quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:

quote:

First, you always hear the argument that "use of CNC makes it possible to make more precise and reliable parts than an old gun"
Well then, why don't they?

Crap! I wish I had said this.
Cal

Like I said before you won't find a maker who isn't using modern CNC equipment or buying from someone who is. Remember that the quality out is only as good as what is called out in the specks.
Bill

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:

quote:

Originally posted by INTJ:
So here who has compared an new H&H double side-by-side with a vintage one? What specifically are the differences in quality?

Engraving is one example. Over the last century engraving has become for course,i.e. less fine scroll and more flamboyant. Not that that is bad, it is what the public wants and buys.
Cal

So the reason a modern H&H is considered poor quality compared to a vintage double is because the modern rifle has a differnt style of engraving?

I think a truly objective evaluation will show different guys like different stuff and their reasons vary. To ascribe anything more than that to this debate is error.

I think it's cool that some guys like vintage doubles better than anything else. I think its cool there are those who can afford new H&H doubles. Hopefully, when I get my Sabatti regulated to my liking, these same guys will be happy for me having a well-regulated, strong, reliable double that I'll have less than $5K into. If not, oh well........

quote:

Originally posted by INTJ:

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:

quote:

Originally posted by INTJ:
So here who has compared an new H&H double side-by-side with a vintage one? What specifically are the differences in quality?

Engraving is one example. Over the last century engraving has become for course,i.e. less fine scroll and more flamboyant. Not that that is bad, it is what the public wants and buys.
Cal

So the reason a modern H&H is considered poor quality compared to a vintage double is because the modern rifle has a differnt style of engraving?

I think a truly objective evaluation will show different guys like different stuff and their reasons vary. To ascribe anything more than that to this debate is error.

I think it's cool that some guys like vintage doubles better than anything else. I think its cool there are those who can afford new H&H doubles. Hopefully, when I get my Sabatti regulated to my liking, these same guys will be happy for me having a well-regulated, strong, reliable double that I'll have less than $5K into. If not, oh well........

ITNJ:
This is a classic example of how things get distorted on AR threads. You originally asked for differences. I replied. Now you respond with "poor quality. I never said this, you did. I wrote prior that quality is quality, regardless of age. My opinion is I like finer engraving as it takes more time and more skill than more elaborate and less fine engraving. I said nothing of it being of poor quality. In fact I said times change and tastes change. Nothing more, nothing less.
Cheers, mate.
Cal

I asked for differences in QUALITY, and you mention engraving. What was I supposed to think other than the engraving on modern $100K+ isn't as good of quality than on the vintage doubles? Isn't that what you meant?

I found Mikes comment on gun fit interesting. I'm 6'2" and have no problem with many prewar doubles. If anything it is drop at comb(especially on pre-1900 doubles)I need to pay attention to, LOP is rarely an issue for me unless the gun was cut or ordered especially short. 14&1/4" or so fits me just fine in a rifle.

If anything engraving today is vastly better than 100yrs ago, if one is willing to pay for it.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Little:
If anything engraving today is vastly better than 100yrs ago...

Vastly better?
That is quite a claim there...

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Little:
If anything engraving today is vastly better than 100yrs ago, if one is willing to pay for it.

Could you post an example of the modern engraving that is "vastly better" please.

Some of the "vintage" engraving.


https://www.facebook.com/video...907155479503&theater

Some more vintage engraving.

http://images.gunsinternationa...m/dyn/DGJ_Su-131.pdf

If an engraver today did this type of work they would be ridiculed. These animal scenes seemed to be common from that time period. The animals on my Boswell are very similar. Other than the cartoonish animals the work itself appears to be good.


It even seems that a quasi famous 600 Wilkes is afflicted with similar engraving.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
I know what you gents mean by the animals. I have a Wilkes .600, best quality in every aspect, but the animals look like they were engraved by the engraver's kindergarten kid when he was on a lunch break!
Cal

Vastly better??? I am no where near qualified to make a judgment, however I truly believe there was good and bad quality engraving in both periods.

BTW the engraving on my K-Gun is perfect. There is not one error, blemish, or any kind of imperfection.


PS The K-Gun has no engraving.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Little:
If anything engraving today is vastly better than 100yrs ago, if one is willing to pay for it.

What?? Surely you jest sir.

Just look at this gaur from my 1906 Jeffery .450 No. 2. Have you ever seen a more realistic engraving? The wild ox practically charges you. This is true sample of the engraving arts!

Obviously I am just kidding around. I like to think this type of period engraving (along with the Birmingham tigers) is so bad it's good; 'quaint' I think is the word for it.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:
Some more vintage engraving.

http://images.gunsinternationa...m/dyn/DGJ_Su-131.pdf

If an engraver today did this type of work they would be ridiculed. These animal scenes seemed to be common from that time period. The animals on my Boswell are very similar. Other than the cartoonish animals the work itself appears to be good.


It even seems that a quasi famous 600 Wilkes is afflicted with similar engraving.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
I know what you gents mean by the animals. I have a Wilkes .600, best quality in every aspect, but the animals look like they were engraved by the engraver's kindergarten kid when he was on a lunch break!
Cal

Vastly better??? I am no where near qualified to make a judgment, however I truly believe there was good and bad quality engraving in both periods.

BTW the engraving on my K-Gun is perfect. There is not one error, blemish, or any kind of imperfection.


PS The K-Gun has no engraving.

The examples you posted above were engraved in England, But only the scroll, the space where the animals were left blank and the animals were engraved later in India. The scroll is very well done, and there is no way the animals were done by the same person. However the Rhino is not so cartoonish if you look a picture of an Asian rhino, they are pretty cartoonish too!

There are many examples of this in the double rifles that were sent to India for Englishman living there.

The two animals on that rifle were Indian rhino, and tiger neither of which are native to Africa.

I know several people who own very fine rifles that came from India that have the same type of animals engraved on them.

............................................................................................

Mac,

The attachment with the photo I posted is of Hemingway's 577.

There is not even a suggestion in the article (which happens to be about the provenance of Hemingway's double) that particular rifle ever went to India much less was engraved there.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:
Mac,

The attachment with the photo I posted is of Hemingway's 577.

There is not even a suggestion in the article (which happens to be about the provenance of Hemingway's double) that particular rifle ever went to India much less was engraved there.

Mike I realize that the WR double was Himingway's But the provenance also doesn't say the rifle was made for Himingway, only that he owned it. there is nothing in the provenance that says he bought the WR double new from Westley Richards, and I'd bet my next retirement check that he bought it used and that the animal engraving was not done at Westley Richards, but in India. Himingway bought most of his rifles and shotguns from Abercrombie & Fitch in New York city.

......................................................................

Mac,

Why do you not read the article instead of making assumptions?

I never said the rifle was built for Hemingway. It was originally built for S. H. Christy. There a couple of hypotheses on how it ended up in Hemingway's hands, neither of which have anything to do with India.

But of course nothing bad could ever come out of Birmingham or anywhere in England so I am sure the rifle was sent to India to have the cartoons engraved on it.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:
Mac,

Why do you not read the article instead of making assumptions?

I never said the rifle was built for Hemingway. It was originally built for S. H. Christy. There a couple of hypotheses on how it ended up in Hemingway's hands, neither of which have anything to do with India.

But of course nothing bad could ever come out of Birmingham or anywhere in England so I am sure the rifle was sent to India to have the cartoons engraved on it.

............Case closed!

Not counting some of the Italian bulino engravers all one needs to do is Google people like Phil Coggan, Brown brothers, Marcus hunt...and there are many other modern British engravers. The work these guys can do is impeccable to say the least. There is a reason engravers claim this is the golden age of engraving, the work was no where near matched by any pre wwII engraver. If one includes the rather new style of bulino engraving, introduced and refined by the Italians, well lets just say it's even more impressive. Now lets add Winston Churchill to the mix. Obviously money is of huge importance to the level of engraving, but even 100 yrs ago limitless money could not have bought engraving up to the level that can be achieved today due to new methods and refinements.

quote:

quasi famous 600 Wilkes

Just "quasi?" Really?
Cal

How about infamous, or maybe that would be the current owner.

You guys always lose me when the debate on double rifle quality inevitably goes to a discussion on engraving. As a lad of about 12, I noticed in the Remington catalog firearms with gold inlays and gold triggers. I pointed that out to my dad, a blue collar millworker and master wood craftsman. He dismissed it as silly, and I guess that was the point in time that formed my view on ornamentation of firearms.

I apologize for being so out of step with the rest of you, and I will now go back to my lurk mode.......

quote:

Originally posted by INTJ:
You guys always lose me when the debate on double rifle quality inevitably goes to a discussion on engraving. As a lad of about 12, I noticed in the Remington catalog firearms with gold inlays and gold triggers. I pointed that out to my dad, a blue collar millworker and master wood craftsman. He dismissed it as silly, and I guess that was the point in time that formed my view on ornamentation of firearms.

I apologize for being so out of step with the rest of you, and I will now go back to my lurk mode.......

For what it is worth, I've always been turned on to fine wood far more than engraving.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by INTJ:
You guys always lose me when the debate on double rifle quality inevitably goes to a discussion on engraving. As a lad of about 12, I noticed in the Remington catalog firearms with gold inlays and gold triggers. I pointed that out to my dad, a blue collar millworker and master wood craftsman. He dismissed it as silly, and I guess that was the point in time that formed my view on ornamentation of firearms.

I apologize for being so out of step with the rest of you, and I will now go back to my lurk mode.......

I do believe you asked the best question so far on this thread and it still has not been answered.

quote:

Originally posted by INTJ:
So here who has compared an new H&H double side-by-side with a vintage one? What specifically are the differences in quality?

I think that one must not lose sight of the matter of comparative expense lavished on a firearm from two different eras.
Pre WW1, the engraver was one of the lowest paid craftsmen involved in the production of a firearm, now, he would likely be the highest paid of them all.
Also, don't make the mistake of thinking that today's engravers are more skilled than those of the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Look to other examples of engraving other than firearms and you will see uncomparable work. Just happens that today gun buyers will pay for high quality engraving but there just isn't much demand for engravers of much else.

I doubt that many master engravers would claim that the best pre war engravers were less talented or capable than the best of today.
Look at the exhibition Charles Dalys and the original St. George sidelock Greener and then realize that these were done with hand tools only, no pneumatic gravers as are used today.

I like fine wood to but don't like stock carving.
This isn't the first time that engraving has ben a topic. I think the fact that people have different taste in engraving is a good thing. I can remember when every one was gaga over this engraving by Roland Baptiste
http://rbaptiste.com/rbaptiste.com/Home.html
I bet if you ask he can duplicate the early stile of engraving.
Bill

I think, to go down this road, we must first establish or define what is meant by value, or quality.

Another point, would be that, there are many guys who love guns, and buy/sell/trade/collect them. Mr Pappas, is certainly not only a collector, but one who collects fine weapons. There are also guys who want a hunting gun, and are much less interested in amassing a fine collection.


The older guns certainly have an advantage in character, and history. Many have the right "look" because they have stood the weathered test of time. But, that test, can also have done things to them that the buyer must be well aware of when looking.


Newer guns, while they lack the same character, have an established company standing behind them. Even Sabatti, who made right any flaws your gun may have. Which can be important to the new shooter, just breaking into the market.



Also, price is a very big deal. You can get into the double rifle game, for a little over 2K with a 9.3x74 or 45-70 Sabatti, and have a double that is what many are looking for. A "hunting grade double" on the budget they can afford. There are a lot of people who can't, or won't pay 12+ K for the really fine doubles.



Another thing to consider is taste.

Personally, I much prefer a top lever, or top lever hammer gun, to a bottom lever my last preference is for a bottom lever hammer gun.

So personally, I'd much rather have a new 5K Chapuis, or 3K Sabatti, that is what I want, than an older "cheap" BP double, that isn't what I want, it was just more affordable.



I think there's certainly a break even point. Fine as they are, I could never pay for a new Searcy rifle. Not when I could have the rifle I really want a 450-400 3 1/4 top lever hammer gun, for a similar price (20's) But there is certainly a market, and role for the less expensive rifles.