Was the 600 Nitro Express created just to "One Up" the

577 Nitro Express ala the Weatherby line of cartridges?

Pondoro said that the 500 NE was the unneeded caliber.

If a man wanted bigger than 475 #2 Jeffery he was best

served by opting for a 577 or 600 and skipping the 500.

Jack - the 600 was designed from the ground up by Jeffery in 1903 as a cordite cartridge, and pushes a 900-grain bullet at 1950 fps for over 7500 ft/lbs of energy. At the time, nothing else came close to matching that.

Terry Wieland does a good job of answering your question as to “whyâ€:

"The purpose of the .600 from the day it was born was to be a weapon of the professional ivory hunter, kept in reserve for elephant in the thickest brush, or when you could expect a close-quarters charge. It was assumed the professional would do the bulk of his hunting with a 470-class double or a 416-class bolt action rifle. Since the .600 would be used rarely, and then only in the direst of circumstances, it would not be carried day in and day out, so weight was not a concern. Its 16-18 pounds would be borne by a gunbearer most of the time."

It was never meant to be “practical†for everyday use.

I must disagree with TW on this. A hunter does not know ahead of time when he will face a wounded jumbo in thick brush ready to charge. So if the rifle is not carried day in and day out, it will not serve its intended function.

I sure wish Wieland would be more careful with his research.

Initially, the .577 and .600 Nitro Expresses were parallel developments. The original 2.8" version of the .600 dates back to January, 1899. The revisions that resulted in the final 3" version are shown in Kynoch drawings in June, 1902. I don't have the drawing handy, but at one time IIRC, Kynoch loaded the 2.8" version with 800 grain bullets and 120 grains of Cordite on Jeffery's responsibility.

Demand volume was never high for either, especially so the .600. Had the final version of the .600 not appeared about the time that the enforcement errors of India's famous "ban" became acute, I imagine far fewer would have been built.
------------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Yea, right. Not the way I heard it.

The 600 is a RECENT development that came out of a contemporary poll of DG.

UNtil recently, the hunting community had no way of communicating with DG. One man came upon the scene that was able to channel the thoughts of the mighty cape buffalo.

Once the communications were eatablished, a statistically valid poll was taken of 1000 male cape buffalo in southern Africa. The second most common response to the query of how the animal wanted to die was to be slain by a 600 Nitro Express bullet (the top response among those polled being "old age").

Thereafter, a 600 nitro express double was created with mystical properties (some say is was made by melting the Excaliber sword) for use by one and only one great hunter- that being he who can read the buffalo's mind, known by the native population as Bwana BS.

The Hunter slew many a beast with this magical weapon.

But alas, He-Who-Must-Be-Filmed relinquished the mighty double. Few know why. The bush telegraph submits that it was because it killed too quickly and cleanly and thus was deemed inappropriate for video sales. As mortals, we will never know for sure.

So, while the caliber may have been around for 100 years, it is not until recently that one worthy enough was able to extract the double from the stone.

Let's make sure we get our history right, OK?

The other nice thing about the mythical weapon is that it didn't care what the twist rate was!

You can make fun of the .600 all you want, but from my experience the game damn sure knew sit was hit when one of those blunt 900 grain, 62 caliber bullets intercepted its body. I might add I knew it when target shooting as well! It was an interesting few trips with it.

quote:

Originally posted by AfricanHunter:
You can make fun of the .600 all you want, but from my experience the game damn sure knew sit was hit when one of those blunt 900 grain, 62 caliber bullets intercepted its body. I might add I knew it when target shooting as well! It was an interesting few trips with it.

(Except for the Tembo in which W.D.M. Bell's "big, strapping acquainance who handled the 600 about as easily as the average man handles a 12-bore bird gun" planted 12 rounds of 600 Nitro bullets, after which the varmint just vanished, never to be found again........)

quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:
I sure wish Wieland would be more careful with his research.

Initially, the .577 and .600 Nitro Expresses were parallel developments. The original 2.8" version of the .600 dates back to January, 1899. The revisions that resulted in the final 3" version are shown in Kynoch drawings in June, 1902. I don't have the drawing handy, but at one time IIRC, Kynoch loaded the 2.8" version with 800 grain bullets and 120 grains of Cordite on Jeffery's responsibility.

Demand volume was never high for either, especially so the .600. Had the final version of the .600 not appeared about the time that the enforcement errors of India's famous "ban" became acute, I imagine far fewer would have been built.
------------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

400NE,

If Kynoch loaded the 2.8" version of the 600ne why are there no known cases to exist? I have a pretty extensive British sporting ammunition collection and a "few" 600ne)) All the serious collectors I know that chase 600's have never seen a 2.8" case. There has never been one at auction. Not trying to stir up a hornets nest just making an observation based on my years of collecting and conversing with other serious collectors.

*Again 400NitroExpress has cleared my head. I'd thought that

the 600NE was a little newer cartridge than the 577NE, and

therefore a move by Jeffery to "one-up" the sitting "Big-Boy" -

the 577NE. Mark reports these two were parallel developments.

So, those behind the 577NE and those behind the 600NE were

both, at the same time, after the same market. O.K. - thanks.

*To New_Guy, True that the 600 is more powerful than the 577,

but they were both used identically in their "day". Very close

to elephant, in very thick cover. And by all reports that I

have come across, the 577 had many more users than the 600

back in the day of the pro ivory hunter. I am saying the T.W.

attributed reasoning for the existance of the 600NE can be

applied to the 577NE equally. The 700NE does NOT have that

benifit, it being the second choice of the first ever owner.

*To Jim M., Thanks for the humor, it's always a welcome diversion

from all this serious stuff we ponder!

Kynoch factory drawings show the cartridge and notes in the Kynoch records indicate two different loads were loaded for Jeffery. In Fleming's book, both of the loads listed for the 2.8" are from Kynoch. One is for a round nose cupro-nickel hollow point and the other for a round nose cupro-nickel soft nose, both 800 grains. However, the 2.8" round pictured is clearly from Eley Brothers, not Kynoch. There is no question that Kynoch loaded it, and the photo seems to indicate that perhaps Eley did as well. There is also an appendix in Fleming that gives dimensions of British sporting rifle cartridges. These are of cartridges from collections, not merely recitations of max cartridge standards. Bullet diameters taken from the 2.8" samples are listed as from .618" to .620", meaning that measurements were taken from two or more samples of the cartridge.

Doesn't seem to be any question that samples of the 2.8" .600 survive. It is not surprising that they are quite rare.
------------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Corbin, The FIRST car built by ROYCE of ROLLS

ROYCE was dismantled for parts early on by

ROYCE himself if I recall. This was before the

marketer ROLLS became a partner in the

automobile company that has become so well

known. The car did exist, then it did not.

Perhaps a small number of the 2.8" version of

the 600 were produced, and no one ever secreted

any away.

Jim,

this is the AR community policing team speaking...put the crack pipe down and step away...you will not be harmed, we only want to help you get well again! I repeat, put the crack pipe down and step away...



Rich
DRSS

When black powder ruled in Africa before the turn of the centuary, it was customary for hunters to carry a BP 500-577 caliber rifle for non-dangerous game as well as the cats and possibly buffalo. The 8 Bore rifle was carried for rhino and elephant. Typically the hunter carried the smaller bore for day to day activities and only took over the 8 Bore when closing on an elephant or wounded rhino, buffalo or elephant.

When the 600 Nitro came out in final form in 1902 the first smokeless powder cartridges had only been out for a few years, 4 or 5 at the most. Hunters were just learning how deadly effecient they were and many were not entirely convinced that a 480 grain bullet from a 450 3 1/4" nitro rifle was as good a killer as their old 8 Bore BP rifles using 1250 grain or larger bullets. To answer this concern the British gun makers produced the larger 577-600 Nitro rifles. As Taylor put it no one was expected to carry their 13 1/2 lb 577 or 16-18 lb 600 all day. Their lighter bolt rifle or 450 + was to be carried all day. The biggies were designed to be used to follow up a wounded elephant, rhino or buffalo or to be used under specuial circumstances such as a particulary difficult shot in heavy bush. Although a few such as Sutherland and Rushby were tough enough to use them as their main weapon.

465H&H

I don’t know about the shorter case 600 but I have seen and handled a 600 that was stamped for the “light†load 900 gr bullets at 1850 fps verses the standard load of 900 gr bullets at 1950. This may also be what is called a tropical load. I don’t remember the actual weight of this rifle but I did think it was really really light for a 600.
So why a 700??
Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Cooley:
So why a 700??
Bill

The 700NE was a day dream cartridge commisioned by an American, to Holland& Holland. They agreed to build it only if he furnished the cases, and paid for a test barrel for the proof house to develope the pressure loads, and funrish all the ammo to regulate the rifle full price up front! For all practical purposes it is not worth the effort. Though it does drop elephant in their tracks, it must weight in at around 25 lbs, and is, IMO only a "LOOK AT ME" cartridge of someone who just has to have something nobody else has!

Quite a few 100 Cordite rifles were built, and Jeffery pushed that version. The rest were 110 Cordite.

No "need" for the .700, just a gee whiz exercise.
--------------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

If I remember correctly there was also a 120 grain cordite loading.

465H&H

MacD37,

You are a little off on your weight. A Searcy 700 double with 26" barrels weighs 17.1 lbs. Still heavy, but not nearly as bad as 25 or 26 lbs.

quote:

Originally posted by bigdoggy700:
MacD37,

You are a little off on your weight. A Searcy 700 double with 26" barrels weighs 17.1 lbs. Still heavy, but not nearly as bad as 25 or 26 lbs.

Bigdoggy700, you've got a gut for punishment! Most tiny little 577NE doubles weigh in at around 13, 14 pounds, and the 600NEs are running 17, to 20 pounds.
Did you request the 700NE be built at 17.1, or is that the weight he builds them always?

The weight is really immaterial to me, because I see absolutely no need for even the 600NE, and the 577NE is questionable today! Anything above the 500NE has too long a recovery time, to get off a second shot, to suit me,and even a 155 howetzer will wound on occasion.

Holland built the first .700 at 22 pounds.
-------------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

The real reason for the .600 was that an elephant can only run about 30mph. If you can keep loading and shooting the .600 real quick, it will kick you backwards faster than that and keep you perfectly safe.

The 700 nitro Searcy that I own had two previous owners. Steve Ferguson(700 nitro) and Tom Ordes( Safari Kid). I traded Tom last Feb. for it. So I guess Steve had it made that way. It is regulated with 160 grains of Reloader 15. It gets 1998 ft/sec with a 1000 grain bullet. That gives you about 120-125 ft.lbs of recoil. You certainly notice it, but the recoil velocity, which you feel more, is fairly slow. A 9 1/2 lb 460 weatherby with the old 2700 ft/sec loads slaps your shoulder alot harder and quicker than the 17 lb- 700 nitro does. I think my limit is a 13.6 lb 600 overkill with loads out to 2300-2400 ft/sec. Recoil is 175 to 200 ft.lbs. That is all I care for. What amazes me is these guys shooting 1000grain bullets at 3250 ft/sec in a 25 lb gun. You are getting into 300 ft/lbs of recoil. I am not sure I want to go there. OUCH

I rember the weight on this one to be about 12 lb. Way to light of a 600 for me.

The story I read in the Double Gun Journal reported that H&H had built the "last 600NE" for a customer with great fanfare. The guy that talked them into the 700 really wanted a 600 but could not get them to build one.

At some later point they began making 600s again after reaching some kind of agreement with the owner of the "last" one. Orders are reportadly strong.

Brett

I have advertised the Heym 600NE for a few years and never sold one. Finally brought one in and was able to sell it at the DSC convention. I would be amazed if H&H has "strong orders" for 600NEs.

One of the stranger things about the .600 N.E is that Kynoch actually made more than 50 000 cartridges.

One wonder how many was sold, and where are the rest?

quote:

Originally posted by husky:
One of the stranger things about the .600 N.E is that Kynoch actually made more than 50 000 cartridges.

One wonder how many was sold, and where are the rest?

HUSKY, I would imagine a full 90% of those 50,000 rounds are in cartridge collections around the world, owned by people who have never seen a 600NE double rifle.

quote:

in cartridge collections....owned by people who have never seen a 600NE double rifle.

Like me!

Cheers,
Canuck

Haven't been on this forum for a few years but decided to rejoin
now time permits.

Jeffrey made a 577 3 1/4" NE in Oct 1900 (Underlever Hammer Gun)
which is virually identical to the first Jeffrey 600 NE made in Feb 1901,
also a Underlever Hammer Gun.

Therefore can it be assumed that the 577 3 1/4" NE in Oct 1900
was a test run to the 600 made shortly there after ?

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
Haven't been on this forum for a few years but decided to rejoin
now time permits.

Jeffrey made a 577 3 1/4" NE in Oct 1900 (Underlever Hammer Gun)
which is virually identical to the first Jeffrey 600 NE made in Feb 1901,
also a Underlever Hammer Gun.

Therefore can it be assumed that the 577 3 1/4" NE in Oct 1900
was a test run to the 600 made shortly there after ?

Great piece of info, 500N, welcome back!

MacD37

Thanks

Had to change to 500N from 500Nitro as it has been
deleted and takn by someone else but never mind.

I have occasionally logged on and read some of the posts - and seen that some of the originals are still around !!!

Re the dates in my previosu post, they are fixed so so all other "cartridge development" dates etc have to proceed these dates.

One thing I would like to knw is if there are any other 577 3 1/4" NE guns out there made around this time, by Jeffrey or someone else.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
MacD37

Thanks

Had to change to 500N from 500Nitro as it has been
deleted and takn by someone else but never mind.

I know what you mean! I had to drop my screen name when the web-site changed servers, also I list over 10,000 posts in that process. My name used to be the same all over cyberspace! It used to be DUGABOY1, and still is everyplace else! The MacD37 screen name was my old company computer I.D. for SABRE network at my work, before I retired!

Well that's water under the bridge, so again welcome back, we need more double rifle people here, and the DRSS needs more members.

Mac

and the DRSS needs more members. beer

Tell me more - I have followed it abot and thought I might
try to get over one day as part of another trip but getting
the guns in would be fun !!!

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
Tell me more - I have followed it abot and thought I might
try to get over one day as part of another trip but getting
the guns in would be fun !!!

500N, all you need to be a member of the DRSS is say you want to be a member, and place the DRSS on your sig line on this website! If you can get over for one our little get togethers, and you don't want to go through the process of importing your double rifle, you would be welcome to use one of mine for the hunt, and shooting at the ranch! You can fly into D/FW and rifde to the ranch with me. The ranch we have now, is about 230 miles from Dallas, Texas, and is just about the closest airport! That isn't a problem, however, as even if I can't make it for some reason, there will be others driveing down from the D/FW area! We even had two members at the last one from RSA, and many of the members live thousands of miles away, in the states, and Canada. We usually have one right after the Dallas Safari Club convention in Dallas in January, but it is cold, and icey. then we usually have one in summer, which would likely be more like home to you with the heat in OZ.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
Tell me more - I have followed it abot and thought I might
try to get over one day as part of another trip but getting
the guns in would be fun !!!

500N, all you need to be a member of the DRSS is say you want to be a member, and place the DRSS on your sig line on this website! If you can get over for one our little get togethers, and you don't want to go through the process of importing your double rifle, you would be welcome to use one of mine for the hunt, and shooting at the ranch! You can fly into D/FW and rifde to the ranch with me. The ranch we have now, is about 230 miles from Dallas, Texas, and is just about the closest airport! That isn't a problem, however, as even if I can't make it for some reason, there will be others driveing down from the D/FW area! We even had two members at the last one from RSA, and many of the members live thousands of miles away, in the states, and Canada. We usually have one right after the Dallas Safari Club convention in Dallas in January, but it is cold, and icey. then we usually have one in summer, which would likely be more like home to you with the heat in OZ.

500N:

I have been to three (3) DRSS weekend hunts/shoots. I can tell you, without any doubt, that the time in the company of these gentlemen is AWESOME. Because of my career, young family and long term financial plans, I do not get to hunt as often as I would like. However, I will NOT miss an opportunity to attend any future DRSS weekends. Yeah, I tell the wife that I's flying to Texas to go hunting with the guys, but what I look forward to most is the company of these fellas and just seeing so many beautiful DRs at one place.

We are having the next DRSS weekend in June of this year - June 15 to 18 to be exact. You are MORE THAN WELCOME TO COME, but understand that logistically it might be hard. Here is a link to the thread planning the event:

https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/760101804/m/231100136

The invitation is open.

I am the unofficial "official" person who does the organizing of these hunt for the group and plan to start organizing our next hunt (around the DSC show) in the next few months.

Thanks

The one in Jan may be easier as I come over for next years Shot Show.

June is a hard time for me t get to the US !

Roger that, 500N.

Keep checking AR's DR Forum - we'll start planning the January event in the next few months.

Cheers,

quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:
Kynoch factory drawings show the cartridge and notes in the Kynoch records indicate two different loads were loaded for Jeffery. In Fleming's book, both of the loads listed for the 2.8" are from Kynoch. One is for a round nose cupro-nickel hollow point and the other for a round nose cupro-nickel soft nose, both 800 grains. However, the 2.8" round pictured is clearly from Eley Brothers, not Kynoch. There is no question that Kynoch loaded it, and the photo seems to indicate that perhaps Eley did as well. There is also an appendix in Fleming that gives dimensions of British sporting rifle cartridges. These are of cartridges from collections, not merely recitations of max cartridge standards. Bullet diameters taken from the 2.8" samples are listed as from .618" to .620", meaning that measurements were taken from two or more samples of the cartridge.

Doesn't seem to be any question that samples of the 2.8" .600 survive. It is not surprising that they are quite rare.
------------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

400NE,

I understand what you are saying about the 2.8" version. There was only one that has ever been pictured and there is some question among us serious collectors as to it's origin and authencitiy. That is the only know one and it is gone into the abyss. No one knows were it is for review. It is of the opinion of our group of serious British cartridge collectors that there was never a 2.8" version made from the plant only drawings (there are several others that drawings exist but no examples) and the version that was floating around 20 years ago was just a regular 600 than someone had shortened and submitted when the books were being compiled. Not all cartridges in the books you are refering to were original offerings and some are in fact made up. There is one in Bill Flemings book that is not real. If you want to call me to discuss send me an email with your phone number and I would be glad to call and chat. corbinshell@mindspring.com

Oh yea I have in my posession the 600 NE for Mauser bolt guns box by Jeffery. It is photographed in Hoyem Vol 3.
Pretty sweeeeeeeet.