange.

BTW, the German made Henneberger bases look great in the pics, but I had difficulty getting information in english, so after trying for 3 days, I opted to go with the made in America Warne bases, which are also readily available at 1/4 the cost.

Thanks again to all the AR players for your suggestions, advice and help.

Mike,
There was a study done a couple years ago on scope/mount failures on the big bores. One thing that was discovered was that many failures were due to the standard 6X48 screws breaking or stripping. It was strongly recommended that 8X40 screws be used.
Cheers.
Tim